All not quite as hoped...

MrsMozart said:
That's where I went very wrong.

I thought that because she was on her back and having her tummy rubbed that she was happy and the grumble was a dog purr. I was wrong.

When I moved her I should have put her on the floor or in her crate rather than to the side of me on the sofa.

So many lessons learned.
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Should've, would've, could've, the world is full of them. Everyone does the best we can then and there in a situation, if it works, we carry on, if it doesn't work, we try something else, seek advice.

I hope you pick the grapes of the advices given, and try the things you think might work for you, and your dogs.
 
MrsMozart said:
No need lass! If I'd had this one from new pup or she'd had a different life to date then it would probably be a different story.

You'll train and have consistent boundaries and all will be grand.
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This!! Dogs are and can always be what we make them I reckon! :) What I would like to know from those who know and understand more than me is why a dog about to attack might remain on it's back - this always confused the hell out of me when I first had Bess; I assumed it was fear driven aggression but being a rehomed dog I didn't know where that might have come from. Please someone explain this more if possible :)
 
palo1 said:
This!! Dogs are and can always be what we make them I reckon! :) What I would like to know from those who know and understand more than me is why a dog about to attack might remain on it's back - this always confused the hell out of me when I first had Bess; I assumed it was fear driven aggression but being a rehomed dog I didn't know where that might have come from. Please someone explain this more if possible :)
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I'm no expert, but my amateur thought is that according to what I've read, newer studies have made the conclusion that rolling over on their back is actually not a submissive signal, without a strategic defence position, from where a dog might launch an attack, if they feel that an attack is necessary.

I also think that sometimes they simply roll over on their back because it is nice to get a belly rub, but once on their back, other things might happen, and then they react on that from the position that they're in.
 
Been trying to reply since yesterday...

Fingers crossed this works!

Lots of useful information, thank you folks.

We've stopped her from going on the sofa and the bed. She has to do all the things the others have to do, i.e. behave herself, which she had to do before but we've changed how we direct her. Not namby pamby but whatever it is seems to be working.

Lots of outside time. She's happy either mooching with the others or pottering about having sniffs on her own.

Inside she takes herself to her was-cats-bed in her crate. She can lie comfy and watch me. She'd rather be on the sofa but that's not happening any time soon.

There's the very occasional grumble at one of the others. It's ignored if she's in her crate and one is getting too close, but if it's anywhere else she gets told to shut up and that seems to be working well.

So, we continue to be a work in progress, but a happier one, so thank you all for being my very informative and supportive sounding board.
 
I think this is why people either love or hate terriers. As a lover I think this is fairly normal behavour for a small fiesty dog. Note normal not acceptable!
Mine sometimes grumble (growl) at each other or other dogs. My rescue boy grumbles if we move him when he's comfy but in the wrong place. He just gets a NO and is moved. It never goes further. Any agression is addressed with being removed from company immediately. No punishment just removal. I have well behaved safe terriers but they would rule the roost if they could. They are trustworthy with chickens cats and children and other dogs on this regime but I think they need treating like dogs not "little dogs" if you see what I mean. No special measures if they are naughty.
PS they sleep on the bed :-o
 
Having always been a confirmed spaniel person I took on a terrierist almost 7 years ago, he was a pup bred by my best friend and his mother is adorable. I remember the best piece of advice I gave my OH (who had never owned a dog before he met me and was used to my lovely spangles).."Treat him as if hes bigger than all the others and do not give him an inch"...that one sentence has served us both well. He is a happy and well mannered little chap, he will occasionally overstep the mark but gets put firmly back in his hypothetical box and comes back with a smile and a waggy tail. He definitely needs boundaries though, without them he would be a nightmare
 
I reckon it’s a confidence thing, she’s being reactive for a reason. You are doing everything right. The most annoying answer (but I’ve always found it to be true) is TIME! Give it time. I know it will be frustrating but these things almost always work themselves out. Dogs have a funny way of working things out together. It might take a lot longer than your ideal timescales, but it will happen. Positive reinforcement all the way I reckon - reward her for just laying quietly and before she starts growling. Frustrating I know!! Good luck x
 
Squee said:
It has just occurred to me - terriers are the Welsh Section D’s of the dog world ?
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Oh flipping heck!! Last year I acquired one of each...Am I utterly insane? As well as oblivous? I love both of mine very, very dearly though and as a reflection on the usual madness here they both fit in nicely and are 'no trouble at all'!! :p:p:p
 
