Am I hard or just realistic and humane?

Can't believe this is still going on but it's very interesting to read the replies.

Something I must point out though which I think has been missed by a few is I haven't ever said it's not sad and very hard on the owner and that they don't deserve condolences, that was not the point at all. The point was why do people say and think it's a brave decision because it's not as in most cases it's the right decision if it's down to medical reasons and to do anything less would be wrong for the horse.

I think the owner can be brave about making the decision (nobody, even me, likes to end a life unnecessarily) but the decision itself is not bravery when it's the right thing to do in their circumstances.

That probably is no clearer now than when I started but put it this way; I do offer condolences on most RIP threads if I see them and I do mean it; I know how it feels to lose something you love, I'm not that hard hearted.
 
cptrayes said:
Amymay from the way that you and I both post it is obvious that we are both decisive individuals who have little difficulty reviewing the facts and making a decision.

This simply isn't true of most female horse owners, and for them it is not easy to tell when the right moment to put a horse down is unless the vet says "do it" , and most vets won't unless the horse is critically ill.

The best question to ask a vet, I would suggest to anyone in this position, is "what would you do if this was your horse?".
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I agree with you :eek::)

Re: the vet. Yes, I had that exact conversation with my vet about one horse. My question was slightly different in as much as I asked if I was doing the right thing in having the horse put down, and it was met with an emphatic yes. It was made slightly difficult because the horse looked magnificent. However lameness issues in fore and hind limbs were making life every more difficult - and no amount of medication was improving the quality of life, or was going to......
 
Maesfen said:
That probably is no clearer now than when I started but put it this way; I do offer condolences on most RIP threads if I see them and I do mean it; I know how it feels to lose something you love, I'm not that hard hearted.
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I don't think anyone can read your original post and think you are hard hearted. You are just for the horse - which is what it is all about.
 
Maesfen said:
Can't believe this is still going on but it's very interesting to read the replies.

Something I must point out though which I think has been missed by a few is I haven't ever said it's not sad and very hard on the owner and that they don't deserve condolences, that was not the point at all. The point was why do people say and think it's a brave decision because it's not as in most cases it's the right decision if it's down to medical reasons and to do anything less would be wrong for the horse.

I think the owner can be brave about making the decision (nobody, even me, likes to end a life unnecessarily) but the decision itself is not bravery when it's the right thing to do in their circumstances.

That probably is no clearer now than when I started but put it this way; I do offer condolences on most RIP threads if I see them and I do mean it; I know how it feels to lose something you love, I'm not that hard hearted.
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It's an interesting discussion M, and one that we need to talk about often. Too many horses are left in pain too long by owners more concerned about their own pain than the horse's.

I'm bothered by my friend's gelding though. He was bright, chirpy, young - and lame. He had no future even as a light hack or a companion, being a highly strung TB type. The brave decision after a year's lameness (mostly mechanical, he was not in constant pain and looked normal unless trotted up) would have been to have him put down. If he had been put down everyone who knew him would have agreed it was the right decision.

But it wasn't. He's now out jumping every week!

He's made me think a bit, I can tell you :)




ps Amymay I think the first sentence can be interpreted as pretty hard, but I'm not sure Measfen meant it quite as strongly as it can be read :)
 
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Actually, I think it can be very brave to choose to put a horse to sleep. When you've got an old horse say, that looks ok some days and not on others, maybe kept on a yard where you're surrounded by people telling you how hard and unkind you are to have it put down and it's ok really, just bute it up and leave it... I think going against that and doing what you know in your heart to be best for the horse is very brave, when actually it would be so much easier to leave it, and wait for the crisis that makes the decision for you and not have to deal with the whispers that you've only done it because the horse can't be ridden and you want a new one, or how they would have kept it going and it was fine really, or all the other things people say.

Nor do I think a kind word to someone going through such a hard time as losing a good friend, human, equine, canine or whatever, is wrong.
 
ps Amymay I think the first sentence can be interpreted as pretty hard, but I'm not sure Measfen meant it quite as strongly as it can be read
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Having been on the forum now for a number of years, I have the utmost respect for Maesfen and her opinions - knowing as I do that they come from a position of experience, kindness and thoughtfulness.
 
