Am I hard or just realistic and humane?

[In The Real World]

Very interesting thread - Im a farmers daughter and subsequently grew up with a number of animals been destroyed or sold at the market etc destined for the butcher or the continent. I used to look after all the youngstock - every single one had a name and I became very attached but farmers dont keep pet cows (well my parents didnt) and I accepted this eventually as this was our way of life, but I can remember so many tears and upsets - especially when I came home from school to find one of my favorites gone

I also had a cow I used to occasionally ride home with the Milk Cows - at this point I was finally allowed my first pony! My parents decided it was maybe safer then me jumping bareback onto my favorite cow (who was amazing and always looked after me bless)

But my point is even with all this - I still found it really hard when I had to decide to have one of my horse's destroyed, I new it had got to be done, but it broke my heart - realisticlly his quality of life was slipping away fast and although I tried everything possible to help him, the only thing I had left was a massive vets bill and a horse who was in pain with no chance of recovery

I always thought I was fairly hard (and so do my friends) but the bond between horse and rider/handler can be so strong that you find yourself not wanting to let go - but I new I had to as he was suffering, I couldnt even look at my horses photo for weeks afterwards.

If I was to tell you what I do for a job now - you wouldnt believe me! But regardless - I still feel the same.

 

[Tiffany]

If you care about your animals it is a very emotional decision. When my TB mare injured herself at 19 years of age, people advised me to PTS because she could no longer be ridden She lived a perfectly happy life for another 4 years without medication and in the end it wasn't the injury that meant I had to make the decision to PTS

 

[Starzaan]

I think you're being a little hard too.

I completely agree that it is inexcusable to keep a horse going when the poor animal is suffering, just because the owner can't bear to say goodbye. I have seen too many horses in this situation, and it always reminds me that I've made the right decision with horses I've dealt with over the years.

However, it is a terribly hard decision, and I think it is an incredibly brave thing to do - to put your own feelings aside, and think objectively about what is best for the horse without letting your emotions cloud your judgement. I have had horses all my life, and have had my fair share put to sleep, but when my Roy boy goes I know I'll be heartbroken.

He's helped me battle severe depression since I got ill, and a cuddle from him is just about the only thing that calms me down when I'm in a tizzy and all I can think about is self harm. He's my best friend, and I will never, ever let him suffer, but my god that decision is going to be horrible. I would rather he went a month, a year early, and went happy and healthy, than went in pain and suffering, and if I have to make that decision, I will, but it will affect me badly.

So, we've had a chat, and he's going to go peacefully in the field for me, so I don't have to make that call!

 

[ribbons]

I think the word hard, as in hard decision, is being interpreted differently by different people here. It's not hard, as in difficult to know when the best thing to do for your horse is to let it go. It's in pain, poor quality of life , and no chance of improvement. I don't think anyone who genuinely cares about their horse doubts it the right thing for the animal. But that doesn't make it an easy time. The decision is obvious, and should not be a hard one, the situation however is an extremely difficult one for the owner.
There are, however some people who will cling to that animals life, because they can't cope with the feelings of losing it. That is selfish, in as much as they allow what is right for them to take priority over what is right for the horse ( or dog )
What we all should remember is, the animal knows and understands pain and suffering, and it probably understands when natural death is very close. It does not however understand that a decision has been made to end that suffering.
So yes it is a brave person, and an unselfish one that makes the decision, knowing it's best for the animal, but the worst possible for themselves. The person who makes the decision easily with a shrug is probably quite hard but no less a lover of their animal. Just realistic and less emotional. The only owner deserving criticism is the one who keeps an animal alive because they can't bear to let it go. You do suffer when you lose a friend, but not half as much as they suffer sometimes, being kept around when they should be gone.

 

[Donnie Darco]

I think it boils down to the fact you are responsible for killing the animal

Most of us have a conscience

It's a hard hard decision to make that call (pts) because of the above

Then add in all the fantastic times, blood sweat and tears you've put into that animal, then try and be rational at the end?

