Aggressive Youngster

A little update - we've made a little progress :) he's taken quite well to being led. Initially I was just leading him around in the field but then moved to leading to and from the stable. Today he calmly led past tractors and a horsebox parked on my drive to a different field. Hes seeming to take comfort and confidence from me in new situations - seems to be good for him.

He's still handy with his back end but it is becoming a bit less of an issue now.
 
There is nothing much new in training animals except the amount that has been forgotten and lost. I am a great devotee of old books and even translated one written in the 16th century into modern English and got it publish again, it had so much wisdom in it! (Only about falconry, though, but I did recover the costs within three months!).

The OP may find something of use on this site. It helped me.

http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook3.html
 
Dry Rot said:
There is nothing much new in training animals except the amount that has been forgotten and lost. I am a great devotee of old books and even translated one written in the 16th century into modern English and got it publish again, it had so much wisdom in it! (Only about falconry, though, but I did recover the costs within three months!).

The OP may find something of use on this site. It helped me.

http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook3.html
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Sorry but that is just awful! That is certainly NOT how I want to handle him - it is handling like that that has made him what he is today. I'm surprised people still follow this barbaric methodology :(
 
EQUIDAE said:
Sorry but that is just awful! That is certainly NOT how I want to handle him - it is handling like that that has made him what he is today. I'm surprised people still follow this barbaric methodology :(
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I have possibly posted the wrong link. I suggest you read a bit more rather than jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that I would ever suggest harsh methods. Regular uses of this forum know that I would never do that. The quickest way to learn is to start with an open mind.

Here is a cut-and-past from the introduction to the book.

INTRODUCTION
SINCE issuing our former editions of Mr. Rarey’s book on Horse Taming, some new facts have been published by him, which are embodied in these pages, and make the work still more complete. A careful perusal of the instructions here given, will show how any cool and determined person may break or tame a colt in a manner that will make him docile, stand at the word of command, and obey the voice with as much certainty as ordinarily trained horses will answer the reins. In contrast with the usual mode of training by harsh words, a sharp whip, and cruel worrying, Mr. Rarey demonstrates how easily, quietly and safely horses may be tamed by kindness. For training colts, breaking horses into harness, curing vicious horses, such as kickers and baulkers, this system is invaluable. Indeed, it will give to every courageous, calm-tempered horseman not only the power to conquer any horse, however refractory, but to make the animal affectionate in disposition and ready at all times to he mounted and put in harness, without trouble or waste of time. One great value of Mr. Rarey's system consists in the fact that it may be taught to, and successfully practiced by, persons of little strength - even by boys of fourteen - except where the horse is extremely vicious and powerful. It requires patience, and the habit of dealing with horses, as well as coolness; but the real work is rather a matter of skill than muscle. Not only have boys of eighty pounds weight become successful horse-tamers in England, but even English ladies have perfectly subdued and reduced to calmness fiery blood-horses. Therefore, in dealing with Mr. Rarey's plan we are not wasting our time about a trick for conquering incurably savage horses, but are elucidating the principles of a universally applicable system for taming and training horses for man's use, with a perfection of docility rarely found except in aged pet horses, and with a rapidity heretofore quite unknown.
 
EQUIDAE said:
First post so please be gentle with me...




And that is what has me worried - he isn't afraid, he just doesn't trust and if threatened will actually attack. If I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't have believed it.
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I wouldn't have believed it recently because it is only quite recently that I have had first hand experience with a nervous/aggressive 3 year old gelding. I am not proud of the fact that I ALLOWED him to get to three - from about a yearling - with knowing there was a behaviour problem. We have now had him stabled for about 2 months - working seriously on whether the problem can be fixed relatively safely and successfully. Ony 6 weeks ago he delivered the 2nd worst kick I have had in a lifetime with horses, for absolutely NO reaso I can identify. The only funny thing abut THAT was that 10 days later - when I was in hospital recovering from removal of a huge meningioma that had been screewing up my life for at LEAST 2 years by slwly shutting down functioing brain, one thing that was VERY noticeable was Registrars coming to check on me (there were 6 Registrars in total) and seeing my black and blue legs and clearly wondering how/why a meningioma could have SUCH a effect on legs. When I explained the bruising was the result of a kick by a horse they were astounded - and I'd bet they if they have any chidren in the future, those kids won't be allowed within 10 miles of a horse!

