Am I alone in this view?

[FieldOrnaments]

I must admit the aggression from some pro R+ people is really putting me off it.
There's more than one way to skin a cat; you can love, care for, want the best for, and make a positive difference to a horse with other methods too, it isn't and never will be one size fits all. Misapplied it could certainly cause a horse to go backwards as much as any other school of training.

 

[smolmaus]

I must admit the aggression from some pro R+ people is really putting me off it.
There's more than one way to skin a cat; you can love, care for, want the best for, and make a positive difference to a horse with other methods too, it isn't and never will be one size fits all. Misapplied it could certainly cause a horse to go backwards as much as any other school of training.

I know you mean specifically me. Everyone else has much more patience. But are you ignoring the people insinuating everyone who criticises SY has basically never touched a horse before or that despite a literal student of applied behavioural science giving us the benefit of their literal expertise, that we are all just throwing treats at horses and would be killed immediately if we tried training a difficult one?

This happens every time anyone mentions R+ (not mentioned by any of the people who advocate for it, in this thread. Brought up by a critic). If I allowed myself to be put off pressure-release by the behaviour of its advocates I would have burned all my headcollars and would be leading a pony past an open haylage bale with only the power of thoughts and prayers. Have a spine. Letting one slightly mean forum poster "put you off" learning about an entire quadrant of how all sentient creatures learn is pathetic.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I know you mean specifically me. Everyone else has much more patience. But are you ignoring the people insinuating everyone who criticises SY has basically never touched a horse before or that despite a literal student of applied behavioural science giving us the benefit of their literal expertise, that we are all just throwing treats at horses and would be killed immediately if we tried training a difficult one?

This happens every time anyone mentions R+ (not mentioned by any of the people who advocate for it, in this thread. Brought up by a critic). If I allowed myself to be put off pressure-release by the behaviour of its advocates I would have burned all my headcollars and would be leading a pony past an open haylage bale with only the power of thoughts and prayers. Have a spine. Letting one slightly mean forum poster "put you off" learning about an entire quadrant of how all sentient creatures learn is pathetic.

Whoa, name calling isn't pleasant, please edit your last sentence.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Wow

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Brb to shoot my horses because I don't use treats lol

 

[smolmaus]

Whoa, name calling isn't pleasant, please edit your last sentence.

No. I'm describing behaviour, not name calling. Report it if you need to.

Changing how you train your horses and what you learn about because a stranger on a forum is a bit bitchy about it is completely spineless.

 

[paddy555]

I know you mean specifically me. Everyone else has much more patience. But are you ignoring the people insinuating everyone who criticises SY has basically never touched a horse before or that despite a literal student of applied behavioural science giving us the benefit of their literal expertise, that we are all just throwing treats at horses and would be killed immediately if we tried training a difficult one?

a lot of people have not had to deal with the sorts of horses that SY is called out to. That is simply fact not criticism. If someone hasn't been put in that position their experience in dealing with such a horse is more limited and there really is the possibility they could get hurt. If someone has simply had relatively easy horses to deal with then SY's handling may look more extreme to them. OTOH is you are more familiar with the behaviour of the horses he visits then you can understand what he is doing and that he is using his expertise to try and resolve a situation.

.
It would be nice if all horses were nice easy ones and he wasn't needed but sadly unfortunate things happen to horses and they are left in a difficult situation. If SY can spend 2 hours making that horse's and owner's life better with a way forward then I cannot see a problem.

This happens every time anyone mentions R+ (not mentioned by any of the people who advocate for it, in this thread. Brought up by a critic). If I allowed myself to be put off pressure-release by the behaviour of its advocates I would have burned all my headcollars and would be leading a pony past an open haylage bale with only the power of thoughts and prayers. Have a spine. Letting one slightly mean forum poster "put you off" learning about an entire quadrant of how all sentient creatures learn is pathetic.

I really don't think forum posters are going to be put off learning about a method if they are interested. I have spent a lot of time today reading about R+ (for want of a better word to describe it) and watched some Utube videos. I am unconvinced that in the video I posted that it would work nor that it would be in the horse's best interests in sorting it's immediate problems nor that it would be safe in that confined space. As far as treats go the horse has already been over treated and is ruling the roost over treats.

I don't understand your comment of leading past a haylage bale with only the power of thoughts and prayers. Why wouldn't it and I don't get where pressure/release comes into your point. Sorry bit lost on what you mean.

