Am I right or wrong?..

Ok so you don’t want the horse back. Lack of space? Concern that you overpaid the original owner due to not seeing the lumps and would lose money?

Would the original owner buy the horse back if you refunded her your profit and they paid the price you gave them originally?
 
I'm getting the impression that the buyer wants to keep the horse but is after money for the vet's bills? Is that right?

If so, this is out of order...any of us could buy a horse without a vetting and then have an issue diagnosed by the vet a day later. Under those circumstances it wouldn't occur to me to try and get the seller to pay for treatment/vet's time.
There seems to be a lot of evidence that the lumps were discussed during the viewing so I don't think it would be straightforward for this buyer to take you to court.
However, I agree with those who are advising to stay out of court if at all possible. You could call her bluff by offering to take the horse back - if it's just a case of her trying to get money out of this and she does really want the horse, she could back off at that point. But it's a bit of a risk, I suppose!

Hopefully the buyer will see sense and stop this action.
 
jhoward said:
It makes no difference to consumer laws /sales of good acts
Horse isn't fit for purpose
It's as also said no lumps or bumps so false advertising too
Oh I didn't notice would be a weak defence
It's your job/responsibility to spot these things .
Sorry I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
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It was found at the viewing & therefore disclosed & accepted prior to purchaser paying or loading him up!
 
Never put no lumps and bumps on an advert unless you are sure it is correct .
I can’t understand why dealers do that if your not sure as in been over the horse with a fine tooth comb don’t say it because you don’t know it’s true .
It weakens your position you said it was a clean horse in ad and then you say I had not noticed that.
For me as a buyer this and the fact the horse was discounted would be a huge red flag.
This is the weakness in your position that could lose you the case if it went to the small claims court .
I am not sure if your receipt will be enough to win you a case.
Your recordings could be interpreted as a dealer pressuring someone less experienced to buy.
That’s before we get to why you where recording the interaction and if you told the buyer that’s what you where doing I been buying horses for over fifty years and if heard a dealer was doing that I probably would never darken your door
Take the horse back that’s what good dealers do .
The story is out there and until take the horse back it will keep being a bad story for you .
You are a dealer taking horses back is inconvenient but if you don’t like the heat stay out of the kitchen.
What I would not do is pay the vets bill .
Offer to take the poor horse back in writing or a text and say you will pick it up that will concentrate the buyers mind .
Then live with what happens this one of the costs of the business you are in .
 
If I were you I’d say that you wouldn’t be putting money towards vets bills because whilst the bumps weren’t disclosed in the advert, the buyer was made aware of them at the viewing and had the option to walk away then. However I would then offer to take the horse back if that’s what they want (as it’s within 30 days).
 
This all seems to be about who is right and who is wrong. The question now is the best way to get out of it.

I'm not sure what this person wants but I would advise her that as she believes the horse has a problem then of course you will take it back and refund the purchase price. If you do that you may make a loss when you resell it however I guess some people will happily buy a promising young horse with rubs and will vet it to avoid future problems. If this happens then you sold a possible problem horse, took it back to rectify the situation and there should be no problems with your reputation.

If you argue the matter then it is going to cost if she continues. That cost may be more than the loss you may take if you just resell the horse. If she wins your reputation is shot and if you win then it will probably be the same but you will no doubt feel more satisfied.


There is also a bit more of a problem if you live close and locals will know you both.

If you were to pay any vet's bills they could be endless if by any chance sarcoids were found and had to have say the Liverpool cream and endless vet's visits.

I'm sure you may be right and people no doubt have a lot of sympathy for you but at the end of the day I would think the best thing for your business would be to ask for the horse to be returned and make the refund. You might hate doing that, you might think it totally unfair but it might be the best way out of a difficult situation.
If you don''t then knowing rural horse communities it will be round the neighbourhood like a dose of salts that you have sold a horse with problems and you are now taking her to court over it. Mud sticks :)
 
Your reputation is everything, as many have said, just arrange to take the horse back and give a full refund. Inconvenient and annoying and quite possibly unfair on you as the seller..

