Aggressive Youngster

It looks to me as if there is something very odd about that horse's left eye. Or is it just me?

Here is another licking horse:

[video=youtube_share;VqazOsLimxw]https://youtu.be/VqazOsLimxw[/video]
 
Dry Rot said:
It looks to me as if there is something very odd about that horse's left eye. Or is it just me?
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He's just got white around the eye instead of brown like most have. Makes him look a wild eye, especially when he rolls it backwards and pins his ears back...
 
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I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I've seen 2 horses over the years on my yard that have done this with there tongue, both only did it whilst stabled and neither were arrgressive. It was caused by stress (like a stable vice) anything that caused them stress, they'd start.
 
Flyermc said:
I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I've seen 2 horses over the years on my yard that have done this with there tongue, both only did it whilst stabled and neither were arrgressive. It was caused by stress (like a stable vice) anything that caused them stress, they'd start.
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He does do it with stress - the NH guy told me I was wrong and he was showing relaxation. I disagreed... He does it in the field too, and also does it to other horses.
 
The horses I knew would did it mainly in there stable, but also ridden (if asked to do something in the school that's different) I've never seen them do it in the field, but that's not to say that didn't!

It was repetative they'd do it over and over again
 
EQUIDAE said:
He's just got white around the eye instead of brown like most have. Makes him look a wild eye, especially when he rolls it backwards and pins his ears back...
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If you hadn't corrected me, I'd have guessed it was an enlarged nictitating membrane in the left eye, possibly causing a vision defect. But you know your horse and you've had him vetted. The horse in my video will have his vision partially obscured by the vertical bars of the stable door. A horse with a vision defect might well become aggressive, but then he hasn't one so we can rule that out.

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Dry Rot said:
If you hadn't corrected me, I'd have guessed it was an enlarged nictitating membrane in the left eye, possibly causing a vision defect. But you know your horse and you've had him vetted.
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I can definitely see where you are coming from. It's definitely not a membrane though. I'll see if I can get a better picture :) good thinking though.
 
The NH trainer sounds like a numpty; glad you are trusting your interpretations over his. Even before I got to the part where you were getting him to target his headcollar, I was thinking that he sounds like an excellent candidate for clicker training.

People that don't understand its principles tend to think of it as some sort of fluffy-bunny approach, but it's quite the opposite: it requires precision, consistency, and enormous self-discipline. But it can work really well with worried animals, because there is no pressure, and it becomes the animal's decision to try things. Alexandra Kurland once said to us at a clinic that you are teaching the animal how to learn. The main difference between it and positive reinforcement in general is the presence of the marker signal before the reward (which doesn't need to be food!). This allows the great precision.
 
As much as I like to use positive reinforcement myself and admire skilled clicker practitioners, my gut feeling is that it may be a little advanced to embark on a programme of CT with this pony at this time. It could work wonderfully, but there is also a risk of raising the emotional stakes and inadvertently creating unwanted behaviours and 'attitudes'. Spookypony, you are absolutely right that it allows great precision, but sometimes it requires great precision too. It's not impossible to go wrong with CT, particularly when used with 'problem' horses.

Equidae, if you have done this before and feel you have a strong grasp of how it works and what's involved, by all means go ahead - especially using non-food rewards. If not, it may be better to defer this plan until you gain experience with less problematic individuals. You wouldn't use a pressure halter without instruction, would you? But people do, don't they? And a lot of the time it's fine - but it's a potent tool that can be misused. One may not be able to inflict needless pain with CT, but CT can cause other problems sometimes.

As I say, this is just my opinion and what my instinct tells me. I could be wrong - I don't know your pony and your circumstances! And it's not for me to dictate what people should or should not do.
 
I'm not clicker training, I'm just target training him to touch the headcollar to gain a treat, so he will put his head through the noseband rather than me having to follow him around until he gives up. I've done clicker training with dogs in the past so I'm good with the whole timing thing. I don't think a clicker would work with him anyway as he's so skittish with loud noises - I've known dogs do react badly to the noise in the past, so I should imagine a nervous horse could be worse... I've target trained youngsters before so it's not all new.

Here's my number one boy as a foal being introduced to the idea of being haltered loose in the field. The aim has always been to hold it open and them put their own nose in it.

IMG_5237.JPG
 
EQUIDAE said:
He does do it with stress - the NH guy told me I was wrong and he was showing relaxation. I disagreed... He does it in the field too, and also does it to other horses.
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I answered on your other thread about the L&C and my thoughts on NH practitioners I'll not put down.

fwiw, my old horse used to do the same sort of lip licking seen in both your video and DRs. He would start when I began making up feeds and only then-and stop once he'd eaten. Teeth and ad-lib forage all present and correct. He was a very laid back chap generally so I didn't worry about it.