 

[PurpleSpots]

a lot of people have not had to deal with the sorts of horses that SY is called out to.

But many of us have - and 'worse'.

 

[smolmaus]

I really don't think forum posters are going to be put off learning about a method if they are interested. I have spent a lot of time today reading about R+ (for want of a better word to describe it) and watched some Utube videos. I am unconvinced that in the video I posted that it would work nor that it would be in the horse's best interests in sorting it's immediate problems nor that it would be safe in that confined space. As far as treats go the horse has already been over treated and is ruling the roost over treats.

I don't understand your comment of leading past a haylage bale with only the power of thoughts and prayers. Why wouldn't it and I don't get where pressure/release comes into your point. Sorry bit lost on what you mean.

You also say this every time R+ is mentioned, almost verbatim, which is why I usually have you on user ignore but I do want to point out for everyone else that this is a script. I don't think I believe it is true, certainly not every time (unless you have significant issues with short term memory, in which case I apologise.) Luckily, a scientific principle of learning doesn't need you to be convinced to be evidenced!

I'm lost by what you mean that the horse is "ruling the roost over treats" can you explain? Without using outdated and disproved theories of dominance please. If anyone talks to me about dominance I'm afraid I will have to never listen to a thing they say about anything ever again.

 

[paddy555]

I'm lost by what you mean that the horse is "ruling the roost over treats" can you explain?

then I would guess that you only watched the first couple of minutes of the video. If you had watched the whole thing right through to the carrots I don't think you would be asking this question as the answer would be clear. Actually it was pretty clear within about the first 5 minutes but still worth watching in full.

 

[smolmaus]

then I would guess that you only watched the first couple of minutes of the video. If you had watched the whole thing right through to the carrots I don't think you would be asking this question as the answer would be clear. Actually it was pretty clear within about the first 5 minutes but still worth watching in full.

I'm not talking about the video, I want to know what you mean by it.

 

[paddy555]

I'm not talking about the video, I want to know what you mean by it.

it you watch the video you will see precisely frame by frame what I mean, is the carrots part R + I would have thought it was.

The video shows the exact events inch by inch iro this horse and SY's training. We could discuss science, older style training which you appear to hate or anything else on paper or we could discuss real life events where a horse and his reactions are clearly documented for discussion. If you CBA to watch the video and discuss a real situation then we are a bit stuck in discussing how and if our views differ on this aspect.

You seem very keen to discuss "paper" ideas but not the real thing. I did expect you would have watched the video and then come back and told me I was wrong because you read the horse's reaction at various points as being something else in regard to the treats aspect and how you arrived at that conclusion.

I cannot see anywhere that you have told us how you personally would deal with this particular horse. Rubbishing SY or anyone else is fine but what would you do., Not all the R+ words, science etc etc. The owner is standing outside t he stable having called you as a trainer in with the brief to get the horse out of the stable and leading. Gives you a rope and in you go. What happens next?

 

[PurpleSpots]

The owner is standing outside t he stable having called you as a trainer in with the brief to get the horse out of the stable and leading. Gives you a rope and in you go.

As per my answer in post 128, if you think entering the stable with a rope is the starting point then you are just completely unenlightened.

And this perfectly illustrates how so many people get it wrong with so many horses.

 

[paddy555]

As per my answer in post 128, if you think entering the stable with a rope is the starting point then you are just completely unenlightened.

And this perfectly illustrates how so many people get it wrong with so many horses.

I was actually asking smolmaus as I realised you have replied

the horse is in the stable and you are standing outside. Presumably you agree that it is absolutely vital that horse is got out of the stable asap or do you think that it is OK to keep a horse restricted in a stable 24/7 indefinitely.. I don't. That would not be acceptable to me and I would want it out. It would be unacceptable to it's welfare, freedom,, friends and all that lot. To do that it has to be handled and led and to do that you have to open the door and go in. It cannot be run out in that particular accommodation which elsewhere may have been a possibility,

So SY and many others would have been able to get the horse out in a couple of hours and in a couple of days with a lot of intensive work of several sessions a day it would be possible to lead into a field or even just into the school for a run around and a roll.

I will happily remain unenlightened. Effective but unenlightened at least I would have given the horse some freedom. I don't really go much on lions kept in cages.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Genuine question for those who have had unhandled/feral horses... is it a good idea to put them in a stable to start with?