I agree with the OP.
Either a horse is treatable (which must take into consideration its best interests) in which case I pay for treatment.
Or it isn't, in which case I have it PTS.
Of course I miss them, but in life death and taxes are the two certainties.
S :D
 
I think that's the exception that proves the rule though Cptrayes. A good friend had colic surgery done on a 25 yr old pony. Given that he looked half his age, the vets were v positive about the outcome when they first came, until she mentioned his age when they said pts. She's made the decision to let others that if anything she was more attached to be pts when needed so it wasn't a first time selfish decision. She said she 'just knew' it was right to do for him. He recovered so quick even the vets were shocked. If I didn't know her so well, I'd have been inclined to think pts would have been best.
I think tho this is a rare exception, she still has no explanation of why she thought it was best. I think on the whole tho I could live with letting one go years before there time easier than I could live with knowing the last few weeks or months of its life the animal had suffered.
 
I wouldnt say you were 'hard', just use head more than heart.

I know people who keep their blind, deaf, skinny, scabby animals ticking over as they can't bear to loose them- and I think they are totally blinded by their attachment to the animal, it isn't fair and the animal is totally miserable.

I think it is a very difficult and brave decision for an owner myself, no loving owner wants to put their animal down. If a family member is in terrible pain and dies- it is better for them but it doesn't stop you being absolutely devastated.

Depends how much you can overlook the emotional side and see the logical benefits I suppose. I use my brain a lot and make logical decisions- whilst being very emotional and sobbing at the same time :P
 
cptrayes said:
It's an interesting discussion M, and one that we need to talk about often. Too many horses are left in pain too long by owners more concerned about their own pain than the horse's.

I'm bothered by my friend's gelding though. He was bright, chirpy, young - and lame. He had no future even as a light hack or a companion, being a highly strung TB type. The brave decision after a year's lameness (mostly mechanical, he was not in constant pain and looked normal unless trotted up) would have been to have him put down. If he had been put down everyone who knew him would have agreed it was the right decision.

But it wasn't. He's now out jumping every week!

He's made me think a bit, I can tell you!
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Conversely though it could have have gone the other way, (playing devil's advocate here!) My mothers friend has an elderly labrador that was recently operated on for pancreatitis, he went through the mill and then seemed to make a remarkable recovery, everyone thought the surgery was the right move, however a few weeks later and symptoms are returning and the poor old dog looks so miserable and in pain, and the owner can';t let go as the vets keep trying to help him; so I'd be questioning if treatment was worth it for a few weeks reprieve.

Sometimes the risks of things not working and essentially having the potential to create further suffering have to be taken into consideration, and being pts avoids further suffering. I think that there is a danger than sometimes you may know of a horse that has recovered from something and so it encourages owners to continue with treatment that may not have the same outcome and so prolongs things. We can all grasp at straws when we are desperate and sadly it isn't always in the horse's best interests.

With a young horse I sometimes think that it can take a couple of years for things to heal properly and providing the horse isn't in constant pain and bright and chirpy then it's possibly worth a try. It's when pain and discomfort are a constant and a horses life is affected I would pts.
 
Maesfen said:
Maybe it's because I've been around horses for a very long time including nearly forty years professionally but I'm getting more and more narked with those that post on PTS threads about what a hard decision it is and how brave the owner's being.
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I've also been around horses a long time, been a paid rider in the past, etc., and I'm sick of hearing from amateur horse owners, not necesssarily on here, how its kinder to pts relatively young horses either because they do not do the job they want them to or because they are becoming middle aged and have a condition or ailment manageable under vet's treatment.

The concept that a horse under 14 for example is incapable of being found a suitable home elsewhere and would prefer to be pts than "suffering" is arrogant beyond belief. Likewise, I know more than a few professional competition riders who have their ex-competition horses retired in the lap of luxury for many years, or relatively poorly off people who have their ordinary horses and ponies retired, even though it means they cannot afford that luxury holiday or new car that year.