MyBoyChe said:
Having always been a confirmed spaniel person I took on a terrierist almost 7 years ago, he was a pup bred by my best friend and his mother is adorable. I remember the best piece of advice I gave my OH (who had never owned a dog before he met me and was used to my lovely spangles).."Treat him as if hes bigger than all the others and do not give him an inch"...that one sentence has served us both well. He is a happy and well mannered little chap, he will occasionally overstep the mark but gets put firmly back in his hypothetical box and comes back with a smile and a waggy tail. He definitely needs boundaries though, without them he would be a nightmare
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Such brilliant advice for anyone with a small but feisty dog. :)
 
Gave up trying to reply on my phone and booted up the laptop.

Thank you for more help :)

I think because I've been aware of what issues could happen with the big powerful dogs, plus I just like to have well behaved dogs, I've put a lot of time and effort into making them pretty good to have around. The wee dog, when I've met her, has just been a sweet little thing and I've made the rookie error of thinking that's how she'd be here... I'd taken into account her history, the big dogs milling about, all the changes, but what I hadn't taken into account is in reality she's a big dog in a small body and I must treat her accordingly!

So, yes it will take time and it'll have it's hard moments, like now when I'd really like to invite her up on the sofa for a cuddle, but with time and patience and firm consistent boundaries we'll get there :)

Interestingly she's now looking more to D. She'll soon learn that D don't take no sh!t :D

I spoke with D2, the one who knows her best, and she knows more of the history. She's in agreement about circumstances not being the best for training when she was younger and boundaries not being set. When wee dog stayed with D2 for a couple of months there was some work on it (D2 don't take no sh!t either).

I just told her she was a good girl and she came up for a head rub. All good. She tried five times to get on the sofa with me. Five times told to get off. Head rub resumed when she got off. You can see the cogs whirring. She went and jumped on D's chair in what had become her spot. He told her 'Off' and off she got. She's gone back to her crate and curled up. Hopefully it's starting to sink in.

Question: when she's in her crate and I call her out she usually won't come now, just rolls on her back, soft expression but ears slightly up and back a smidge. I can drop a slip lead on and she'll happily come out with a wagging tail. She's very food orientated so is it a thing with terrierists to use small treats to encourage good behavouirs, such as coming out of her crate when called? I feel daft asking the question, but even the rescue Shih Tzus didn't have this particular issue. One of them could get nasty but on being told it wasn't acceptable soon reeled it in. The Shih Tzus were 'merely' neglected rather than anything else so limited human interaction, whereas the wee dog had a lot of human interaction and had life, on the whole, just as she liked it.

On the plus side, she comes to call when we're out and about! Goes off for a sniff but at the call comes bounding, which is incredibly sweet and very funny. Admittedly it's probably because she gets a treat, but I'll take it :D
 
If she needs encouragement, give her a treat as a reward for doing 'it' whatever it is. We use treats all the time, although tbh, we probably didn't as much when we had the JRT - we had 7 dogs at that time.
The JRT's were a nightmare in just about every way you can imagine but their recall on a walk was perfect. If they escaped they were deaf but that was a different story! They truly were more bother than the rest of the pack put together - and they were a mix of Labs, Rott, Border Collie ( last 2 rehomed). We knew the terriers' history and antecedents, they were bred on a friend's farm and they made us laugh when we weren't tearing out our hair but *never again*:eek:. You are doing fine with her!
 
palo1 said:
Oh flipping heck!! Last year I acquired one of each...Am I utterly insane? As well as oblivous? I love both of mine very, very dearly though and as a reflection on the usual madness here they both fit in nicely and are 'no trouble at all'!! :p:p:p
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I adored my section D and should never have sold him.... my advice to the woman who bought him was ‘be firm, set clear parameters - if you give him an inch he will take a mile”

Stupid bloody woman didn’t listen and sold him on without telling me a few months later because she let him walk all over her. Fortunately he went to a lovely hunting family with two teenage boys!
 
I have loved following this thread and despite the set backs I am still longing to get my next JRT. Mrs M I think she will be just perfect and a proper little character when the small settling in hiccups have been sorted

Mr. Jingle and I have always had the mindset that most JRTs and a lot of that type are in fact, very bad tempered, opinionated badly trained massive rottweilers and from day one to treat them as such lol! It works a treat and does help keep you one step ahead of the little devils!
 