I agree with livestock=dead stock but farm animals are not pets. Not so much emotional attachment

 

[bensababy]

We take these animals as our own, look after them, and love them. PTS, whilst being horrendously upsetting is the last kindness we can show them.
Definitely a day too early, rather than too late.

This sums it up for me..

 

[MerrySherryRider]

The day it stops being hard, is the day I walk away from horses.

 

[Moobucket]

The problem is that sometimes there's not a clear cut moment when PTS is definitely the right decision. Life is sweet and so if on a sunny day and elderly horse can potter about and gently graze without too much obvious pain you think oh, not yet. Then the weather can change, you'll both be staggering through mud and the situation will be different. I suppose as human beings we are always hoping for those last few glorious days and no one wants to think of robbing their pet of that so yes it's incredibly difficult and people are brave.

 

[fatpiggy]

Hi Moobucket - couldn't agree with you more. My old girl is seeing out her final summer because I am just not prepared to watch her struggling with 8 inches of mud in the winter with legs that don't bend much. It is death by a thousand cuts for me to see her wobbling about and slipping and trying not to fall. She sees the mud and stands on the edge licking and chewing because she doesn't want to go through it. Until the most recent rain the field had dried up and she was fine pottering about in the sun but it tipped the other night and the mud is back and as bad again - she even has some mudfever which I had hoped we had seen the back of in March. I just can't do it to her for another 3 or 4 months come next November. My heart will be broken because in the 17 years I've owned her we've had to get through some very major health issues, but it breaks a little every time I watch her struggles. Her body is old and tired and just plain worn out.

 

[PolarSkye]

For me, one of the definitions of bravery is to put aside personal pain and do what will inevitably hurt you but benefit another . . . so by that definition then, yes, I do think that it takes bravery to make that final decision for a beloved animal friend.

I see what you are saying, but the impetus behind this particular decision isn't always clear cut and I think it's natural for people to sometimes find it difficult to know exactly when is the right time - and to find making that judgment call hard. Also, there is a huge difference between how a person feels (e.g., they find it painful, hard, confusing, etc.) and what they actually DO. If I wring my hands and verbalize alot about finding it difficult, hard, painful but still make that call to the vet, I have still done the right thing. For some people, expressing their feelings and anxieties is part of the process.

To sum up, I think you are being incredibly logical about what is (for many people) a very emotional decision. I also think you are being needlessly judgmental.

P

 

[Maesfen]

The day it stops being hard, is the day I walk away from horses.

That's silly. It will never stop being hard (on you) but if you think enough of your horse, the decision to end any suffering for their sake should be one of the easiest ones you'll ever make.

 

[cptrayes]

That's silly. It will never stop being hard (on you) but if you think enough of your horse, the decision to end any suffering for their sake should be one of the easiest ones you'll ever make.

I wish it were so simple Maesfen, but how do you define "suffering"?

As far as I am concerned the horse that I am currently awaiting confirmation of wobbler's syndrome on is "suffering". A proud horse who is usually physically very active and who is dominant in the herd is unable to turn a circle and stay on his back feet. He can't go out, he cannot stand up on a sloping field and the others are far too boisterous for him to be safe with them. He is temperamentally unsuited to being sent somewhere flat to be a field companion, he is violent to other horses, among other things.

It's likely that he will not be able be fixed (and that if he is fixed this time, it will recur some time sooner or later). He is currently very slowly degrading. But his front half is bright and healthy and his brain would not want him to die. He would not fit my vet's critieria for humane destruction, since he appears bright mentally and is still on his wobbly feet, and the veterinary professional oath (or whatever it is) would not allow it.

How long do I leave him like this if he does not recover? At some point in time, if he does not go critically downhill, I am going to have to make a value-judgement for him about his quality of life.

You think that would be easy. I don't shirk hard decisions, yet I would give anything to be able to hand that decision over to you

 

[MerrySherryRider]

That's silly. It will never stop being hard (on you) but if you think enough of your horse, the decision to end any suffering for their sake should be one of the easiest ones you'll ever make.

Ending a life is never an easy decision, nor should it be.

I think the decision when to end suffering is a different topic though. Ending suffering before it becomes unbearable is humane and responsible.

