Am I hard or just realistic and humane?

To scorn those who find it difficult is just not cricket. I said earlier we are only human and our emotions are what makes us who we are. To say goodbye to your beloved pet is damned hard work, and if people need support and help along the lines of 'fluffiness', then so be it.

Animals can be a person's whole world, and we need to be able to grieve for them. Part of that process can be found in seeking solace from others, whether it be the patting of hands, or telling them they are brave.
 
Realistic.

I am a novice - ive been riding on and off for 18 years. I have owned my horse for the last 8. I do love him and care about him, but when it boiled down to it.........if he needed a 3k operation or PTS it would be PTS as he is just a happy hacker and not even worth half that. And yes, it does boil down to his worth.

I think because I grew up around farms (not on them though) and rescuing wild animals that were close to deaths door - I can handle an animal dying. I understand it from an economic stand point. And also, we put some animals through things that if they were a human they would be asking WHY on earth are we doing this.

BUT the law gives us the choice to end their suffering. So really, If an animal was to live the rest of its like at 90% health and on drugs and as a field ornament that drains the owners purse, I would say PTS. We have too many horses as it is with problems that get palmed off on charities, who then have to try to fix them, and maintain them when the owners should have just done what was needed.
 
I consider myself to be realistic and humane. I have always made the best decisions I could for my animals, based on the information I had available. That does not mean I have not found it hard and that I have not had to dig deep in order to make that decision.

So I disagree to an extent with the OP - I think it is brave to make a realistic and humane decision and those that do so should be supported.

I cannot understand anyone trying to diminish how tough it is to make a decision to end a much loved pet's life. Of course that is a hard decision for most people and so it should be. If you can do it without a moment's compunction, that feels more like coldheartedness than bravery. Bravery is doing something even though it hurts. If you feel nothing, then you are hard, not brave.
 
Suggesting that it's not brave to make the right decision implies that everyone can make the right decision every time and it requires no special effort. But that's not true.

And there are two situations when it comes to putting an animal to sleep which are very different and bravery definitely comes into one of them.

If your horse is clearly in a lot of pain which can't be resolved with some painkillers to keep them comfortable for even the next few hours then it's a straightforward decision.

But when the horse is mostly comfortable and there's hope then it's harder.

My vet did suggest that to PTS should be considered when he suffered a horrid SDFT injury which didn't respond to treatment or prolonged boxrest. I posted about it on here and people said PTS. Rightly or wrongly I decided that although he was only comfortable on bute, i needed to give him more time because he still had his sparkle and there was still hope! So I did and 18 months after the injury he was field sound and 6 months or so later was field sound without drugs and was out hurtling about with his fieldmate.

It's easy for me to say now that i did the right thing keeping him going because he did come right again but equally I could have been criticised for keeping an older horse going who was lame and highly unlikely to ever recover (the vets didn't think he would).

Anyway, what's wrong with showing compassion for others going through a tough time by saying they're brave and supporting them through it?! It's only words but it can make a huge difference to someone's mental wellbeing if they percieve that others understand the difficult time that theya re going through.
 
What I have gleaned from reading every single post is that sometimes the decision is clear cut, other times not so, & that sometimes even Vets can make a bad call.
As someone who has owned & loved cats, dogs, & horses as companion animals all my life, I have never hesitated to put their welfare before mine, although the loss of any beloved animal is devastating to me.
I feel it is only a difficult decision where there is a shadow of doubt, because once done
it cannot be reversed. Something I have not experienced so far, but I can fully understand how someone in this situation would look to others for reassurance.
In every post including the OP I see the same sentiments but just expressed differently by the individual posters.
 
Annie44 said:
In every post including the OP I see the same sentiments but just expressed differently by the individual posters.
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Yup me too, I commend you O/P for bringing this subject up, its good to talk about it. As upsetting as we might find it when the time comes, it is indeed something we need to be realistic about.

I don't overly dwell on the thought of any of my horses dying, but I know its going to happen at some point and most likely I will have to make 'that' decision so I have mentally and practically prepared for it as much as possible.