Rolling on her back is an appeasement behaviour so yes - if you want to avoid escalating to a point where she needs to growl/bite because appeasment isnt working - use a lure or reward. This is not failing or being soft. Ideally teach a command word and practice sending her into and calling her out of the crate so she associates a certain word with coming out willingly.
 
Squee said:
It has just occurred to me - terriers are the Welsh Section D’s of the dog world ?
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Yep, they really are. You know that thing with welshies where you take great care training them and then they pretend they've never had a day's training in their life the moment they are in someone else's care? Yep terriers. Never make the mistake of thinking you've genuinely trained a terrier - they install a switch with everything you train them that can be flicked off at will in a given situation/in the company of some poor soul that is open to rank manipulation.

I suppose they were bred to be adaptable independent thinkers after all, rather than a gun or pastoral breed where a dog that reliably tows the party line is fairly necessary.
 
SusieT said:
Rolling on her back is an appeasement behaviour so yes - if you want to avoid escalating to a point where she needs to growl/bite because appeasment isnt working - use a lure or reward. This is not failing or being soft. Ideally teach a command word and practice sending her into and calling her out of the crate so she associates a certain word with coming out willingly.
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Thank you. Will work on it. Have been making coming out fun and strokes, which she seems keen on, but it's the initial bit of stepping out. I think she's finding her feet and just realising that I'm the boss and not necessarily liking the fact as she's been used to ruling the roost, at times any way, other times not so much.
 
DabDab said:
Yep, they really are. You know that thing with welshies where you take great care training them and then they pretend they've never had a day's training in their life the moment they are in someone else's care? Yep terriers. Never make the mistake of thinking you've genuinely trained a terrier - they install a switch with everything you train them that can be flicked off at will in a given situation/in the company of some poor soul that is open to rank manipulation.

I suppose they were bred to be adaptable independent thinkers after all, rather than a gun or pastoral breed where a dog that reliably tows the party line is fairly necessary.
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Good point! I'm used to the more 'protective' or herding breeds, so they have, on the whole, been more biddable. The Rotties tend to think things over, one more than the other, and the GSD sticks to her person like glue. Interestingly one of the Rotties will bob off and go do his thing, but if I'm hurt or sad he's the one that's in there first, whilst the other, who tends to stay closer to me the rest of the time, gives me a look then sits himself on guard. It's quite fascinating watching their ways.
 
DabDab said:
Yep, they really are. You know that thing with welshies where you take great care training them and then they pretend they've never had a day's training in their life the moment they are in someone else's care? Yep terriers. Never make the mistake of thinking you've genuinely trained a terrier - they install a switch with everything you train them that can be flicked off at will in a given situation/in the company of some poor soul that is open to rank manipulation.

I suppose they were bred to be adaptable independent thinkers after all, rather than a gun or pastoral breed where a dog that reliably tows the party line is fairly necessary.
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I love this description of both Welshies and terriers!! I have taken a great deal of care to get both of mine polite and biddable so of course they are. For me!! I am no expert in any way but I would not trust either of them to behave or demonstrate an ounce of training if left with the wrong person...!
 
palo1 said:
This!! Dogs are and can always be what we make them I reckon! :) What I would like to know from those who know and understand more than me is why a dog about to attack might remain on it's back - this always confused the hell out of me when I first had Bess; I assumed it was fear driven aggression but being a rehomed dog I didn't know where that might have come from. Please someone explain this more if possible :)
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These two articles might be interesting for you to read:
(Short and to the point) http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/new...s-rolling-over-may-not-be-submissive-behavior

(A little more detailed, mentions a study which showed that most rollovers where defensive, and only 9 out of 248 observed rollovers where submissive)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...t-always-mean-dog-is-afraid-or-submissive?amp

The later article also mentions a dog lying with their belly up, and launching straight into snapping with the mouth.

It might be easier to continue to view rolling over as a simple submissive/appeasement signal, but we should remember that dog's body language signals can have more than one meaning, just as our language have words with more than one meaning, like for example Sow, which could mean that you either is talking about planting seeds, or a female pig.
And rolling over might as well actually be a sneaky tactic signal from your dog's point of view.

To make it more complicated, sometimes they simply want a bit of belly rubbing.
 
Mrs M, please be assured that your little dog is not trying to take over the world, become top dog or any of that nonsense.

I pretty much gave up reading the thread when I got to the rolled up newspaper, so somebody may have already pointed out that she is an insecure dog who is resource guarding.

Please ignore any advice which suggests confrontation, shouting or bullying.