But even if you did end up winning in a court of law, which I very much doubt, you will find all the fall out and flack from the long drawn out haggling to and fro, your reputation will be in tatters thanks to the delightful social media 'experts' who will drag your name through almost every online Dodgy Dealer site. You can protest all you like to try and defend your reputation but unfortunately mud sticks on those sort of groups and that doubt will always follow you going forward.
 
paddy555 said:
This all seems to be about who is right and who is wrong. The question now is the best way to get out of it.

I'm not sure what this person wants but I would advise her that as she believes the horse has a problem then of course you will take it back and refund the purchase price. If you do that you may make a loss when you resell it however I guess some people will happily buy a promising young horse with rubs and will vet it to avoid future problems. If this happens then you sold a possible problem horse, took it back to rectify the situation and there should be no problems with your reputation.

If you argue the matter then it is going to cost if she continues. That cost may be more than the loss you may take if you just resell the horse. If she wins your reputation is shot and if you win then it will probably be the same but you will no doubt feel more satisfied.


There is also a bit more of a problem if you live close and locals will know you both.

If you were to pay any vet's bills they could be endless if by any chance sarcoids were found and had to have say the Liverpool cream and endless vet's visits.

I'm sure you may be right and people no doubt have a lot of sympathy for you but at the end of the day I would think the best thing for your business would be to ask for the horse to be returned and make the refund. You might hate doing that, you might think it totally unfair but it might be the best way out of a difficult situation.
If you don''t then knowing rural horse communities it will be round the neighbourhood like a dose of salts that you have sold a horse with problems and you are now taking her to court over it. Mud sticks :)
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Cross posted! Exactly what you said! See...we can agree sometimes @paddy555 😂🤣
 
I would ask for a copy of the vet records stating that the animal has sarcoids. If her vet has recorded the diagnosis, I feel the dealer has mis sold the horse and needs to take it back very quickly.

If the diagnosis is not sarcoids I would stand my ground. The comment of 'no lumps or bumps' actually means what as a legal description ? A splint is a lump/bump. An old scar could be an lump/bump. I've a horse at the minute with a bump/lump on its bottom, looks like a thorn as a bit pussy. A lump could be anything from a huge tumour or an insect sting.

At a legal level the meaning of lump/bump would be the key deciding factor to determine if the horse has been mis sold.

Two matching lumps under the armpits is more likely to be from the use a training contraption or a poor fitting saddle and girth too far forwards.

If the dealer has a spotless reputation they have nothing to worry about from this sale, and the purchaser would be hard pushed to get a ruling in her favour unless sarcoids are present. Sold as seen, she saw the lumps and they were discussed and recorded, she carried on with the sale. The lesson to be learnt is for the dealer to think about the wording of her adverts going forwards.
 
I'd offer to take the horse back and refund the buyer, find out what the marks are and re-advertise the horse accordingly. Social media can absolutely ruin a reputation, it's unfair but that's how things are these days, unfortunately.

If the buyer is trying it on, what's to say another problem with the horse won't appear in the near future? Cut your losses - it's annoying, but less stress in the long run.
 
This is the most overcomplicated saga ... are you actually a reputable dealer? You're not coming across like a reputable dealer on this thread. You even say you've been unfairly targetted on dodgy dealer pages. The attitude here (which may be completely different in person) comes across as very unprofessional. When I still coached, I would never ever have sent a client to a dealer if I was not confident that dealer would take the horse back as long as sound and healthy. Maybe the buyer felt pressured by you AND by her own friend into hoping the rubs were not sarcoids. Maybe she woke up clearer minded and decided she needed a vet opinion after all. That the horse is "trade price" means nothing if it is not a trade to trade sale. It's just a cheap horse from a dealer to a consumer.