Being unmoved by it is different altogether. I've seen vets and knacker men choked up by the death of a loved (or unloved) horse.

Its no badge of superiority to remain hard faced when an animal dies.

 

[PolarSkye]

Its no badge of superiority to remain hard faced when an animal dies.

This^^^^^^^. Thank you for putting into a simple sentence what I failed to express in a whole post.

P

 

[jofwigby]

I wish it were so simple Maesfen, but how do you define "suffering"?

As far as I am concerned the horse that I am currently awaiting confirmation of wobbler's syndrome on is "suffering". A proud horse who is usually physically very active and who is dominant in the herd is unable to turn a circle and stay on his back feet. He can't go out, he cannot stand up on a sloping field and the others are far too boisterous for him to be safe with them. He is temperamentally unsuited to being sent somewhere flat to be a field companion, he is violent to other horses, among other things.

It's likely that he will not be able be fixed (and that if he is fixed this time, it will recur some time sooner or later). He is currently very slowly degrading. But his front half is bright and healthy and his brain would not want him to die. He would not fit my vet's critieria for humane destruction, since he appears bright mentally and is still on his wobbly feet, and the veterinary professional oath (or whatever it is) would not allow it.

How long do I leave him like this if he does not recover? At some point in time, if he does not go critically downhill, I am going to have to make a value-judgement for him about his quality of life.

You think that would be easy. I don't shirk hard decisions, yet I would give anything to be able to hand that decision over to you

I apologise in advance for being completely tactless and insensitive but your choice of words makes me think that you already know what you should do.

 

[Wagtail]

I apologise in advance for being completely tactless and insensitive but your choice of words makes me think that you already know what you should do.

I think that only cptrayes is in a position to know when is the right time and as she says his brain isn't ready to die yet. Yes, she knows what she needs to do, but it is a question of 'when'.

 

[cptrayes]

I apologise in advance for being completely tactless and insensitive but your choice of words makes me think that you already know what you should do.

Not tactless at all, don't worry. I know what I must do, the question is when.

I am lucky. Against all expectations even the low grade neck xrays that we got two hours ago show a clear step narrowing between C3 and C4 together with fragmentation of C4 into multiple chips. So I have a clear diagnosis.

I just realised that Wagtail has said the same thing immediately before me. Spot on Wagtail.

 

[Maesfen]

Firstly let me say I'm very sorry that you're in this position, it's not at all 'nice' and nobody wants to be there; no matter what I say there will be some that agree with me and those that won't but one thing I hope you all agree on is that the horse is always the priority.
Secondly, your vets must have a different view on a subject as poorly as yours is than my local vets would have. Mine (not that they would need to and that certainly isn't meant nastily to you) would be urging me to think of the horse and what is best for him now; I struggle to see what is humanitarian about your vets' attitude, just how bad does he have to become before they would sanction PTS? I know mine would be urging a day early rather than later.

That said, you say he is mentally bright but physically unable no longer to be leader of his herd, that he is no longer able to even be with them for fear of them damaging him (he doesn't know that does he, he only knows he's not with his herd and not in charge?) I'm almost willing to bet (not that you would and I wouldn't want you too either if that makes sense) that if he was put back in the herd that he would be made an outcast because of his inability to defend both himself and them which would make him very miserable and vulnerable. Also, if he went down I'd be very surprised that the new leader wouldn't do their best to beat him up thoroughly, exactly as they would in the wild to send him away from the herd so that predators aren't attracted to them all. Yes, I know we're not talking about wild horses but ours do still have those traits built into them which kick in when the need arises and this would be one of those times. In the wild with undulating land, your horse wouldn't stand a chance, he would be vulnerable to any prey and he and his herd would know it; you would be left with a broken spirit of a horse I'm afraid. To me, that scenario does not equate with quality of life for him nor can see the possibility of it improving as wobblers is known to be degenerating (think that's the word I need)

I certainly wouldn't want this recurring to him even if he does recover from this bout not least for him but also yourself; just how much more of seeing and keeping him like this in total separation would you be able to take?