I would have thought a small turnout pen where they can at least see other horses would be better if there's a good chance they won't be able to be handled for several weeks/months? I find it upsetting some of these horses have been shut in stables for months; even a well handled horse would struggle with that.

The discussion seems to have gone a bit sideways but I stand by my preference for the 'energy' of someone like MP over SY. I like the middle ground ethos MP has of 'not too hard too much of the time, not too soft too much of the time' (if I have understood correctly). The videos of horses who seem equally capable to throw their hooves around and be inclined to bog off from the end of a lead rope is there, but he seems much lower energy the majority of the time.

The people who I feel have taught me well with being around horses are people who talk about the balance between human and horse - we should not be bullying them but equally we need them to 'respect' (wrong word) us. We are 'in charge' in a way that they can relax.

 

[dorsetladette]

Genuine question for those who have had unhandled/feral horses... is it a good idea to put them in a stable to start with?

I would have thought a small turnout pen where they can at least see other horses would be better if there's a good chance they won't be able to be handled for several weeks/months? I find it upsetting some of these horses have been shut in stables for months; even a well handled horse would struggle with that.

The discussion seems to have gone a bit sideways but I stand by my preference for the 'energy' of someone like MP over SY. I like the middle ground ethos MP has of 'not too hard too much of the time, not too soft too much of the time' (if I have understood correctly). The videos of horses who seem equally capable to throw their hooves around and be inclined to bog off from the end of a lead rope is there, but he seems much lower energy the majority of the time.

The people who I feel have taught me well with being around horses are people who talk about the balance between human and horse - we should not be bullying them but equally we need them to 'respect' (wrong word) us. We are 'in charge' in a way that they can relax.

When we had rescues or feral come in we used our large pens/foaling boxes (12×25ft each). The gates opened in a way that we could let them into the indoor school for exercise daily. We kept them in pairs generally. When they were confident enough they would be separated by a gate (covered so no accidents) but they could still see each other as still in the same 'pen'. It meant we didn't need to muck out round them or upset them. We'd spend our breaks sat in their pens drinking coffee or reading books. As they were right by the school they saw all the comings and goings.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

When we had rescues or feral come in we used our large pens/foaling boxes (12×25ft each). The gates opened in a way that we could let them into the indoor school for exercise daily. We kept them in pairs generally. When they were confident enough they would be separated by a gate (covered so no accidents) but they could still see each other as still in the same 'pen'. It meant we didn't need to muck out round them or upset them. We'd spend our breaks sat in their pens drinking coffee or reading books. As they were right by the school they saw all the comings and goings.

Thank you. That sounds like a much better set up for them!

 

[paddy555]

Genuine question for those who have had unhandled/feral horses... is it a good idea to put them in a stable to start with?

I would have thought a small turnout pen where they can at least see other horses would be better if there's a good chance they won't be able to be handled for several weeks/months? I find it upsetting some of these horses have been shut in stables for months; even a well handled horse would struggle with that.

no it's not a good idea if you are going to struggle to get them out again.. Is this video horse had been mine and I have had some like it then it would be stabled at night (bottom door shut) and because of the nature of my rather strange stables it would be surrounded by other horses in their stables so it would immediately see company and how the others lived. It would be let out to a field in the daytime and would get itself out so no battle and it would go with a suitable field mate to look after it. It would start copying it's friend so would get into a routine. Food in it's stable for it's return etc so no battle with me going in with food. As it got calmer I would leave the stable door open overnight so it had it's outside yard. Gradually as it wandered in at night I would walk alongside and then just put a rope round it's neck to lead it.
The easiest and laziest way of dealing with them is to let other calm horses do the job for you.


. Semi ferals ie straight off the moors I would stable and they would be worked but they could wander around the yards. .

 

[maya2008]

If I had access to a crush (and facilities allowing me to drive the horse into it) so I could vaccinate and treat an unhandled animal, I would turn an unhandled horse out and work on trust loose. I won’t let a horse die from tetanus or other infection though, so if no appropriate facilities, they have to stay in until handleable for those basics. In is safer from a medical standpoint and with competent handling for a standard feral without trauma, doesn’t last long.