Re the brave thing, I think it *can* be a brave decision, as someone else said, brave is feeling the fear and doing it anyway. But ONLY if the decision is actually made (and ideally v quickly once all the facts are known) and the animal doesn't suffer for an unreasonable length of time.

I have seen people dither and procrastinate, not necessarily because of a confusing medical diagnosis (this can be very tough) but simply because they cannot handle the idea of losing their pet. This to me is selfish and cowardly. To me bravery is facing that fear head on and doing what's right for the animal no matter how upsetting it might be.

As others have said, when we take on a companion animal we have to accept we will most likely outlive it so no matter how attached we are to them, it is our duty to be brave and face up to reality .

I also like the livestock will = deadstock comment in one of the replies, this is so true....
 
To answer the question posed, OP's post appears realistic and hard, and somewhat inhumane in the manner chosen to articulate sensitive concepts. This is evidenced by the lack of care to who may be hurt in the style of writing chosen. I would suggest this is likely to be a problem with interpersonal skills.
 
Mithras said:
The concept that a horse under 14 for example is incapable of being found a suitable home elsewhere and would prefer to be pts than "suffering" is arrogant beyond belief.

Rant over.
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What you have to realise is that a vet will not put a heathy horse to sleep unless there's absolutely no alternative.
I am a qualified veterinary nurse, the general public cannot just 'request' that a horse is euthanised purely for their own benefit, it's unethical and not good clinical practice. Gone are the days when the vet would do a 'favour' for a yard owner, it just doesn't happen like that anymore.
I would suggest the opposite, too many people keep horses going for their own selfish benefit or continue to compete at a level that their horse is clearly no longer capable of.
It's clearly a contentious subject but in my experience , both professionally and personally 99.9% of owners are devastated and making this difficult decision with only their horses best interest at heart.
 
Wagtail said:
Excellent post, cptrayes.

What you say is so true. Vets very rarely recommend PTS. In fact, in my experience, they try to offer every last possible treatment before PTS. Sometimes this is to the detriment of the animal. I so wish I'd had my dog PTS when he was diagnosed with cancer. He was at the best animals hospital in the country, but he suffered for months in absolute agony with a brain tumor that had, I believe been wrongly diagnosed as lymphoma. He went through weeks of chemo. In the end he could not lower his head to drink, and still the vets wanted to do more tests and try more treatments. We paid them over £8k and in the end had to INSIST he was PTS. It breaks my heart to think that we let this happen. On the other hand, when my mare did her shoulder a couple of years ago, the vets did not actually say the words, but did say that it was unlikely she would even be paddock sound. However, I knew my girl, and could tell she was in high spirits and so took her home and nursed her through it. She did have a major relapse about 3 months after she was allowed to be turned out again, and I though that was it, but she recovered within days and she has been 100% sound since except for mild laminitis in her other front hoof that was Cushings induced. In fact she is so good now, that I have started long reining and lunging her to help keep her weight down, and she has remained completely sound. I am almost tempted to ride her, but I won't.

So the decision of whether to PTS is not one that most vets are helpful with, though your idea of asking them what they would do is a good one. I did try it though with the vets that treated my dog and they said 'keep going'. :(
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I so identify with this post.

A friend of mine had a lovely 5yo PRE, she went down to him one morning and he had put his foot through the sheep netting (I know, I would not have used this either) completely severing the tendons in his leg. She called the vet, fully intending to have him pts, when vet arrived he insisted they rush him to hospital and operate. The operation was a failure and they could not rejoin the tendons, my friend again wanted to pts. Vet insisted they cast the leg, animal would be mechanically lame for the rest of his life but would be out of pain. Friend agreed. Three months down the line (horse hospitalised for whole time), the horse was still lame, very depressed and looked awful, the light had gone from his eyes, my friend now insisted the vet pts, he had to very reluctantly but not before making her feel very guilty about it and refusing to admit humane destruction to her insurance company. The bill for all this was £8k.
 
I agree I think a lot of the fault lies with vets who don't seem to want to accept that an owner wants to Pts. It's not the first story like that I have heard!!

That said, the hunt or the local knackerman will come and put a horse down with very few questions asked.