My current position with my youngster is that carefully selected members of staff are the ONLY ones to handle him at all, and they have their own set of rules - things like they are NOT to attempt to handle him unless another member of staff is in close proximity. I hope and pray this SHOULD ensure safe progress. I believe that if there is NO improvement in the next 3 months I should shoot him, because I sure as hell will not sell him.

He has 5 half-brothers and sisters (by a different stallion to him) who have all had perfect temperments and one younger full brother who is a yearling who hasn't shown a sign of being like him. The stallion he's by has a fabulously good temperament - and I'm in a good position to judging that. There is absolutely NO evidence that I had a member of staff - at the right time - who would even have given any horse a good whacking when it might probably deserve it - let alone the gratuitous and evil beating that he would have needed to give him such evil memories of one human that he would need to get even with anyone. And virtually NO chance that someone knew about the beating and hadn't told me.

It is probably the biggest mystery in a lifetime with horses and 12 years of serious breeding! I haven't read every response to your orginal post. The easiest and best things I can say to ou though are:

1. Make sure that ANYONE who doesn't know him well and have the experience to allow them to deal with any situation reasonably ensure that they don't go a mile from him!! You WILL feel incredibly guilty for a LONG time if he hurts someone, or worse.

2. Be incredibly careful yourself and don't attempt to do ANY work with him (or even go near him) without someone handy enough to see anything that happens and call an ambulance fast!

3. Set yourself a sensible time scale of how much time you are prepared to give him before you make the worst (but probably the most sensible) decision - which would be to shoot him (obviously you'd need to get your local hunt in to do THAT!)

I'll be keeping an eye out for your posts because the problem you and I have is pretty rare!!
 
EQUIDAE said:
I'm afraid we are a long way off rubbing withers and long lining - I can barely touch him yet he is that bad :( I had a bit of a breakthrough the other day and managed to rub his neck at the base rather than the top and patted him gently 'good boy' and he absolutely pooed his pants. He's not ready to meet other people yet - I'm keeping it one on one until he accepts contact more.

I wouldn't lunge a 2yo in trot, never mind sending them round and round in canter in a round pen - this one is out I'm afraid. I'm not a fan of the practice anyway as I believe it creates a bond through flooding and learned helplessness, the same way as sacking out does. I'd rather desensitise them gradually so they think it is on their terms and no big deal.

He's learned the word 'back' so I can control his position near me to a degree now - he's starting to respect my personal space a little.

He's also started allowing me to hold onto his headcollar for more than a few seconds now, so I'm going to start leading him around the paddock to get him used to following me rather than backing off.

I know I'll get there with him - I just had a bit of a wobble yesterday.

The idea of sending him into the vets to be done sooner rather than later is a good one, but until he stops trying to attack people I wouldn't out anyone else in danger, he'll be done but at home. Plus I have 3 to have done at the same time ;) the vets are happy to geld him at home.
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I like all of this. And PLEASE post that video!
 
Dry Rot said:
I have possibly posted the wrong link. I suggest you read a bit more rather than jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that I would ever suggest harsh methods. Regular uses of this forum know that I would never do that. The quickest way to learn is to start with an open mind.

Here is a cut-and-past from the introduction to the book.
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Your link is the the same age as has that introduction, which does indeed sound very enticing - until you read the rest of the page where it advocates tying a leg up until the horse stops fighting, and then tying the other leg up to bring them to their knees and then the ground, where you can sit on them or touch them all over without a fight.
Pretty sure that wouldn't be what you would advocate after reading many of your other posts - I do hope I'm not wrong.
 