More though, this all happened VERY QUICKY. We're not talking about a buyer who kept the horse for weeks on end. We ARE talking about a buyer who is kicking off at a local horse dealing business and will probably turn to social media and trash you if your response is not perfectly professional. Obviously you will not pay any vet bills. Why would you? That implies she wants to keep the horse. But allowing her to reject the horse is a necessary step here. If she refuses to reject the horse for no financial loss, then you've already won.
 
LarkriseFarmUK said:
I have messages confirming it was discussed at viewing prior to purchaser buying. Plus I had a groom present.
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Well that’s a bit better, if you have clear written evidence of the conversation about lumps, because if buyer otherwise does chase it to small claims, that advert and receipt aren’t helpful to your claim.
It’s not straightforward going to court, let alone winning a case, and meanwhile she has the hassle of keeping the horse in good order - pending whatever resolution.
However, from point of view of your reputation and your peace of mind, probably far easier to take the horse back and make sure you 100% cover everything discussed into a written format in all future sales.
Some horse people are just a PITA!
 
Spiritedly said:
As others have said i would offer to buy back and relist after a thorough check over and maybe vet confirmation as to what the lumps are.

If it goes to court your defence is based on an employee agreeing the lumps were discussed and the purchaser happy to go ahead, their case involves a written advertisement in which you state no lumps or bumps.

Its also worth noting your receipt stating 'no refunds or returns' is worthless as legally as a dealer any sales you make come under the Consumer Rights act.
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Its also worth noting your receipt stating 'no refunds or returns' is worthless as legally as a dealer any sales you make come under the Consumer Rights act.

Im amazed as a dealer that you did not know this.
 
In my simple mind, all I can understand is the buyer doesn't want to return, it has not been mentioned by the buyer, they just want money for something that they saw at the viewing and were happy to risk and still take the horse. Different situation if they had found them when at home. To me, the seller has done no wrong, except badly worded advert. But willing to be proven wrong.
 
nagblagger said:
To me, the seller has done no wrong, except badly worded advert.
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I more or less agree, but I am still left a bit surprised that a self confessed professional dealer could get it so wrong right from the advert through to the viewing and sale.

But my point is even if the seller is completely blameless. in the eyes of the usual grotesque social media dodgy dealer frenzy she will probably still end up with a damaged reputation and future searches will bring up all sorts that will make would be buyers avoid her 'just in case'.

For her/his own sake I would rip the plaster off, pick the horse up and refund ASAP without any more attention and fuss being drawn to this particular failed sale. It will be far the least financially damaging decision than getting into a pointless long drawn out argument over what is a very inexpensive horse anyway.
 
Quite,in English law you can’t sign your rights away.
The wiggle room here is in order to excise her rights under consumer law the buyer has to return the horse .
She had the right to do that atm .
But she can’t force OP to pay her vet bills,
Without a court case
 
Poing said:
My only comment is, how can a horse be in to be sold / bought to be sold on, and the rubs were “missed”? So no presale check done, or spotted during grooming / tacking up when dealer was riding it for assessment?
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It was sold from field.
 
OP may I ask if this is the 15.3 bay Welsh X that you are selling from the field as a project? If so he looks rather a nice sort and I would think you could probably put a few weeks work on him and he would fetch a decent price, especially if a vet is happy to vouch that the rough areas found are just rubs and nothing sinister. What I am saying is surely just take him back, refund the unhappy buyer. Do a bit of work with him and then readvertise with a more professional and direct advert, I am sure the profit margin would be well worth the trouble, if he is as described of course.

Sometimes a very quick sale and turnaround aren't the most profitable or less problematic way to sell a horse on, but I am sure with all your experience you probably know that as well as I do. :)
 
Well spotted, Mrs J.

I will observe that it is rather unusual for a dealer to sell a nice young horse of rideable age on as a project out of the field. Dealers usually buy in project horses at a low price, put the work in and sell them on going nicely under saddle. That’s how they put the profit on.

ETA In any case, your best bet in the scenario in your OP is to take the horse back and to refund the buyer.
 
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