Always ride in shoulder fore?

[Mule]

I've read a couple of dressage articles recently where the author said they always ride in shoulder fore. Do they mean constantly? Do any dressage people on the forum do this? Is it something to do with straightening the horse?

 

[ihatework]

It’s got everything to do with straightening the horse!

I’m not convinced by ‘all the time’ but I reckon the good people do it subconsciously most of the time.

 

[tallyho!]

Hmmm... it has a lot of benefits but not all the time... surely you want to ride a straight line once or twice?

What about everything else? There are lots of useful exercises not just for straightening purposes but also for engaging the core and lifting the fore. Engaging other bits of the horse?

You wouldn’t go to the gym and only do arm-day? What about leg day and abs day n back day n butt day?

 

[milliepops]

It’s got everything to do with straightening the horse!

I’m not convinced by ‘all the time’ but I reckon the good people do it subconsciously most of the time.

this
while not actually asking for shoulder fore I definitely have the thought of it in my mind on every straight line, and on a green horse esp around big circles, to stop the horse leaning on the track or falling through the shoulder around turns. I think the s-f positioning needs to be instantly available all the time really.

 

[milliepops]

2 other things
first that shoulder fore can be as slight as you choose or as is appropriate, unlike shoulder -in which has a defined angle

second if you let the horse take itself down the long side without any s-f then you can end up appearing or being quarters-in, as the horse is wider behind than in front. Watch a dressage test from the end of the long side and you can clearly see the riders that think about straightness on straight lines, and those that don't (esp in medium canter! )

thought of a third. it also helps to connect the inside leg to outside hand, so it's esp useful to do at a tiny angle, or "thinking towards" shoulder fore, generally at any time you lose that.

 

[Roxylola]

On the basis that the front end is narrower than the back end if you are riding the front end on the track then you are riding quarters in in reality. To be truly straight with the hind following the shoulders really you need either to be off the track or to have the shoulders slightly off the track to allow room for the hinds to be on and straight - ie shoulder fore.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I definitely use "think shoulder fore" to get straightness.

 

[Mule]

I definitely use "think shoulder fore" to get straightness.

When you say think shoulder fore do you mean to ask for a slight shoulder fore?

 

[milliepops]

speaking personally if I was thinking shoulder fore I'd be riding the aids more or less, without necessarily asking the shoulders to come off the track noticeably. But expecting the reaction from the horse that I could move them if I wanted to. but asking the inside hind to engage and to fully connect the outside of the horse into my hand +/-a fraction of the straightening effect of moving the shoulders.
from that starting point you can easily move to s-f or s-in if you wanted, or if you found that you needed to make your point to the horse heard better

 

[Mule]

speaking personally if I was thinking shoulder fore I'd be riding the aids more or less, without necessarily asking the shoulders to come off the track noticeably. But expecting the reaction from the horse that I could move them if I wanted to. but asking the inside hind to engage and to fully connect the outside of the horse into my hand +/-a fraction of the straightening effect of moving the shoulders.
from that starting point you can easily move to s-f or s-in if you wanted, or if you found that you needed to make your point to the horse heard better

Right, I think I've got it. Will have a go tomorrow

 

[PapaverFollis]

speaking personally if I was thinking shoulder fore I'd be riding the aids more or less, without necessarily asking the shoulders to come off the track noticeably. But expecting the reaction from the horse that I could move them if I wanted to. but asking the inside hind to engage and to fully connect the outside of the horse into my hand +/-a fraction of the straightening effect of moving the shoulders.
from that starting point you can easily move to s-f or s-in if you wanted, or if you found that you needed to make your point to the horse heard better

What she said.

The Beast has a recurrent falling in through shoulder issue. Riding the shoulder slightly in.... or being in readiness to ride the shoulder slightly in seems to help stop the shoulder just falling in. When I'm thinking shoulder fore there is a slight but significant enough ask that keeps the shoulder unweighted which means she doesn't dive inwards through it. What you're really getting is an activated inside hind and a bit of bend or a readiness to bend...

God I'm useless with the words around these things. 😂

What Milliepops said.

 

[Mule]

What she said.

The Beast has a recurrent falling in through shoulder issue. Riding the shoulder slightly in.... or being in readiness to ride the shoulder slightly in seems to help stop the shoulder just falling in. When I'm thinking shoulder fore there is a slight but significant enough ask that keeps the shoulder unweighted which means she doesn't dive inwards through it. What you're really getting is an activated inside hind and a bit of bend or a readiness to bend...

God I'm useless with the words around these things. 😂

What Milliepops said.

I wish I'd known about this back when the beast used to trot along with his arse pointing to the inside of the arena!
It took a lot of effort to sort that out

 

[tristar]

think of it as slight position to the inside,so the horse appears straight from behind

 

[DabDab]

What she said.