dollyanna said:
Your link is the the same age as has that introduction, which does indeed sound very enticing - until you read the rest of the page where it advocates tying a leg up until the horse stops fighting, and then tying the other leg up to bring them to their knees and then the ground, where you can sit on them or touch them all over without a fight.
Pretty sure that wouldn't be what you would advocate after reading many of your other posts - I do hope I'm not wrong.
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Just popped in for lunch and a break from fencing. That link leads to some interesting stuff which I don't have time to find for the OP now. But I think it was Sullivan who was the original horse wisperer. Somewhere either he or Rarey explain how to quiet an aggressive horse by gently stroking it on the face and gradually moving to stroking to the rest of it's body. He thought nothing of taking 10+ hours to get the desired result. Sullivan came to England where they had advertised for the most vicious horse for him to demonstrate his techniques on. Excuse me if I've got the details wrong but I think they did find a notorious stallion that was kept permanently muzzled as he had already killed at least one stable boy. Sullivan applied his techniques and the stallion was rendered quiet.

Fear is often self rewarding. The animal panics and moves away so the increasing distance diminishes the fear -- self reward. Or it threatens to attack and the "attacker" is frightened and moves away with the same result. By immobilising the subect, the reward part is eliminated. (Lifting a front leg without tieing it is a well known technique for handling a kicking horse and something I was taught in vet college 50 years ago!). The fear can then be worked on by using 'approach and retreat'. It does work and it is something I have used with success on more than one species. No cruelty is involved unless the trainer is an idiot who doesn't understand the priciples involved -- and there are plenty of those around!

There is a heap of knowledge in those pages for those who are reasonably intelligent and can read with an unbiased mind and without emotion. If they can understand the underlying psychology, the information can be really really useful. There is no need to follow these old methods blindly but they can often be adapted. What worries me is when people start talking in terms of 'love', 'faith', and 'trust'. I deal in adapting behaviours to suit my purpose but it did take 30 years for the penny to drop! I could cite a few examples if my fencing was not more urgent but I think I'll leave the OP to get on with it.
 
Dry Rot said:
There is a heap of knowledge in those pages for those who are reasonably intelligent and can read with an unbiased mind and without emotion. If they can understand the underlying psychology, the information can be really really useful. There is no need to follow these old methods blindly but they can often be adapted.
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I think this is the key part of what Dry Rot is saying. You can pick up a lot of useful information by understanding the principle of why something works, even if you wouldn't use the described method. However, reading between the lines involves a bit more effort and use of critical faculties. Probably why certain trainers who promote 'horsemanship by numbers' are so popular ;)

OP - apologies for being blunt, but in your posts you don't come across as being as experienced as you seem to think you are, so I would be inclined to contact someone who has had experience of dealing with aggressive horses to help you in situ.
 
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I am surprised to be agreeing with Bonkers2's post, number 15, above which seems to be utterly sensible to me. The trick is to do that without being kicked into oblivion at the same time. So lift a front foot?

As for the OP not liking an animal to be restrained during training, I think she does mention using a head collar and, I suppose, hopes eventually to graduate to using a bridle and bit. Are these not methods of restraint?

But I wouldn't like Bonker2 to think I am backing down on my recommendation that buttercups should be sprayed when in flower (another thread that got a bit heated, for those who didn't see it!), that would be going tooo far!:D
 
Dry Rot said:
You just don't get it, do you?
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I do get it, it's just not a methodology I agree with.

We've had a lovely weekend and he is really progressing. He's started cantering up the field to meet me at the gate and is now leading quietly. Saturday and Sunday I brought him in and introduced him to being groomed. He appears fine with having his body groomed but doesn't seem quite ready for legs, but we will work on that. After the little grooms I took him for short walks down the lane and, although he was very alert, he wasn't acting like a kite.

We have had a week where he hasn't tried to kick once - I still don't trust him and am being very aware of what he is doing at all times, but we seem to be getting there :)
 
Woody is turning into such a lovely boy! He's now behaving like a 'normal' horse and is showing no aggression. He is being so lovely that l have even allowed my other half back in the field with him.

He is now first across the field

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And here we have first contact - he has finally allowed the man to touch him! The daft grey is our yearling - he was a total scaredy cat when we got him but a total love bunny now!