I think it's deplorable that gets wont put a horse down unless there are no other options. The vet may think there are but it's still down to the owner to decide how much treatment they or the horse can stand. Also I know I would Pts a horse before rebooking as a companion or sending to a charity. That to me is responsible horsemanship and shame on any vet who feels that these are preferable alternatives!
 
Havent read all the posts but agree with above.

I had a wee mare, very very ill, could not stand up. Illness had been on and off for months so I made the decision that enough was enough.

Vet came round, Mare got up as stranger in her stable. He knew he was coming to PTS but started going on about further treatments despite knowing the history of the illness and knowing that I was a competent and realistic owner.
They trust me enough to give courses of injections to give so I like to think they think I am a competent owner!
I stopped him dead and told him to go and get his big needle, discussion was over!

It was my decision, I knew the mare, not him.
Sometimes think that vets are looking at the £ signs, was certainly the case in this situation.
 
morrang800 said:
I am a qualified veterinary nurse, the general public cannot just 'request' that a horse is euthanised purely for their own benefit, it's unethical and not good clinical practice. Gone are the days when the vet would do a 'favour' for a yard owner, it just doesn't happen like that anymore.
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If that is the case, I find that appalling and very arrogant of them. It is not up to them to question anyone's decision and indulge in emotional blackmail to change their mind and thereby earning more money in the process.
The owner wouldn't be doing it with a light heart or on a whim, it would be because it was necessary for them, who are the vets to judge them for their reasons?
 
My equine vet is actually pretty good in fairness. His line is 'as your vet I can offer x treatment, but would you like to know what I'd do if my horse was in this position?' However I know plenty more who just offer more treatment & use guilt to persuade the owner to keep going. When my elderly dog had terminal cancer I was plagued by the vet to put her through a hospital stay & treatment for at best another 2 weeks of life. When I stood my ground the vet had the nerve to use the phrase 'if you really loved her'
 
thats shocking littlelegs. If my vets came out with something like that Id be using another.

Ive not come up against a vet questioning my decision or arguing the toss.
Re: the filly I mentioned in another post on this thread, she had had a course of treatment at home and two procedures at horsepital (unsuccessful) and although we had asked what else was there we could do (which the vets explained, and that it was a slim chance, and what the outcome would be even if the procedure was a 'success')
We did ask what the vet would do if she was his, and he said at this point i would be euthanising her, so we did.
 
Capriole- I did. Had another vet to do the deed & didn't use them again. Moved away not long after or I'd probably be warning local pet owners off still.
 
Maesfen said:
If that is the case, I find that appalling and very arrogant of them. It is not up to them to question anyone's decision and indulge in emotional blackmail to change their mind and thereby earning more money in the process.
The owner wouldn't be doing it with a light heart or on a whim, it would be because it was necessary for them, who are the vets to judge them for their reasons?
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100% agree with this.
I would think that the majority of people who call a vet and ask them to pts an animal, are doing it after alot of emotional upset and really don't need the vet making comments such as the comment made to littlelegs by her vet.
Surely having a horse pts by the vet or the hunt is better than selling the horse through a low end saleyard with the intention of it going to the knackerman, or worse still, leaving the animal to suffer on.
Kx
 
:D Yes but remember he who pays the Piper calls the tune, ok its probably good for business to keep treating something at the owners expense, but the final decision remember is up to the owner !
 
cptrayes said:
Because it hurts like hell to make that decision and see it through and some decisions are not that straightforward - how much pain is any one horse in - some are obvious, some are not.

Too many people leave it too late, but I understand their pain.
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Absolutely agree with this.
I think you are inhumane not to feel other people's pain about losing a loved one whether it be an animal or human.
 
Maesfen said:
If that is the case, I find that appalling and very arrogant of them. It is not up to them to question anyone's decision and indulge in emotional blackmail to change their mind and thereby earning more money in the process.
The owner wouldn't be doing it with a light heart or on a whim, it would be because it was necessary for them, who are the vets to judge them for their reasons?
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I totally agree that most owners wouldn't be making the descision on a whim and have probably explored other options if it was a perfectly healthy horse.
I was responding to a previous post, that suggested some people can't be bothered with their horse any longer and rather than explore other options would just put them to sleep. Not all vets would euthanase on these grounds.
Ultimately though, it's always the owners final decision and you should never feel bullied into treatment. A vet can only advise but there are guidelines that 'should' be adhered to on ethical grounds when it comes to humane destruction, especially of healthy horses
 
And what about the guidelines for a horse worth only its meat value? Not necessarily old but say a colt similar to many that end up as meat?
 