Other than wanting a belly rub, rolling on the back can be an appeasement behaviour, a defensive position or a sign the dog wishes to withdraw from interaction, you would need to look at the rest of her body language.

Have a look on the internet for advice from somebody like Jean Donaldson, Grisha Stewart, Patricia McConnell or Ian Dunbar on how you can help her without making the problem a whole lot worse.

ETA. Sorry FL, I've duplicated some of your information which didn't come up till I finished and posted my reply.:)
 
skinnydipper said:
Mrs M, please be assured that your little dog is not trying to take over the world, become top dog or any of that nonsense.

I pretty much gave up reading the thread when I got to the rolled up newspaper, so somebody may have already pointed out that she is an insecure dog who is resource guarding.

Please ignore any advice which suggests confrontation, shouting or bullying.

Other than wanting a belly rub, rolling on the back can be an appeasement behaviour, a defensive position or a sign the dog wishes to withdraw from interaction, you would need to look at the rest of her body language.

Have a look on the internet for advice from somebody like Jean Donaldson, Grisha Stewart, Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar on how you can help her without making the problem a whole lot worse.

ETA. Sorry FL, I've duplicated some of your information which didn't come up till I finished and posted my reply.:)
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No need to apologise, but read post #64 from MrsMozart, I think you will feel reassured that she's managed to sieve out the useful information.
 
Quick update: first full day of the new rules, i.e. no sofa and no my bed.

She's been grand. The occasional rude-almost-ignore when called if within twenty or so feet, and needing a couple of reminders to move when told, but other than that she's been grand.

You could see that she was a bit stressed earlier when there were too many big dogs' legs around her - she had a grump with her eyes fixed firmly on her crate and took herself off into it. No telling off for the grump as she was just telling the big lumps to get out of her way and was sorted herself out to get to her spot.

She's been fine about sharing strokes, often using a big dog to prop herself up to reach a hand for a head rub, and she's been treated exactly the same when it comes to single and joint attention.

They've all been outside for hours today and all happily flaked out in their spots.

We've still got a ways to go but we're getting there :)

ETA: The GSD has been a bit more attention seeking, so some work done there to let her know she's still the lass :)
ETA2: She's allowed on the long footstool thing. I thought it best that she can get to at least shoulder height of the others! Today she's only tried once to go from there to the sofa and immediately off as soon as she was told. The big dogs are still allowed on the far end of the sofa - they never go on my spot (nice to have at least one vaguely dog hair free zone!)
 
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Only just seen this thread Mrs M, and very glad you seem to be getting the situation in hand.
Terriers really are different from other breeds, we have a Westie and she's definitely opinionated! You can't explain it to people who've never owned a terrier, they really are in their own class. I had a row with one of my neighbours once, she had Irish setters and had just done a dog training course, kept telling me to leave my dog with her for a week and she'd be trained. She is actually trained, she just chose to ignore us because that's what terriers do.
 
MrsMozart said:
ETA2: She's allowed on the long footstool thing. I thought it best that she can get to at least shoulder height of the others! Today she's only tried once to go from there to the sofa and immediately off as soon as she was told. The big dogs are still allowed on the far end of the sofa - they never go on my spot (nice to have at least one vaguely dog hair free zone!)
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Sorry to be Debbie Downer lol...for me, she wouldn't be elevated/off the ground, anywhere except the car or the vet's table!
These things do matter, believe it or not, when you have a dog like that.
It can make them feel more confident/above themselves, or have a destabilising effect.
 
JennBags said:
Only just seen this thread Mrs M, and very glad you seem to be getting the situation in hand.
Terriers really are different from other breeds, we have a Westie and she's definitely opinionated! You can't explain it to people who've never owned a terrier, they really are in their own class. I had a row with one of my neighbours once, she had Irish setters and had just done a dog training course, kept telling me to leave my dog with her for a week and she'd be trained. She is actually trained, she just chose to ignore us because that's what terriers do.
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A week, lol. Must have been some course.
 
JennBags said:
Only just seen this thread Mrs M, and very glad you seem to be getting the situation in hand.
Terriers really are different from other breeds, we have a Westie and she's definitely opinionated! You can't explain it to people who've never owned a terrier, they really are in their own class. I had a row with one of my neighbours once, she had Irish setters and had just done a dog training course, kept telling me to leave my dog with her for a week and she'd be trained. She is actually trained, she just chose to ignore us because that's what terriers do.
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If she could train Irish setters though she must have had some skills. :D:p
 
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