As I say, I don't expect you to agree with me, it's just my view; I do have the added advantage of not being personally connected to this horse so can be more objective but even if it were one of mine, I wouldn't hesitate. I hasten to add that's not because I'm trigger happy, far from it but I do believe quality of life has to be a huge part of the decision and I can't see how he can have quality of life (other than the care you can give him) when he is this vulnerable all of the time and unable to move easily.
I'm sorry but hope that explains better how I come to my decisions. That still doesn't stop me from feeling like ***** about it though.


ETA! This was started straight after your post about him so I'm not being crass in response to the answers you've had from the vet, hope that's clear. x

 

[mulledwhine]

Sorry could not disagree with this more, although it makes loads of sense.

My old boy, went down 4 times, but always got up, after 3 minutes , the longest was half an hour, except for his last day, 4 years went between these episodes

I digress....

My immediate response was, was X stopping him get up .. Every time X was trying to help him, when he could not, he stopped everyone else coming near, and he was depressed after my boy went, who would have thought??

We really do not know how the horse world works, this herd is run by a big gelding, not a matriarch !!!

 

[Firewell]

I havent read all the replies, couldn't be bothered!

Of course it's hard loosing something you love and yes being selfless can be a brave decision. Bravery is doing what you MUST do even when you dont WANT to. Did we want to shoot our old horse because he had a dangerous heart murmer that meant he couldnt be ridden, was stiff and aged. No but we did because we knew we had to rather than risk him having a heart attack when noone was around. Was I not brave standing in the dark of the stable listening to the gun shot in the distance knowing I may as well have pulled the trigger myself on something I love?

Everyone has to face the fact that where there is livestock there is deadstock. It's not just animals where there is life there is death in general.

It is just the way it is, it's horrid but it doesn't mean that people can't be emotional about it.

Who are you to tell people how to feel? Who are you to take comfort away from someone being brave by not appreciating what they are going through.

Just because you are the sort of person who doesn't feel anything when a beloved horse passes, just because you are lucky enough to shoulder it, man up and carry on without a tear doesnt mean other people feel the same.

Sometimes it doesnt hurt to see things from someone elses POV and offer them comfort if you think it will make them feel better. In the same way I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone called you heartless for being able to dole out death sentences to whatever four legged beast you think needs it without a second glance, a tear, or a thought.

Just because you don't think putting a horse to sleep is a brave decision because it's a neccessary one doesnt mean that to someone else perhaps more emotionally sensitive it is a brave decision.

As long as someone comes to the right decision I don't see why it matters to you the words other people use to comfort them.

Some people see their horses as pets and family members. We don't all view them as livestock.

 

[cptrayes]

As I say, I don't expect you to agree with me, it's just my viewear. x

Maesfen I am in complete agreement with you. I have talked to my OH and we have discussed having him shot (I'm sorry folks, but I like to look the truth firmly in the face so I know I am making the right decision) before we go on holiday in a couple of days.

He is bright and appears happy, at the moment, so we have agreed that we would never stop wondering if a week of intensive physio will help him. Miracles have happened.

So he is going to a rehab yard, which will in itself be upsetting for him. He does not like leaving home but I cannot leave the responsibility of him with my house sitters. At the end of the week I expect to pick him up and call the hunt to shoot him.

This is not, though, an easy decision and I will always disagree with you on that one. For others who are less self-confident (call it arrogant if you like), with a vet saying that they will put him down if he is still unridable in six months time, it would be a nightmare. The decision, for me, is plain. But to look him in the eyes and deliberately take away his life when he is not ready to die? Easy? Never. Even writing it here has made me cry.

 

[Wagtail]

Maesfen I am in complete agreement with you. I have talked to my OH and we have discussed having him shot (I'm sorry folks, but I like to look the truth firmly in the face so I know I am making the right decision) before we go on holiday in a couple of days.

He is bright and appears happy, at the moment, so we have agreed that we would never stop wondering if a week of intensive physio will help him. Miracles have happened.

So he is going to a rehab yard, which will in itself be upsetting for him. He does not like leaving home but I cannot leave the responsibility of him with my house sitters. At the end of the week I expect to pick him up and call the hunt to shoot him.