***

Something that bothers me in some approaches is that you’re training a specific small behaviour rather than a whole horse. Not a behaviour essential to being tame like wearing a headcollar or accepting touch, but how to hold their heads or their bodies around humans. Horses are living, thinking beings not robots. I don’t want my horse to learn to hang her head low when she is around me - I want her to learn to help me when I need it, using her brain rather than shutting it down. I don’t want my horse to learn to have her ears forward because that is what she learns to do around humans. I want them to be a true reflection of her feelings. I can see that the people advocating these approaches feel that one = the other but I’m not so sure. It makes me uneasy, a bit 1984 if you will.

I love a sassy mare though - I love that when they’re on your side they use their incredible intelligence FOR you as part of a partnership. I love that our newest gelding lightly shoulder checks my teenager and cheekily pokes at him when he’s a bit out of sorts to bring him back to himself. I love that our original Shetland taught that same boy grit, determination and considerate riding - through discipline, a bit of fear and a whole dose of respect. The horseman he is today is because she pretty much beat that into him - with love, but boy was she strict! He adored her to the moon and back, still does and we still visit her.

Anyway, I should leave this and go back to real life and real ponies. I think this discussion is probably just two sides who will never agree!

 

[smolmaus]

it you watch the video you will see precisely frame by frame what I mean, is the carrots part R + I would have thought it was.

The video shows the exact events inch by inch iro this horse and SY's training. We could discuss science, older style training which you appear to hate or anything else on paper or we could discuss real life events where a horse and his reactions are clearly documented for discussion. If you CBA to watch the video and discuss a real situation then we are a bit stuck in discussing how and if our views differ on this aspect.

You seem very keen to discuss "paper" ideas but not the real thing. I did expect you would have watched the video and then come back and told me I was wrong because you read the horse's reaction at various points as being something else in regard to the treats aspect and how you arrived at that conclusion.

I cannot see anywhere that you have told us how you personally would deal with this particular horse. Rubbishing SY or anyone else is fine but what would you do., Not all the R+ words, science etc etc. The owner is standing outside t he stable having called you as a trainer in with the brief to get the horse out of the stable and leading. Gives you a rope and in you go. What happens next?

You still haven't answered my question. I wanted you to explain the words you were using. But fine if you can't. That also tells me something.

I don't care about the video, I never mentioned it, I haven't watched it since I saw it the first time and I don't intend to watch it again. I never wanted to discuss it. You bleat on about this video, demanding other people satisfy your need for a personal blow by blow method for a situation you have invented, and make up false boundaries and conditions to the point of ridiculousness. Nobody owes you that. You cannot come screeching into every thread that tangentially mentions R+ and demand a seminar, it is the behaviour of a spoiled child. You have just said above that you wouldn't be in this situation yourself as you wouldn't put a feral horse in a stable by itself, well SAME. There we go. We have both come up with the same answer. Wonderful.

I will happily remain unenlightened. Effective but unenlightened at least I would have given the horse some freedom. I don't really go much on lions kept in cages.

This has always been obvious. If you could talk about learning theory I think you might have by now.

 

[dorsetladette]

Wow there are a few personality traits I'd consider undesirable on this thread.

 

[Nancykitt]

When we got our first horse 23 years ago Monty Roberts & Parelli were all the go, (although people tended to follow one or the other). We were probably greener than our cob and although he wasn’t horrendous we would be bombarded with ‘advice’ - which was usually fell into either ‘horse whisperer’ type stuff or ‘good old-fashioned no-nonsense’ (sometimes looked quite harsh). The contradictory advice was a nightmare. We did our best, watching carefully what had the best impact over time. We probably made mistakes along the way but overall it worked out (and we still have that cob). Having a riding instructor who was also a good trainer was incredibly helpful to us.

So I really do feel for new/inexperienced owners with a tricky horse and I wouldn’t blame anyone for wanting to get a quick result via a trainer, especially when they are on a yard and under pressure. And in the age of the internet there is easy access to tons of stuff. Headlines of videos have to be attention grabbing and melodramatic because that’s the way monetorisation works. Desperate and/or novice owners looking for ‘answers’ will have no shortage of material and that’s probably not a good thing.

I can only say that, with our horses, things that worked really well with one haven’t necessarily worked as well with another. We’ve had to adapt at times. Our horses came from different situations and were shaped to some extent by their experiences.

We thought we’d built up some knowledge over the years- and then we got Ozzy. He’s challenged so many of my ideas on what I thought I knew. We continue to learn!

