Aggressive Youngster

[Wheels]

where are you based EQUIDAE?

I agree that introducing someone else might upset the apple cart further but that would depend on WHO you introduce! A really good horseman/woman would no doubt be of benefit as they really can get the best out of types like this

 

[Wheels]

& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?

 

[EQUIDAE]

Firstly in your case I would be teaching him to yield his hindquarters away - he can't kick you if you are able to send his hindquarters in the opposite direction. Once practised it can be done at quite a distance which sounds like it could be of great benefit to you! The easiest way to start this off is to stand at his shoulder, take a feel on the lead rope so he slightly flexes his head towards you and then you have two options - you can either use the back of your hand on his quarters or you can just try purposefully walking into his space by making a small half circle from shoulder to quarters, all you want at first is a step and then you can build it up from there, more steps, bigger distances. Sometimes they react well if you gently swing the lead rope towards the quarters (without touching) and this might also be a safer option for you. The biggest aid in this case is your intent!!

This is exactly what I would normally do but I have only been able to get a leadrope on him in the past couple of days. I'd say we have mastered standing still and not trying to rear or bolt .

I can however now get him to back up from posture and voice. Whereas before he would have spun and been off with someone coming into his space, now he will take a few steps back.

Sadly he will not allow you to touch him any further down than the base of his neck - his withers are out of bounds yet. Trying to touch him further round his body just results in him spinning round - I know this is what the aim of the exercise is but it needs to be me asking him, not him trying to get away from me.

I do feel for the poor boy but we will get there

 

[fburton]

Decent horsemanship replicates these relationships. A horse with no respect for you is always going to be untrustworthy and at times, dangerous.

Well, this is certainly the NH view, and perhaps the traditional one too? It isn't the only valid or effective one. You could also obtain the behaviours you want and call this 'respect' (if you must) rather than trying to obtain 'respect' first and expecting good behaviour to flow from that. Getting good behaviour needn't necessarily involve 'tough love' (which sounds like a euphemism for...?), whereas who you suggest seems to imply that 'tough love' is mandatory to get respect, which itself is needed to obtain good behaviour. That's what it sounds like anyway - please correct me if I have misread you!

 

[fburton]

& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?

Yup, teaching needs some kind of interaction!

 

[EQUIDAE]

& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?

I'm not 'not' doing anything with him. Actually just catching him has been a major success! And by catching I mean him coming to me willingly, not chasing him around until he gives in, or bribing with treats.

He will back up.

I can attach a lead rope and he's no longer trying to bolt or rear.

3 things you couldn't do 3 weeks ago, hardly not doing anything.

2 weeks ago it took two of us to get him out to the field, now he will stand calmly with the lead rope attached and tension on it.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Yup, teaching needs some kind of interaction!

Erm I am interacting with him... Every day

 

[Wheels]

please don't get defensive - people are only trying to help

you had said somewhere that schooling wasn't the answer so you either are schooling or you aren't schooling lol

anyway probably just a mis communication

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I would have recommended using a good Horsemanship trainer but seems you have made your mind up already about it. Done correctly there is no endless cantering round in circles and there certainly is no flooding or learned helplessness. But something you said says it all, doing things on the horse's terms. If you let the horse do something on their terms you are letting them be the boss and that's where all your problems will stem from. In the wild a badly behaved youngster gets some tough love, indeed I see it every day with my yearling colts who are turned out in a mixed herd. Decent horsemanship replicates these relationships. A horse with no respect for you is always going to be untrustworthy and at times, dangerous.

agree with all this.

It's his mind that I am most worried about - though he is slowly coming round

I'm not babying him though - all of my horses have been with me from youngsters and have turned out well rounded individuals. I hate 'spoile youngster syndrome' - a mare who I just sold was like that. I'm not planning on sending him away to be backed - he will be staying here as all of my others have (he will be my 8th I have backed).

I have an instructor who comes out once a week to give me lessons who also schools my 5yo stallion - she teaches him something new and I continue it. I'm not adverse to getting trainers in but my experience when I was having issues with him was that they tended to be over rough with him as he was a stallion - took ages to find someone who fitted. He didn't need rough handling he just needed someone who was firm but kind.