The Beast has a recurrent falling in through shoulder issue. Riding the shoulder slightly in.... or being in readiness to ride the shoulder slightly in seems to help stop the shoulder just falling in. When I'm thinking shoulder fore there is a slight but significant enough ask that keeps the shoulder unweighted which means she doesn't dive inwards through it. What you're really getting is an activated inside hind and a bit of bend or a readiness to bend...

God I'm useless with the words around these things. 😂

What Milliepops said.

I think you describe it well - I think shoulder fore a lot when schooling for the same reason.

And just to add, biomechanically speaking, a horse's shoulders aren't particularly useful. They don't create forward motion or effect a turn, particularly because horses don't have collar bones, just the big sling of muscle across their chest. But while they can't help forward flowing movement, they can in the way of it, so as a rider you need to help the horse get its shoulder to get out the way and become a willing servant of the back end, rather than blocking the impulsion coming through or driving turning energy down into the ground through one shoulder or the other. And being able to put a horse in shoulder fore or shoulder in at any point is a good way to encourage both you and horse to keep the shoulder out the way

Sorry, that was probably a lot of waffle 😂

 

[ycbm]

I'm currently doing this on Ludo on the right rein all the time, on the instructions of my GP level trainer, because he naturally carries his quarters to the right, and shoulder fore aids put him straight by bringing his shoulders in line with his back end. I've never had a trainer tell me to do it all the time before, but I get the 'quarters are wider than the forelegs' explanation too.


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[Mule]

I'm currently doing this on Ludo on the right rein all the time, on the instructions of my GP level trainer, because he naturally carries his quarters to the right, and shoulder fore aids put him straight by bringing his shoulders in line with his back end. I've never had a trainer tell me to do it all the time before, but I get the 'quarters are wider than the forelegs' explanation too.
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Do you just do it on the right rein because his quarters come in more at that side?

 

[ycbm]

His quarters always go right, so on the left rein I used to have to slightly travers to get him straight, but he was pretty straight with a slightly behind the girth right leg aid today, so the training is working

.

 

[Mule]

His quarters always go right, so on the left rein I used to have to slightly travers to get him straight, but he was pretty straight with a slightly behind the girth right leg aid today, so the training is working

.

What do you find is the best way to get a horse's stiffer side more supple?

 

[ycbm]

What do you find is the best way to get a horse's stiffer side more supple?

Crikey, that's a question 😁 !!

It would depend on what feels stiff and why. Ludo isn't stiff, in fact he's far too flexible at the moment, and just not quite straight. But on horses that are stiffer on side than the other I'd usually end up doing quite a lot of shoulder in.

I also have an exercise I like a lot for stiff horses, that I call the lollipop tree. On the diagonal, I go from corner to corner alternating small walk circles to right and left, making very sure that the circle is done with the outside shoulder staying up and coming forward with a clear change of bend through the lollipop stalk. When I first got Muffin we did a lot of lollipop trees to unlock his rigid shoulders.

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[Mule]

Crikey, that's a question 😁 !!

It would depend on what feels stiff and why. Ludo isn't stiff, in fact he's far too flexible at the moment, and just not quite straight. But on horses that are stiffer on side than the other I'd usually end up doing quite a lot of shoulder in.

I also have an exercise I like a lot for stiff horses, that I call the lollipop tree. On the diagonal, I go from corner to corner alternating small walk circles to right and left, making very sure that the circle is done with the outside shoulder staying up and coming forward with a clear change of bend through the lollipop stalk. When I first got Muffin we did a lot of lollipop trees to unlock his rigid shoulders.

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I shall give this a try😊

 

[Bernster]

Dumb question but is shoulder in the same as shoulder fore?

I do shoulder in (I think!) for Finnegan too. Bit like ycbm he is a bit wonky - has a tendency to fall onto his left shoulder so I need to ride s-in on the left particularly to help him stay straight but actually it works on both reins I think due to the the being narrower in front thingy. Haha. Even worse with words!

 

[Palindrome]

Bernster, shoulder for is like a tiny shoulder in, you don't ask for as much angle.

Interesting, I more or less had to on my mare as she was super spooky but otherwise no, I would always strive for "descente de main"/"descente de jambes", basically just stop applying aids when the horse is going properly.

 

[wren123]

Shoulder in is more than shoulder fore, more bend through the body.
Shoulder fore I just used to think about bringing the horses shoulder in slightly, just enough to straighten horse.

 

[milliepops]

Dumb question but is shoulder in the same as shoulder fore?
!

no the difference is that shoulder in has a defined angle & degree of bend, so when done correctly the horse should be on 3 tracks.
Shoulder-fore has a shallower angle & less bend and in practice you can vary that to suit your purposes.

 

[milliepops]

sometimes in (mostly US) articles you will see mention of "first position" and I think that explains the "thinking shoulder-fore" thing discussed earlier.