Someone mentioned Ben Hart and I have to recommend his stuff. I am wary of clicker training myself because its takes more discipline than I have-not because I don't think it works. I recently bought my first horse box and worked out a shaping plan based on some of his others (I bought the restarting pack) and both my youngsters are loading well and I've used a couple of the others too. Neither are 'problem' horses though I've struggled to build a relationship with one of them. It's not a million miles away from more traditional horsemanship but it does provide a plan to work to-which personally helps me as I can become easily distracted!
 
Nature is rather economical with behaviour and sometimes almost identical behaviours arise for different things. (Crying and laughing in humans is sometimes quite similar). But Nature seldom wastes them. The licking must be for a reason, even if we don't know what that reason is. Work that out and you are on your way to a solution. Why do other aninimals lick in a similar manner? I suggested it might be something to do with eye sight because snakes and lizards 'taste' their way around their environment. We all know about flehmen. Could it be something similar? Aggression can be prompted by feelings of insecure, e.g. attacking being a form of defence, and poor eye sight would certainly make an animal feel insecure.
 
Equidae, what you say about target training and your mention of doing CT with dogs eases my qualms substantially. Carry on with what you're doing - I'm sure it's fine. :)

Re the licking: the behaviour I was referring to, which I thought you were talking about in relation to the NH trainer, is what is commonly known as "licking and chewing". This is quite different in appearance from what's in the video. That's not to say that the tongue lolling (as I would call it) doesn't have a stress or anxiety component, but it's not the classic response one sees so often when a horse has been stressed or gets a fright. I'm still inclined to think it is displacement activity - but, as Dry Rot says, some behaviours that look the same can have quite different causes.
 
Thanks for all the support - he's had a weekend off much handling (other than a quick feed) as I've been working 13 hour shifts. So back to 'work' on Monday with him and doing a bit more general handling with him. I do like his little face and he is always the first of the lot of them to come running when I call them in :)
 
brighteyes said:
That's a stereotypie developing, due to an anxiety or stress. Clue is the sideways licking. Does he work up a froth?
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He does sometimes - his mannerisms when he is doing it make it so clear it is stress/anxiety, I couldn't believe anyone would think it was relaxed behaviour.
 
EQUIDAE said:
He does sometimes - his mannerisms when he is doing it make it so clear it is stress/anxiety, I couldn't believe anyone would think it was relaxed behaviour.
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Which begs the question, why are the horses is both videos stressed by looking over the stable door? It doesn't make sense and, as Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true!:)

I agree, low key chewing and licking is relaxation after a period of mild stress, e.g. coming down from a stressy interlude during lunging to more regular work.

I also agree that this is something different, like my GSD chasing his tail (OCD). He chases his tail when he thinks he should be getting out of the kennel so, yes, a displacement. Frustrated hunting behaviour channelled into chasing his own tail. I still think the horses might be 'tasting the air', possibly triggered by the presence of the owner. We need someone who has spent time watching herds of horses in the wild.
 
Dry Rot said:
Which begs the question, why are the horses is both videos stressed by looking over the stable door? It doesn't make sense and, as Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true!:)
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He's stressed looking over the stable door as he was gelded the day before so pretty fed up...
 
It's now been long enough post gelding that I have now introduced him and his buddy to my mare. They have been out with my entire without bother, I'm going to let this little herd establish and then reintroduce him (he is calm and non-aggressive and mare is marbled).

The introduction went better than expected - possibly because they were distracted with carrots...Woody actually seemed more interested in me than his new friend:)

[video]https://www.facebook.com/leanne.kaut/videos/10153657233585781/[/video]
 
Over the past month he has been out with my mare and other gelding - today he was introduced to my stallion. Theyve been able to touch over the fence for months but today they went in together :) a little squealing and then they settled down to eat as a herd of 5 :)

Of the 5 of them he is still the first to come and say hello! He really is turning into such a lovely lad :)

http://www.4shared.com/video/MxKcoCnQba/MOV_0237_000.html
 
I tried to get a pretty shot but ended with loads where he looks big head, teeny body...

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Also since gelding he seems to have pretty much stopped the licking.

I really like this little horse :)
 
A bit of an update on him - he was gelded, chipped and passported on 11/11 so we have called him Lest We Forget. He's had a new start and a new name as Woody was from when he was bad, so to take away any negative connotations with his name he is now called Lester.

He's been wintered off and has really blossomed in his little herd. Always the first across the field to say hello and is the friendliest of the bunch now - though he is still terribly head shy.

Last weekend he wore a bit for the first time - just a straight bar happy mouth, covered in honey and tied to his headcollar with baling twine for a bit. He was totally happy with this so today I tried it with a bridle too - he was a little gem :)

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Please excuse the state of him he's been wintered out and looks like no one owns him ;)
 
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