[video]http://vid77.photobucket.com/albums/j57/SlipInWoody/IMG_0119_zpsswz5dyob.mp4[/video]
 
fburton said:
L&C is definitely a stress indicator and appears exactly as you describe. I have long thought it could be due to saliva flowing again on the rebound from an adrenaline rush; it was something I suggested back in 1996 or 97, and a subsequent post about this on an equine behaviour list was misquoted as fact by Cavallo magazine. I wonder if anyone has done the experiments to prove it...


Nice circumstantial evidence!


This is something that has fascinated and exercised me for many years now. The problem, I have found, is that in any discussions about dominance and (especially) leadership, assumptions arising from our cultural background as humans tend to influence the words we use. May I ask what you are researching?
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The licking and chewing thing is seen in other animals too (like dogs, where it's pretty widely reported).

I research animal behaviour but specifically personality (NOT as in taking an online quiz to decide which of 5 outdated personality types you fit into!) and leadership in social animals, ranging from fish to humans. The term "leadership" is defined by initiation of movement and the fact of "followership". There is really no sense in which the definition could be affected by cultural context and would be clearly distinct from 'dominance'. But outside scientific circles there is certainly a tendency to equate dominance and leadership and perhaps you are right that this is because people think of our leaders (politicians or whatever else) as powerful, dominant etc etc.

Unfortunately people use "leadership" in a very loose way all the time and it ends up being misinterpreted - that goes for the term in human contexts too. I have no interest in that almost mystical sense of the word. It drives me a bit mad that the NH crowd have taken words like 'leadership' and 'personality' (Parelli with his "horsenality", "left brain/right brain" nonsense!) and used them haphazardly when there actually are serious fields in biology concerned with these concepts. To be fair, I don't think my field should use "personality" at all as it is far too confusing to communicate effectively to lay audiences - but a bit late for that now!


Also EQUIDAE, so good to see there's been progress! It sounds like you're on the right track now!
 
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l'm now going to slowly introduce strangers to him - yesterday my friend met him for the first time and he approached her cautiously. Within a few minutes he was leaning forwards as he wanted a scratch and then he took that magic step so they were both stood within each other's space. He seems to like my friend and when she turned her back he whuffled her hair.

l am so, so pleased with him. For a horse that would swing his bum at you and charge just a few weeks ago, he is doing admirably :}
 
He's coming along just lovely :) He's still skittish of sudden moves, and you cannot pat him, only stroke but he's turning into a lovely, lovely person.

I've finally got a bum shot of his markings

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I've started working with him in the arena now - just loose to get him moving and responding to my voice. He's now understanding the cues to move up and down a pace. One thing I am glad of is that he doesn't have any fear of whips so he responds nicely to a lunge whip.

I had the channel set out from loose jumping my Sec D and the result was this. I didn't ask him to go over the jump, just sent him off round the arena and then took off the pressure. He could have stopped or backed off in the channel but instead popped the jump nicely and calmly.
 
I was a bit worried that with him being trotter x, that he wouldn't be able to canter - no probs!

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EQUIDAE said:
Woody is turning into such a lovely boy! He's now behaving like a 'normal' horse and is showing no aggression. He is being so lovely that l have even allowed my other half back in the field with him.

He is now first across the field

IMG_0008_zpsr8oqm4ue.jpg


And here we have first contact - he has finally allowed the man to touch him! The daft grey is our yearling - he was a total scaredy cat when we got him but a total love bunny now!

[video]http://vid77.photobucket.com/albums/j57/SlipInWoody/IMG_0119_zpsswz5dyob.mp4[/video]
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Congratulations with the progress. No help to offer as Ted was certainly not aggressive, even at his most frightened he would not hurt me with anger or aggression.

Why do you keep these coloured horses entire ?
 
I only popped him over 3 times and that will be it for a good while now.

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I'm really starting to like this little horse :)

Currently doubling as a lawnmower

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Why would you want to chase a horse that cannot be handled all over, tied up and does not have the basic ground work in, around an arena and over jumps ?

I am finding this thread most odd.
 
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