It is being sorted NOW - but he isn't your average two year old, you can barely touch him without him panicking. I'm sure some of the harsher methods suggested would work with your average two year old but this boy needs to trust first. Don't get me wrong, I've slapped him with the clip end of the lead rope if he has seriously threatened the back end, I just don't see how pushing him out of his comfort zone with 'schooling' is going to help. The only thing he needs to learn is how to be a horse, and a few basic manners.

Must dig out some piccies...

i maybe didnt explain very well, its not babying in the sense of letting them do whatever because you wub them, its that emotional connection/response that a stranger doesnt have. it can be so subconcious and can make a real difference.

he needs schooling to know how to interact with people and have manners. I wouldnt got beyond that but some work in a pen or on a lunge line will possibly speed things along to a safe point where he then CAN be treated like a normal youngster.

mine wasnt quite so bad but you couldnt pick feet up, rug him, or touch under tummy/back legs etc. it only took 2 weeks to have this totally sorted, so just a bit of this sort of *schooling* goes a long way .

 

[EQUIDAE]

please don't get defensive - people are only trying to help

you had said somewhere that schooling wasn't the answer so you either are schooling or you aren't schooling lol

anyway probably just a mis communication

I took 'schooling' to mean taking him into the arena and working him. In order to do this he needs to learn how to lead properly and not flinch as soon as anything touches him.

I'm getting defensive as people are saying I'm not doing anything with him - I am. I'm not a novice horse owner who has never handled youngsters before, I do have a bit of experience behind me. I'm not adverse to trainers - I use one already as I mentioned earlier. I just don't see the point in getting a trainer to do what I can do myself, and create a bond and respect in the process.

he needs schooling to know how to interact with people and have manners. I wouldnt got beyond that but some work in a pen or on a lunge line will possibly speed things along to a safe point where he then CAN be treated like a normal youngster.

mine wasnt quite so bad but you couldnt pick feet up, rug him, or touch under tummy/back legs etc. it only took 2 weeks to have this totally sorted, so just a bit of this sort of *schooling* goes a long way .

He is learning how to interact with people - I'm working with him every day. I just wouldn't call it schooling. He isn't at the stage where lunging would be appropriate - he's come to me completely unhandled and distrustful and the absolute basics need establishing first.

He's only been here for 3 weeks, and I've only actually been able to catch him for a few days. Initially when led him he would rear and charge you through the lead rope, spin and then try to double barrel you. Now he will come to be caught and stand calmly on the end of the leadrope.

Next step is leading - I'm insisting on good behaviour but I don't want to set him up to fail. I'm setting him up to allow praise for good behaviour as he is so distrustful that I don't want to have to discipline him when a series of small steps with get him to the same point with no aggro.

I am however getting to the point where I can swing a leadrope at him for bad behaviour without him trying to charge me, which is what he did before.

I can tie a net up and tell him to go away until I am done - before he would charge at the food and double barrel. I can collect buckets up without him trying to charge me. The list goes on - I don't know what they did to him in the past but there are a whole list of behaviours that have needed addressing for safe handling before I started doing any ground work with him.

 

[ester]

OP he is likely ok physically? Given the stabling since weaning I wonder if he suffers from ulcers etc?
He just reminded me a little of satan the pony https://www.facebook.com/PonyknownasSatan?fref=ts

Who despite being with this trainer for a year (having been running wild before hand) still wasn't really relaxing and going with it, I think she has had quite good results recently with him having some ulcer treatment, having essentially been chronically stressed and a patient bodyworker (I know your lad wouldn't be able to do that right now). It does sound like he is improving and might just take time though.

 

[elliefiz]

Well, this is certainly the NH view, and perhaps the traditional one too? It isn't the only valid or effective one. You could also obtain the behaviours you want and call this 'respect' (if you must) rather than trying to obtain 'respect' first and expecting good behaviour to flow from that. Getting good behaviour needn't necessarily involve 'tough love' (which sounds like a euphemism for...?), whereas who you suggest seems to imply that 'tough love' is mandatory to get respect, which itself is needed to obtain good behaviour. That's what it sounds like anyway - please correct me if I have misread you!