Fair enough if the horse is actually in serious, unmanageable pain. IMHO if you buy a horse, you make a lifetime committment either to keep it with vet bills if necessary or reasonable or rehome it sensibly, not to throw it in the rubbish heap because its no longer any use to you. Even a few years retirement is some payback to the horse. If you can't commit to that, you should stick to buying cars, not living animals.

Being hard in the world of big business or even high level competition has its place, however I don't really find it justifiable in the world of pet owning. Not my sort of people.

Rant over.
 
cptrayes said:
It's an interesting discussion M, and one that we need to talk about often. Too many horses are left in pain too long by owners more concerned about their own pain than the horse's.

ps Amymay I think the first sentence can be interpreted as pretty hard, but I'm not sure Measfen meant it quite as strongly as it can be read :)
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I'm the first to admit I don't have a way with words, lol but you're right, it is something that needs to brought up every now and then if it helps just some horses not linger in pain and misery.

amymay said:
Having been on the forum now for a number of years, I have the utmost respect for Maesfen and her opinions - knowing as I do that they come from a position of experience, kindness and thoughtfulness.
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THanks AM, that's very kind and I'm blushing now but I'm not infallible you know, I do get it wrong sometimes! I had a poster given to me for Christmas, it says
"I'm never wrong.
I once thought I was wrong,
Turns out I was mistaken"
It'll be hanging in the kitchen when I've found a frame for it!
Mauridia_07.gif
 
amymay said:
Having been on the forum now for a number of years, I have the utmost respect for Maesfen and her opinions - knowing as I do that they come from a position of experience, kindness and thoughtfulness.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. Maesfen once offered me some much needed kind words when I made the difficult but realistic decision to have my daughter's pony to put to sleep who had cancer, even when vets were offering surgery and chemotherapy. I valued those words hugely from someone I know is so experienced and professional.
 
Mithras said:
Fair enough if the horse is actually in serious, unmanageable pain. IMHO if you buy a horse, you make a lifetime committment either to keep it with vet bills if necessary or reasonable or rehome it sensibly, not to throw it in the rubbish heap because its no longer any use to you. Even a few years retirement is some payback to the horse. If you can't commit to that, you should stick to buying cars, not living animals.
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Is it possible for a person to "sensibly rehome" a horse which is very old but sound? Unless you can rehome it to somewhere where you can check on it yourself once a week or more, to someone who you know for a certainty that you can trust not to take it to the sales for a few quid, how do you "rehome sensibly"?

I think that in that situation you would keep the horse and have nothing to ride, but I do not think that is the right answer for everyone. While your horse is sitting in the field having a happy retirement, another one that you might have bought and ridden is going in a tin. Apart from the fact that you know one horse and not the other, where is the general benefit to horse-kind in your approach over the person who has their horse quietly and humanely put to sleep, safeguarding its future for the rest of time?

You may think it is possible to choose the right person, but I know someone who rehomed her injured and unrideable mare as a brood mare to someone she had been friends with for many, many years, a police officer to boot. Imagine her distress, never mind the fate of the horse, when she discovered that the mare had been sold, in foal, unseen by the buyer, and that the buyer, after a year, could not account for where the then 20 year old mare was? The horse and the original owner would have been better served if it had been put down in the first place.
 
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I do agree that the animal should always come first. However, giving the vet the go ahead is one of the most hard things I have had to do. I have had two horses pts and also 10 old cats over the years and for me it never gets easier.

We knew it was Cairo's time, but actually saying to the vet go ahead and kill my horse/cat is a horrible thing to have to do, and whilst I do it, everytime I do feel bad even though it is the right thing to do. I do agree an animal should never be left in pain and suffering no matter how hard it is to give the go ahead.

Cairo went very peacefully with arms round him and love, and afterwards we cried for hours and four years later, we still have tears at times and do miss him. He was more than a horse, he was a member of our family and for hubby and I, it was as upsetting as loosing a brother or sister. Maybe we are wrong to be so attached to him?

I also believe that people should be given the same way out if they ask for it. Having recovered from cancer, I have said to my hubby should it come back and not be cureable, I don't want treatment, just good pain management and the choice to go when I want rather than a long painful period of illness and being in bed unable to do anything for myself which for me is worse than death.
 