This is not, though, an easy decision and I will always disagree with you on that one. For others who are less self-confident (call it arrogant if you like), with a vet saying that they will put him down if he is still unridable in six months time, it would be a nightmare. The decision, for me, is plain. But to look him in the eyes and deliberately take away his life when he is not ready to die? Easy? Never. Even writing it here has made me cry.

I really hope the rehab yard can do something for your boy cptrayes. I'm afraid that I could never take away the life from a horse that was not ready to die. I agree it cannot be an easy decision.

I actually disagree with having horses put to sleep BEFORE they begin to suffer. While they have any quality of life they will stay alive with me. A horse really would need to be ready to die, for me to make that call. I don't mean suffering in agony, as obviously there are some emergencies where the decision is an easy one to make. But when I put a horse to sleep I want it to be a release for it, and not a convenience for me.

 

[cptrayes]

The neck and the back end is ready Wagtail, he is losing condition very fast, but not the brain

 

[Wagtail]

The neck and the back end is ready Wagtail, he is losing condition very fast, but not the brain

Such a difficult decision to make. Poor boy, and poor you.

 

[Four white socks]

You are not hard, you simply put the welfare of the horse first. An animal shouldn't suffer just because the owner selfishly won't let go.

 

[Patterdale]

Now this debate really interests me....before I say this I will state that I have had 3 horses (aged 5, 10 and 21) PTS due to health problems, so I have made the decision in the past and am not anti but........

Everyone is very quick to jump on their high horse and say 'I'm doing the best did him blah blah'

How on earth can any of us be sure that by killing the animal we are helping it?

Do ANY of you know what happens after death?

This was first said to me years ago and has always stuck with me.

I think it's a valid point. NONE of us know - all we know is that every animal on earth goes to great lengths to avoid it.

I'm not sure what I believe but it is something that I always think of when this argument comes up

 

[Patterdale]

Like I say, I've still done it myself, and I believe it was a mercy for them. But none if us actually know.
Just something I ponder when this comes up.

 

[ester]

Do ANY of you know what happens after death?

This was first said to me years ago and has always stuck with me.

I think it's a valid point. NONE of us know - all we know is that every animal on earth goes to great lengths to avoid it.

this is slightly off topic but this is mostly because we are genetically programmed to reproduce, and once you are dead you can't do that, hence our genes would like us to avoid death at all costs.

I have no worries about what happens after death, just natural biological breakdown. I certainly do not think we are sending a horse in pain to anything worse.

 

[Patterdale]

this is slightly off topic but this is mostly because we are genetically programmed to reproduce, and once you are dead you can't do that, hence our genes would like us to avoid death at all costs. ' quote from ester


This is what I believe too. But like I said it makes you wonder.

 

[Maesfen]

This is not, though, an easy decision and I will always disagree with you on that one. For others who are less self-confident (call it arrogant if you like), with a vet saying that they will put him down if he is still unridable in six months time, it would be a nightmare. The decision, for me, is plain. But to look him in the eyes and deliberately take away his life when he is not ready to die? Easy? Never. Even writing it here has made me cry.

I think 'easy' is the wrong word and I shouldn't have used it, I apologise, but perhaps I should have used 'right' - I think in that when you know it's the right thing to do and for any caring owner there is no alternative which makes it an easier decision; it's when it's a 'should we?' scenario that is by far the hardest to call.

FWIW, I do hope the rehab yard can make a miraculous difference to your horse so he can have a bit longer as it won't be easy having that hanging over you while you're away.

I showed your post to my vet last night and he is horrified at the attitude of your vets as it is not their prerogative in any way to say they won't PTS because in their opinion it's too early, especially when the horse is so ill from a degenerate condition; they do not have the right at any time to turn down a request to PTS through illness, accident or age although they would rightly quibble/try to find an alternative if it was just a case of an owner being fed up of keeping an otherwise healthy animal but in the case of a sick animal, they have absolutely no 'right' to refuse you. Hope that's clear for everyone who seems to think otherwise.