Yes personally I think respect is the first step in achieving a well behaved, trustworthy horse. The trustworthy part is more important to me than the good behaviour- no horse is 100% dependable but I want to know I can trust a horse to not loose it's mind if something happens. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough love part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary. It's not hugging fluffy bunnies and feeding sugar lumps, but I have never personally witnessed any cruelty or nastiness towards horses and I have spent time with a lot of horsemanship trainers over the past number of years. It wouldn't always sit well with the generation of (usually female) riders who think their horses "love" them and incorrectly humanise their horses and who have no comprehension of natural equine behaviour. So if you think I was advocating beating the crap out of a horse in the name of "tough love" or any type of cruelty then yes, you have misread me.

 

[EQUIDAE]

That is actually a good point Ester thank you. He's out 24/7 so gut should never be empty but a course of guastroguard could be a good starting point if he doesn't start to settle.

Thinking about it he licks an awful lot - fully brings his tongue out of the side of his mouth and leaves thick white saliva. He does this even at rest in the field occasionally but especially if he is stressed.

 

[EQUIDAE]

. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough leove part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary.

That's no different though than I am doing already.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

OK, we see a lot of people coming on here asking for advice and then saying "well my method works"

 

[siennamum]

My son broke in a horse a couple of years ago who you could not lay a hand on, he was very nervous about people, and hyper reactive - and 16.3.

Horse wasn't aggressive, but I have had aggressive boys before, and like my sons horse the answer is generally the same. Lots of handling and working with the horse. Reactive horses IMO need you to be a bit more obvious, to desensitise them. The aggression should decrease also the more he learns you are to be respected.

We woudl expect to work a couple of times a day if neccessary, and to make rapid progress, The problem is the longer he behaves as if people are at best to be tolerated, the more it will be his norm. I've found aggressive or opinionated horses don't mind fair correction. I wouldn't worry about yours making mistakes and being made to repeat till he gets it right. I have to say though that I owuld be having him cut immediattely to nip this in the bud.

 

[EQUIDAE]

OK, we see a lot of people coming on here asking for advice and then saying "well my method works"

I've not come on strictly for advice though (advice is considered too though but I'm not going to agree with all of it - no one would). I was having a down day and signed up to see if other people on here had had similar experiences and got through it. I was a little surprised to have NH shouted so much - I was expecting Horse and Hound to be a little less fluffy bunny. There are quite a lot of NH principles that I disagree with from an animal behaviour viewpoint. There are the occasional good tools available but over the years I have gone from curious to skeptical (experiences haven't been great of it).

I'm not for or against any particular method, I just have found a trainer who takes a bit of everything and trains horse and rider in a way which is firm but fair, without gimmicks. I don't feel the need to involve her in fieldwork as I am capable of the day to day handling and am making progress. She will of course be involved in the actual 'schooling' work, as she has been with my others.

I've heard a couple of success stories which has given me hope that I will get through to him - I was half expecting people to say PTS he's dangerous

I'm sure we will get there - I might use this post as a diary of sorts. It may need a snappier title though

 

[fburton]

Yes personally I think respect is the first step in achieving a well behaved, trustworthy horse. The trustworthy part is more important to me than the good behaviour- no horse is 100% dependable but I want to know I can trust a horse to not loose it's mind if something happens. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough love part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary. It's not hugging fluffy bunnies and feeding sugar lumps, but I have never personally witnessed any cruelty or nastiness towards horses and I have spent time with a lot of horsemanship trainers over the past number of years. It wouldn't always sit well with the generation of (usually female) riders who think their horses "love" them and incorrectly humanise their horses and who have no comprehension of natural equine behaviour. So if you think I was advocating beating the crap out of a horse in the name of "tough love" or any type of cruelty then yes, you have misread me.

Actually I reckon we're not so far apart in terms of practice. We just have a different interpretation of 'respect'. I didn't think you were advocating beating the crap of them, and share your dislike of humanising horses. However, I have seen some dreadful things done to horses in the name of teaching or instilling respect - usually couched in terms of 'establishing dominance' or some such - which is why talk of 'respect' tends to ring alarm bells with me.

EQUIDAE, it sounds to me like you are on the right track, recognizing that it's going to take time, patience and sensitivity. I would encourage getting someone experienced with fearful youngsters and entires to help you if you knew for certain they were competent. Something to consider at least, if you feel you're not getting anywhere or the horse's behaviour is consistently worsening (normal progress usually involves some backward steps).