Theresa_F I 100% agree with you about a human right to die. We can end the suffering of our animal families but there is no option for quiet dignity for a human if they so choose. It's preposterous!
 
Alphamare said:
Theresa_F I 100% agree with you about a human right to die. We can end the suffering of our animal families but there is no option for quiet dignity for a human if they so choose. It's preposterous!
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I also agree! My Mum said to me she wishes she could have made the same choice for her Mother, that we made for the cat today. Her poor Mum was suffering so much and we had to watch her slowly die over the course of many months. My cat was gone within seconds and she didn't go through any pain. Why is a human not allowed that? Even when they're begging?
 
cptrayes said:
Amymay from the way that you and I both post it is obvious that we are both decisive individuals who have little difficulty reviewing the facts and making a decision.

This simply isn't true of most female horse owners, and for them it is not easy to tell when the right moment to put a horse down is unless the vet says "do it" , and most vets won't unless the horse is critically ill.

The best question to ask a vet, I would suggest to anyone in this position, is "what would you do if this was your horse?".

I have a friend whose three horses in the last two years were treated as follows:

An elderly mare who was arthritic to the point of not being able to lie down for a year before she was put down. I think that one was left too late.

An elderly mare who was arthritic but could easily have been made comfortable with bute for quite a while longer and had a lot of life in her eyes as I held her for the injection. She wasn't ready to die. On economic grounds I agreed with her being put down, but on welfare grounds it was too early.

A young gelding who got a stifle injury with a very poor prognosis. After treatment and extensive rest the horse was still lame after a year. I recommended them very strongly to have him put down, a decision which the vet agreed with. They had bred him, he was breaking their hearts and costing them more and more with no good end in sight. They gave him more rest and he was booked to compete his first BE this weekend. How stupid do I feel now?


I've personally had two very easy decisions - one total kidney failure and the vet offered me 24 hours to say goodbye. I said no and he was shot two hours later. And one blind and panicking four year old.

But most decisions simply aren't that easy and I do think Maesfen's post is hard, because even when the decision is easy, it still hurts. So I still say anyone who makes the decision, easy or not, has to be brave to carry it through, my own personal definition of "brave" being to do something which you know is going to hurt and/or which the thought of scares you.
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Excellent post, cptrayes.

What you say is so true. Vets very rarely recommend PTS. In fact, in my experience, they try to offer every last possible treatment before PTS. Sometimes this is to the detriment of the animal. I so wish I'd had my dog PTS when he was diagnosed with cancer. He was at the best animals hospital in the country, but he suffered for months in absolute agony with a brain tumor that had, I believe been wrongly diagnosed as lymphoma. He went through weeks of chemo. In the end he could not lower his head to drink, and still the vets wanted to do more tests and try more treatments. We paid them over £8k and in the end had to INSIST he was PTS. It breaks my heart to think that we let this happen. On the other hand, when my mare did her shoulder a couple of years ago, the vets did not actually say the words, but did say that it was unlikely she would even be paddock sound. However, I knew my girl, and could tell she was in high spirits and so took her home and nursed her through it. She did have a major relapse about 3 months after she was allowed to be turned out again, and I though that was it, but she recovered within days and she has been 100% sound since except for mild laminitis in her other front hoof that was Cushings induced. In fact she is so good now, that I have started long reining and lunging her to help keep her weight down, and she has remained completely sound. I am almost tempted to ride her, but I won't.

So the decision of whether to PTS is not one that most vets are helpful with, though your idea of asking them what they would do is a good one. I did try it though with the vets that treated my dog and they said 'keep going'. :(
 
Every situation is different, so there's often not a clear right answer.

If (for example) a horse has suffered an illness or injury, but it has a chance of recovering and being free from pain, even if it is unable to be ridden again, then the fate of the horse depends on its owner. If an owner decides to pts then there’s nothing wrong with that - the horse doesn't know. On the other hand, if an owner has the time and money and wants to keep him as a pet, then there’s nothing wrong with that either.