Incidentally, back in the day when training was polarised into horse whispering, (‘natural’ horsemanship)
and what was typically described as more ‘old fashioned’ approaches, I came to realise that they weren’t so polarised at all. I’ll never forget going to a Monty Roberta demo and thinking that some of it looked incredibly harsh and even cruel. But the crowd loved him and cheered him on because they had declared themselves Team Monty. They bought the merch and proudly declared that they had found the answer for any horse in any situation.
I learnt a lot at that demo, but it was a lot more about humans than horses.

 

[smolmaus]

Wow there are a few personality traits I'd consider undesirable on this thread.

When someone starts following you round the forum yapping at you every time you post about a given topic, you tell me how long you stay polite

 

[rabatsa]

Keeping mules taught me lots about how to handle and get an animal on your side.

 

[Matafleur]

Gah, I really wasn't going to get involved in this .

I can't understand the continual desire from some posters to dismiss R+, it is science. You can't argue that it doesn't work, it does, and it is extremely effective. Like all methods, it is only as good as the trainer, but I would say it's more forgiving than many. If you think that it just consists of giving your horse treats then you have fundamentally misunderstood how to apply it, your ignorance is not the fault of the method.

However, I probably wouldn't use it in all situations. Not because I don't think it would work, but because it is a method that requires time and patience. Maybe I don't always have both of those things available .

In terms of Steve Young, I have said before that I think many people do P&R in a much better way. Michael Peace, TRT, Richard Maxwell all have a (publicly at least) much nicer way with the horses. But maybe they've never had to deal with a difficult, dangerous horse either?!

I really like TRT, I've been using it with my new horse (as well as R+) and it's been very effective. I do use a rope halter when I'm working with him and when he leaps away from something (because he is young and insecure currently) and hits the end of the rope I'm sure that halter is very uncomfortable for him. I have accepted that because I want people to be safe handling him, but let's not kid ourselves that we aren't causing our horses pain when we apply a lot of pressure in these halters, that's why they are effective.

I will say that, far from being robots, all the animals I have used R+ with are much more inclined to look to problem solve. This brings its own issues when training but is also quite fun.

 

[paddy555]

Wow there are a few personality traits I'd consider undesirable on this thread.

do you mean this?

You still haven't answered my question. I wanted you to explain the words you were using. But fine if you can't. That also tells me something.

I don't care about the video, I never mentioned it, I haven't watched it since I saw it the first time and I don't intend to watch it again. I never wanted to discuss it. You bleat on about this video, demanding other people satisfy your need for a personal blow by blow method for a situation you have invented, and make up false boundaries and conditions to the point of ridiculousness. Nobody owes you that. You cannot come screeching into every thread that tangentially mentions R+ and demand a seminar, it is the behaviour of a spoiled child. You have just said above that you wouldn't be in this situation yourself as you wouldn't put a feral horse in a stable by itself, well SAME. There we go. We have both come up with the same answer. Wonderful.

This has always been obvious. If you could talk about learning theory I think you might have by now.

if so then it gave me a laugh.

Please don't think we have come up with the same answer. To do that we would have to discuss real life horse behaviour of a horse SY was working on and you seem unable to do. That is a shame as you do little as an advocate of R+.

 

[paddy555]

I’ll never forget going to a Monty Roberta demo and thinking that some of it looked incredibly harsh and even cruel. But the crowd loved him and cheered him on because they had declared themselves Team Monty. They bought the merch and proudly declared that they had found the answer for any horse in any situation.
I learnt a lot at that demo, but it was a lot more about humans than horses.

that's interesting as I went to one and felt exactly the same. I felt the odd one out with all his groupies. In our demo. he had a v. large pony that bucked for a pastime. His rider who I think could have been Grant got on after all the join up stuff and rode. He was a good rider and stayed and I think he had bucking reins on. Everyone thought the unrideable horse was a great success. No further explanation and we stopped for the break,

I asked MR if that was it with the pony, he had done a really good job and now the horse could go home rideable by the owner as that was the impression given. Apparently not, it was going to need a lot of experienced work etc etc. I thought you didn't tell the crowd that. There were left with the impression of a miracle happening. From studying that horse I doubt it was ever going to be rideable by the owner and it was going to take an awful lot of work even for someone experienced. No mention of vet, saddle or anything else.

He didn't like me. The others were all queueing up with his book for have it signed, I don't think he expected questions to justify his work on the horse. Like you that demo told me far more about humans than horses. The horses were very easy to read. No egos there to contend with.