 

[EQUIDAE]

We woudl expect to work a couple of times a day if neccessary, and to make rapid progress, The problem is the longer he behaves as if people are at best to be tolerated, the more it will be his norm. I've found aggressive or opinionated horses don't mind fair correction. I wouldn't worry about yours making mistakes and being made to repeat till he gets it right. I have to say though that I owuld be having him cut immediattely to nip this in the bud.

I am working with him morning and evening, plus every time I drive by the field I will call him over so he's probably getting some integration 4 times. The others think this is wonderful!

He does seem to be responding now to being disciplined. At first if you disciplined him he would attack, now he backs off.

Must go out and do something with him - I'm spending far too much time on the Internet!

I was 'warned' about this site that people can tear strips off you and no one lasts long - it doesn't seem as bad as I had initially worried thanks all for taking your time to respond.

 

[elliefiz]

That's no different though than I am doing already.

I'm unsure why you bothered posting looking for advice? You have an aggressive horse who exhibits dangerous behaviour. If you feel you have it under control why ask? If what you are doing is working so well, I'm Unsure why you bothered posting? Why not just get on with it like the rest of us do? And I find it highly insulting you are so dismissive of horsemanship, I am far from some sort of tree hugger, nor I believe, are others who have suggested Horsemanship as a tool. Anyone who has posted is offering advice based on experience, there is no need to be rude about it.

 

[elliefiz]

Actually I reckon we're not so far apart in terms of practice. We just have a different interpretation of 'respect'. I didn't think you were advocating beating the crap of them, and share your dislike of humanising horses. However, I have seen some dreadful things done to horses in the name of teaching or instilling respect - usually couched in terms of 'establishing dominance' or some such - which is why talk of 'respect' tends to ring alarm bells with me.
.

I actually did think I should say in my post that for me respect and dominance/ submission are different things. I definitely think we are on similar tracks, I would use the word respect for my horses in lieu of anything more appropriate. in the wild I would suppose the herd respect the herd leader without living in fear of him? Or is there a better word for it?

 

[EQUIDAE]

I'm unsure why you bothered posting looking for advice? You have an aggressive horse who exhibits dangerous behaviour. If you feel you have it under control why ask? If what you are doing is working so well, I'm Unsure why you bothered posting? Why not just get on with it like the rest of us do? And I find it highly insulting you are so dismissive of horsemanship, I am far from some sort of tree hugger, nor I believe, are others who have suggested Horsemanship as a tool. Anyone who has posted is offering advice based on experience, there is no need to be rude about it.

Not following your advice doesn't make me rude - not everyone in life has to agree with you.

Some people have been very helpful and I appreciate that very much. Me disagreeing with someone doesn't make me a bad person, it a difference opinion and no more.

I came on here looking for support from people who had been in the same situation with an aggressive horse - to be inspired by others experience so I didn't become disheartened. I was aware of the reputation of this forum for eating people alive - hence the please be gentle with me post.

Again to all of those who offered your support and experience thank you so much. I was having a dip in my confidence and it's great to see others have come out of the other side. To the others - cheers for making me feel like **** why do that? It doesn't achieve anything other than satifying your own ego.

I'm not a complete novice who has gone out and bought a youngster and is out of their depth, I have had youngsters and entires for several years now that have turned out to be polite and useful horses. Just never one who has disliked people so much - though I can fully see why

 

[Barnacle]

Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again. That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed.

elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)

edit: Posted while you were but wanted to add I'm sorry you felt attacked. I think everyone was only trying to help and you shouldn't take it personally. Horse people are passionate people I suppose!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I was a little surprised to have NH shouted so much - I was expecting Horse and Hound to be a little less fluffy bunny. There are quite a lot of NH principles that I disagree with from an animal behaviour viewpoint. There are the occasional good tools available but over the years I have gone from curious to skeptical (experiences haven't been great of it).

I know where you are coming from, there are other ways. I've not come across an aggressive youngster like this so I can't help. I did get a completely unhandled weanling off the moors though and have had to do all his training myself, on my own and didn't want to do it by flooding/force or NH lol! I am actually quite traditional but when you're on your own you have to think outside the box sometimes.