The only time I feel compelled to tell someone my opinion on this matter is when I see an over sentimental person keeping a horse living, who is in pain and who has no hope of improvement or recovery from the pain - that really is cruel.

One of my horses, would have been pts by the majority of owners, simply because he's a 17.2hh quite highly strung, ex- racer, who has a number of wear and tear problems (one of them being KS) meaning he can no longer be ridden. He's high maintenance and unfortunately doesn't do well if turned out 24/7, but he's is currently in no pain and is completely field sound. I can afford to keep him, and I enjoy looking after him.
 
Been thinking about this thread.

My post was a reaction to what I perceived as Maesfen's OP, which I read as being dissmisive of people, as in those who could not have an animal pts without doing it and then continuing life without a backward glance or thought. I admit it surprised me as I thought I 'knew' her from my time on here.

Having read M's second main post, I now understand what she had meant in the OP.

Two things:

Bravery is doing something that scares and upsets and/or worries a person, but they do it anyway. So, for some, having an animal put to sleep is being brave.

How does one decide when it is right to have an animal put to sleep, if it isn't a glaringly obvious case. I have examples:

Mozart - St Bernard - suffering bouts of bloat despite surgery. She wouldn't cry out in pain. The episodes were becoming more frequent. The last bout of bloat might have responded to surgery, but there was every chance it would happen again. I didn't want her to die alone and in pain, so I took the decision and had her put to sleep. The vet concurred and did it, but he didn't tell me to do it. It still hurts now. Was I right or wrong?

Tiggy - chronic damage to both hind suspensory ligaments - only four and a half years old. Vets said field ornament. I read up on the subject and started asking the vets more questions. I watched Tiggs carefully, reporting back to the vets when I could see that Tiggs was having trouble turning, then staling. It was just going to get worse, but it wasn't worse then. It was October and the ground was still okay, but the autumn rains would come and then Tiggs would be hurting, but she wasn't then. The vets didn't tell me to have her put to sleep - I put my research and Tiggs state of play to them and asked if it would be the right thing to do for her. The insurance company said no. I told them to boil their heads, as did my vet. The day before she was due to go to the AHT (chose to take her there so Sue Dyson could carry out further investigation afterwards, to try and help others - Tiggs was too young and with too little mileage to be so damaged), I was still researching ways of saving her, and the insurance company was still saying No. I knew that no matter what they said, that this was right for Tiggs, even though nobody else had actaully told me to do it: further conversations with my vets, after I'd made the decision, had confirmed it; watching her move and how she interacted with our herd had confirmed it.

So, two times where a vet didn't tell me to do it. It was the right thing each time, but it would have been 'easy' to let both Moz and Tiggs go on without anyone saying otherwise.

And the third one: Little Lad. I was convinced (after the fact) that I should have had him pts a year ago. He was so unhappy through the winter. I failed him then. I posted on here and had interesting responses from both sides (I was feeling a tad teary at the time, for various reasons, hence the post in the first place). He was okay last summer, just a little doddery at times, but bright eyed and still moving. My vet saw him and was surprised he was looking so good. I worried about the winter that was coming - weather reports said it was going to be horrensously cold and snowy, so I booked the vet to come and do the deed. As the day got closer, the bad weather didn't arrive (there should have been a couple of days overlap), so I put the vet off for a few days... Since then, the pony has been as right as rain! He gets a little stiff every now and then and his version of sweet-itch is back, but with the occassional Bute or Devil's Claw, and a fly sheet, he's doing just fine! Running with the herd when he feels like it, being pals with a couple of the others, even playing! He has mild Cushings, but it isn't restricting him. He's prone to laminitis, but we have a system to manage that when the grass starts coming through. With this pony I don't know if I've done right or wrong overall - I'll qualify that, I believe I did wrong a year ago, but now I still have an apparently happy and reasonably sound/healthy pony.