With the multitudes of horses living either neglected lives, sent for meat, or dragged from low end auction to low end auction, with low quality foals born each year in vast numbers to add to the problems, I think putting down a healthy horse is the least of a vets worriesthat has seen the lower end of the horse world tbh.
 
Maesfen said:
Maybe it's because I've been around horses for a very long time including nearly forty years professionally but I'm getting more and more narked with those that post on PTS threads about what a hard decision it is and how brave the owner's being.

That is such a load of clap-trap.

Why is it hard or brave to make the right decision to put a horse out of misery from illness, lameness, misery or plain old age? To let it go on in pain which is untreatable or non-recoverable from is the height of cruelty, nothing more and nothing less and those that do this should be ashamed for putting themselves before their horses.

Surely everyone should have the well being of the horse at the centre of their minds and if that means putting down so be it? To do any less or dally because 'you can't bare to be without him/her' is the height of selfishness or do I now live in a cloud cuckoo land where people always put themselves before their horses and sod the poor horse because they can't have their feelings hurt?

Yes, it's hard to lose a pet of any description but you go into ownership knowing you are likely to outlive it and a decision will have to be made at some point; they don't all curl up and go for a never ending sleep; it would be very nice if they (and even people) did but they don't. People have to put up with their infirmities but an animal doesn't if it has caring owners that always put it first. Please be one of those owners, your pet/horse will thank you for it.
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I have not read all the replies- for this I apologise to you.

For 2 pence worth- Humane/Hard , I am not fussed what people want to word it as.

They are the same thing;

Hard- for You and I as owner

Humane for animal.

It is hard for us BUT we do it because we love them and it is the right thing to do.

xXx
 
Doing the right thing is not always the easy thing to do. Even thought we know in many cases euthanising is the responsible humane action, is it wrong for people to seek solace in other horse owners to affirm their decision and share the pain.

We lost our first horse in November. It was out of the blue. The kind words I received from other HHO's helped enormously. OP, if you dont like those sorts of threads perhaps it might be best not read them.
 