It's constantly amazing to me, what horses offer you when they are completely at liberty and have the option to get away (not suggesting this with your boy, not yet anyway!). So actually, horses doing things on their own terms can work and can actually be very powerful. I couldnt give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of that tbh.

 

[EQUIDAE]

U H

Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again. That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed.

elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)

I agree about the stress - he seems to be stressed about everything sadly. I have considered totally leaving him to be for a few weeks but I really need to nip the aggression in the bud first and at least get him leading calmly (so if he needs a vet we aren't stuck). I think once he's come round a bit more u will give him time off with nothing to stress him, but until then I'm going to have to persevere a couple of times a day.

I follow you with the leadership and dominance thing - I want him to want to behave, not feel he has no other option. I am by no means fluffy with him but for a stressy distrustful horse I think he does need to see that one person is going to be consistent with him.

I know where you are coming from, there are other ways. I've not come across an aggressive youngster like this so I can't help. I did get a completely unhandled weanling off the moors though and have had to do all his training myself, on my own and didn't want to do it by flooding/force or NH lol! I am actually quite traditional but when you're on your own you have to think outside the box sometimes.

It's constantly amazing to me, what horses offer you when they are completely at liberty and have the option to get away (not suggesting this with your boy, not yet anyway!). So actually, horses doing things on their own terms can work and can actually be very powerful. I couldnt give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of that tbh.

My previous youngsters have been straight off the hill and it is much easier to deal with. The ones who have had too much inappropriate handling when young seem to be the ones with issues.

The mare I just sold was a nightmare when she came. She had been in a home from foal where she had been a pet and they just let her do her own thing. They couldn't lead her so they just opened gates and stable doors and herded her. She was bolshy and rude and thought nothing of throwing herself on the floor if she didn't want to.go somewhere. With firm handling she became a well mannered horse - sadly her new home didn't keep up with the firm handling and she regressed and was passed on. I would have took her back but they sold her at a loss instead (bizarre) and I have lost touch

 

[EQUIDAE]

E

edit: Posted while you were but wanted to add I'm sorry you felt attacked. I think everyone was only trying to help and you shouldn't take it personally. Horse people are passionate people I suppose!

I know what you mean - we all love horses but let egos get in the way. I suppose I am equally as guilty of that... I guess I am sensitive at the minute regards him - no one likes being told 'get a trainer in you're doing it wrong', especially when they are making progress. Some of the advice I have disregarded I have done so only due to his mental state at the minute - when he is behaving more like a normal horse I may revisit some of the advice, I just don't feel it is appropriate yet. Some of the advice has been very relevant for his level of handling and I have taken it on board

I suppose it is like the shadow of a cylinder - from one side you get a circle, from the other a square. Neither view is incorrect, just different.

 

[EQUIDAE]

A quick snap of my yearling, Kenny. He's only 15 months but he knows the school is for concentrating. I do very little with him in the school, maybe once every couple of weeks and it is always loose so he is not put under lots of pressure. He knows the voice commands for upwards and downwards transitions and halt but it is very much taught as play for him yet, sometimes with my other 2yo in with him to show him the ropes. He's going to be a big lad - expected to make 17h-17h2 and standing at 15h currently. When he came he would try and use his size against you but now he is as polite as my others

This was not long after he arrived in April and he had been living in a cow shed over winter - he was caked in muck

 

[EQUIDAE]

And little cobby Oreo - another with a rough start. A very late foal and about 2 and a half here. Playing at jumping - teeny jumps and only 2 or 3 times.

He's now worn a saddle and bridle and has started long lining ready for being backed next spring.

 

[ester]

Were you here before OP? Oreo/the yard look familiar!

 

[fburton]

Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again.

L&C is definitely a stress indicator and appears exactly as you describe. I have long thought it could be due to saliva flowing again on the rebound from an adrenaline rush; it was something I suggested back in 1996 or 97, and a subsequent post about this on an equine behaviour list was misquoted as fact by Cavallo magazine. I wonder if anyone has done the experiments to prove it...

That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed.

Nice circumstantial evidence!

elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)

This is something that has fascinated and exercised me for many years now. The problem, I have found, is that in any discussions about dominance and (especially) leadership, assumptions arising from our cultural background as humans tend to influence the words we use. May I ask what you are researching?