And finally Dizzy. A vet told me to 'get rid of her as she would never do what I bought her to do'. I asked who would take on an apparently permanantly broken 16+hh slightly whappy DWB mare that wouldn't be able to carry a foal, and who then was only rising five. The advice was to 'get rid' (I'm not quoting verbatim, but that's the gist). With this one it didn't seem right to let her go. I've fought for her for three years and she's just now coming right - at no stage, even though she wasn't 'right' for some part of that time period, did I ever feel for sure that we'd reached the end. I still question myself though as Dizz has to be kept muscled to keep her sound; occassionally I get it wrong and she loses it, but whilst I can get it back now, what will I do when she gets older, or if she has some other issue that means she can't be worked. I hope I'll have the guts to do right by her.

Having a life in one's hands is such a humbling experience. I always thought I'd know what I was doing and that I would react in exactly the right way for the animal concerned - after all I'm a professional business woman with a reasonably good brain - but as my examples show, I haven't always got it right, or have I?
 
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Maesfen said:
.......

I had a poster given to me for Christmas, it says
"I'm never wrong.
I once thought I was wrong,
Turns out I was mistaken"
It'll be hanging in the kitchen when I've found a frame for it!
Mauridia_07.gif
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Love it!!

Actually you're not wrong, you're right, but deciding when the right time is upon us, isn't easy. The problem, it seems to me is that we have to ask our selves a basic truth; are we keeping the animal for ourself, and our own feeling of self worth, or are we to put the well being of the poor creature, first.

When we can answer that, we will reach a decision! ;)

Alec.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
My motto is, " better a day too soon than a day too late."
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This, exactly. I don't normally read the pts threads, unless the OP is one I know, because of the "you're so brave" platitudes. It's not brave any more than it would be brave not to abandon a newborn child or walk past an injured person in the street - just because it would be cowardly not to, doesn't make it brave by default. It's just doing what is right.

I dread making those decisions with my horses. I know I will be racked with guilt and uncertainty (about whether the time is right) and all the pain of losing a friend, but I hope that I will not shy away from the decision (as I haven't with other pets), or feel compelled to seek advice from a forum, whose members are (in some cases) of questionable expertise and limited insight since they haven't seen the horse, over the carefully chosen professionals who treat my horses.

I also know from experience that the platitudes don't help. In my experience, they only make me feel worse about the situation. As a result, I doubt I would post on here about such a decision.
 
*Maddy&Occhi* said:
I think your being way too hard... why would this be such an issue for you :confused: possibly you have too much time on your hands...
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Because once you've spent enough time on this forum you too may well notice the amount of posts saying that someone doesn't know what to do about their clearly end of life horse. And the multitude of replies that they'll get telling them how brave they are for making what is the right decision for their horse. When in fact it's not brave - it's responsible.

And as for too much time on their hands. Have you just broken up from school, hence your rather ignorant and immature response?
 
amymay said:
Having been on the forum now for a number of years, I have the utmost respect for Maesfen and her opinions - knowing as I do that they come from a position of experience, kindness and thoughtfulness.
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Well said :) Sentiments I echo entirely.
 
amymay said:
Because once you've spent enough time on this forum you too may well notice the amount of posts saying that someone doesn't know what to do about their clearly end of life horse. And the multitude of replies that they'll get telling them how brave they are for making what is the right decision for their horse. When in fact it's not brave - it's responsible.

And as for too much time on their hands. Have you just broken up from school, hence your rather ignorant and immature response?
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Having to put a horse to sleep is not just a responsible thing to do, its also a brave decision to make, especially if there are other alternatives to keep the horse alive. Nearly having to go through this myself I know how incredibly hard it is. I dont think your in a position to be criticising people who have to make such a decision!!

As for your comment regarding my maturity... :rolleyes:
 
*Maddy&Occhi* said:
Having to put a horse to sleep is not just a responsible thing to do, its also a brave decision to make, especially if there are other alternatives to keep the horse alive. Nearly having to go through this myself I know how incredibly hard it is. I don't think your in a position to be criticising people who have to make such a decision!!
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When you've done it as many times as I have, I think I'm very much in the position to comment.
 
I think it's more a figure of speach coming from the person who is trying to comfort a person who has just made the decision, I can see where you coming from but at the same time I can understand why people say it.
 
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