Wow a lot of posts and some very good comments on here.
I do think that Maesfen perhaps worded her original post in way by which it could be misrepresented and misunderstood. I find this especially true after reading her second post. I have been a member of this forum for 5 years now and have seen people come and go, met some lovely folks on here ( not in real life yet) and made some good friends.
Maesfen is not one of my friends as we do not know each other well enough.
However I have read with interest a number of her posts over the years.
If I also recall correctly she also helped or offered to help with the Operation Esther appeal in aid of the horses rescued from Amersham 4 years ago. Hardly the attitude of someone who is hard and not compassionate.
I can see what she was trying to say, although I do disagree with the term brave, as I do believe it is a brave thing to do to have any animal pts. We may be making the right choice for them but not for ourselves and we open ourselves up to grief and loss :(
That said I would much rather be crying over a lost loved pet than to keep one alive for my own 'needs'.
I think as outsiders we can often see when the time is right to let go. However we are not the person who is emotionally attached to said animal so we can make decisions free from any emotion. They cannot in most cases and rightly or wrongly it is a hard decision for them to make.
However my own conscience and beliefs would not allow me to stand back and see any animal suffer because the owner was not brave enough to say goodbye. Call me interfering or not, if I knew the animal well, had shared the same experience with one of my own animals or could clearly see it was suffering I would have to get involved.
I have seen animals taken to vets when it was too late( not my own). I have not experienced this with anyone's horses yet and I hope I never do.
I have only ever seen one horse pts and that was earlier this year. It was a traumatic experience but it was not until I got home that I broke down and wept. A whole range of emotions feeling sorry for the owner and their loss, the horse losing its life but also knowing that it suffered beforehand after fracturing a major bone it its leg. I think it was the latter that made it worse for me personally because it was not obvious that the horse had done that much damage to itself.
Pets have come and gone over the years for various reasons and many have been taken to the vets to be pts. Some with the knowledge that it was the kindest thing to do, others because I felt that the problem was serious enough that recovery may not be a success or the animal would experience undue pain and I would not prolong a life for my own benefit. The rest were a shock as it was not known that they had serious life threatening issues as there were no clinical signs.
The hardest decision and perhaps bravest for me was having my beloved cat put to sleep last year. I knew that what she had was terminal. I did not have it diagnosed though, instinct, a good medical knowledge and research led me to believe that she had an over active thyroid. Treatments as far as I was aware was via medication for life, tablets and she hated those. Despite eating more than normal and losing a bit of weight for the most part she still enjoyed a life like she had before. She still came upstairs and jumped onto my bed, went outside and lay in the garden. In fact it was only in the last few months that she was not attempting to get onto the shed roof or climb along the fences.
I chose to have her pts before winter last year and wanted her to have one last summer as she loved lying in the garden amongst the plants. I will admit I was afraid to let her go but while she was still enjoying life I didn't want to rob her of any time. The day before I took her she seemed quieter and also quite thirsty. I did get her to drink and she was eating, urinating and pooping. The following morning there was no improvement and she seemed dehydrated so I made the decision that it would be her last day. It was August and a beautiful day. She went in and out of the cat flap a couple of times and lay outstretched in the sun on the lawn. Although she was aware I was there and of her surroundings she seemed weak and could not mew properly. Did I leave it too late? That is something I cannot answer as there was no way of knowing that she would take the turn that she did. Up until those last 2 days of her life she was still very much a cat. A bit older and more frail than she once was, but still who she had been for 15 years of my life. As she was half Siamese you knew when she was around. Given the same circumstances someone else may have either given her the treatment to prolong life ( cannot be a cure), ended her life a month, even 6 months before or else left if until she was in a collapsed state of heart failure.
We all react and respond differently to situations that we are forced to face. To me there is never any wrong way to go about it so long as the animal is not being kept alive for our own benefit or is in pain or suffering.
For me personally and treatment or medication that is given to any animal in a life prolonging/saving situation has to be worth it in the long run. As humans we are aware of the side effects of drugs and operations and we take those risks. Animals can only express pain in an obvious format, yelping, crying out, limping, increased heart rate, temperature etc. We make that choice for them of giving drugs, hooking up to IVs, operating on etc not truly understanding what pain or discomfort it is giving them to do so.
I would not put any animal through all that just so that I could spend an extra few months/years with them if the treatment did not have 100% success rate, caused a lot of pain/discomfort or meant that the animal would need pain relief daily for the rest of its life or medication which caused them a range of side effects.
I guess the long and short of it is really is that we can never truly understand the choices that someone is forced with and ultimately make because we are not that person and we have no emotional attachment to their animal(s)
 
morrang800 said:
What you have to realise is that a vet will not put a heathy horse to sleep unless there's absolutely no alternative.
I am a qualified veterinary nurse, the general public cannot just 'request' that a horse is euthanised purely for their own benefit, it's unethical and not good clinical practice. Gone are the days when the vet would do a 'favour' for a yard owner, it just doesn't happen like that anymore.
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What a load of *******!!!

What ethical vet would condemn a horse to a life of neglect because the owner had wanted it to be euthanised and couldn't find some-one to do the job?

Not that you need a vet to euthanise a horse. On more than one occasion, we have rung both the hunt and the local equine crem, without a vet's intervention. In actual fact, this has been because the horses were old and not fit to put through another winter and we had discussed our decision (but not the exact timing) with a vet but it could equally have just been because we had got fed up of the horse.
 
I had to make the decision to have an elderly horse pts a few years ago , one that I had owned for more than twenty years but her health had deteriorated and she no longer had a good quality of life. It was difficult but the right decision and I felt relieved when it was done as I knew that if I had hung onto her any longer it would have been cruel. I was still devastated by having to go through with it but my vet was fantastic and made the situation as easy as possible for both me and the horse. Nobody should keep an animal that is in pain or has no quality of life and with a sympathetic vet the procedure can be dignified and peaceful, it was for us and I put that entirely down to vet that understood exactly what we were going through.
 
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