 

[Nancykitt]

that's interesting as I went to one and felt exactly the same. I felt the odd one out with all his groupies. In our demo. he had a v. large pony that bucked for a pastime. His rider who I think could have been Grant got on after all the join up stuff and rode. He was a good rider and stayed and I think he had bucking reins on. Everyone thought the unrideable horse was a great success. No further explanation and we stopped for the break,

I asked MR if that was it with the pony, he had done a really good job and now the horse could go home rideable by the owner as that was the impression given. Apparently not, it was going to need a lot of experienced work etc etc. I thought you didn't tell the crowd that. There were left with the impression of a miracle happening. From studying that horse I doubt it was ever going to be rideable by the owner and it was going to take an awful lot of work even for someone experienced. No mention of vet, saddle or anything else.

He didn't like me. The others were all queueing up with his book for have it signed, I don't think he expected questions to justify his work on the horse. Like you that demo told me far more about humans than horses. The horses were very easy to read. No egos there to contend with.

Exactly. People were utterly desperate for the quick fix and although Parelli and Roberts were selling a 'method' (complete with branded headcollars ropes, sticks etc), they relied heavily on the demonstrations of 'miracles' to boost their credibility.
He 'started' one horse - a nervous young mare. Usual join-up, during which the mare looked super-anxious. His assistant then held the horse while he put a saddle on it, possibly for the first time. A dummy was then put on the horse. Poor thing was terrified, launching around the pen, bucking and sweating like crazy. Everyone was laughing hysterically. I had gone with a neutral/mildly positive outlook but that did it for me. He then talked about the 'buck stop' device; although he didn't use it, I thought it sounded incredibly cruel.
During one of the loading sessions he asked Kelly Marks to do what he referred to as 'schooling' with a horse; this consisted of leading and then very strongly jerking the rope under the chin to back the horse up. When the horse loaded, everyone proclaimed it a miracle; I just wondered if it was a one-off.
He didn't like me either - I got the impression that he was not open to discussing any part of his methods. I didn't like the way he talked about being abused by his father and then applied that situation to the horses - because, apart from anything else, he really wasn't treating them nicely at all. i was very inexperienced but even I could see that the horses were not happy at being treated in this way.
I never went to a Parelli demo but I saw a lot of videos. Similar thing in that it was marketed as 'natural' and 'kind' - and was definitely not.

The human drive to find the 'answer' is as strong as ever. And if it comes with a miracle quick fix, so much the better.
I can say that some of the R+ approaches that worked beautifully with AJ are not working with Ozzy. But that's OK because we can work with him to find something that helps, especially in terms of building trust - which is more important to Ozzy than any other horse I've owned.
Regarding SY and all the other trainers featured on YouTube, I'm sure they have some success but I don't think any give the full picture in a single video. I've seen a video compilation of Michael Peace working with a horse over a period of weeks/months and it was much more informative.
But people still want the quick fix! And they love to see a miracle.
I like some of the TRT approaches but I'm not a disciple of any single method and never will be.

 

[PurpleSpots]

I'm not really sure where this thread turned into a pro R+/anti R+ thing...

I think those of saying we are uncomfortable with SY (and by extension any unethical training) are just saying that we only feel comfortable with ethical training. That's what I'm saying anyway.

My hypothetical scenario of standing outside the stable until the horse is calm etc does not outline any form of R+. It's just outlining the least non-ethical way to deal with and work to improve that forced hypothetical situation that I could offer. It is in fact flooding. Putting a horse in a stable in the first place is flooding too.

What makes training intolerable for me is when the horse is put into a situation when they are at risk of emotional, mental or physical damage. And in just the first few clips of the SY video shared, all those types of damage could be considered to be likely taking place.

Use species-specific management to keep horses, observe and respond to their input, go at their pace, stay under threshold, and don't damn well put them in situations where they are likely to give themselves whiplash and resulting soft tissue issues and headaches because you think it shows you are 'experienced' enough to hold onto them when they strongly express they cannot cope in that situation any longer.

I have said before and I will say over again until my dying day - I have made alot of mistakes along the way, and wish I could go back in time and show myself what I know now. The same will likely be true in another 10, 20 years time. Even next month I expect. We always think we know best, or that there is no better way, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it that way. But it's not true, and that is the crux of enlightenment and remaining truly open to doing the best we possibly can.

 

[dorsetladette]

do you mean this?

if so then it gave me a laugh.

Yep - plus other posts.

And I don't feel like it's only aimed at you.