Am Nearly Giving Up on Saddles and Riding Ever Again!!

[Baywonder]

The Symonds Oxford or Ray saddle is built for short coupled horses. I know of one that was recently fitted to a 14hh New Forest a 17.5" and it fitted perfectly. They also have a lovely wide gullet and good surface bearing area.

 

[Fransurrey]

I went for an Easytrek GP 2019 model for my cob. He's not a typical flat backed barrel, so cob saddles were out and he's still changing shape (just turned 6). It moulds to the back, has very good panels and gullet and is comfortable. When I first put it on I did have a heart attack at the bridging, but got on for 10 minutes and it was already starting to mould. A couple of short rides later and it's fab! It looks traditional too and has a standard girth. ETA it's quite short panelled, too. Coblet is very short coupled so this was an issue for me, too.

 

[sjp1]

The Symonds Oxford or Ray saddle is built for short coupled horses. I know of one that was recently fitted to a 14hh New Forest a 17.5" and it fitted perfectly. They also have a lovely wide gullet and good surface bearing area.

The Symonds I tried today had a fab gullet and wasn't that long compared to the panels on a lot of 17 inch seats. Thank you for that - shall investigate those two models

 

[sjp1]

I went for an Easytrek GP 2019 model for my cob. He's not a typical flat backed barrel, so cob saddles were out and he's still changing shape (just turned 6). It moulds to the back, has very good panels and gullet and is comfortable. When I first put it on I did have a heart attack at the bridging, but got on for 10 minutes and it was already starting to mould. A couple of short rides later and it's fab! It looks traditional too and has a standard girth. ETA it's quite short panelled, too. Coblet is very short coupled so this was an issue for me, too.

Thats really interesting. They are a very good price and look absolutely ideal - I think the earlier models had issues with pressure points from stirrups and that put me off. They seem on paper to be the perfect treeless - be fab if you could keep us updated as they seem to have updated the saddles year on year to sort all issues.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Have you had a look at a WOW?

You can have shorter panels with a bigger seat, the adjust all over.

I've got one on my appy and he tells you straight away if he isn't happy and he loves his.

It's the half panels that make the difference I think.

I had a wintec wide on him for the last five years and that's been a nice saddle. We are just at a point now I wanted a dressage saddle and his shoulders were out growing the wides.

The elephant is in a AH saddle and he likes that.

 

[FinkleyAlex]

I have a horse who is irish cob x shire on one half and hackney on the other. He came to me in a lot of pain, unable to be touched or groomed without biting because he was in so much pain. Ridden in a too narrow and too long a saddle with a heavy rider. Four sessions over six months with an amazing back lady, he can now be touched and groomed happily. He had to be sedated to get shoes off - happily I can trim his fronts now and he seems pretty happy shoeless. Saddle fitting however is a whole other issue. He has a space of 17 inches to fit a saddle to. Most 17 inch seat saddles have panels that measure 20 plus inches. He isn't mutton withered, he has a wither, but a wide back. He would be on the wider side of wide, but not massive. Am not looking to get a 1300 quid saddle for him at the moment as he is as fat as a whale - pain has gone - no riding BECAUSE I CANT FIND A SADDLE THAT FITS HIM!! He has a bit of a curve on his back - but that could because he hasn't been worked for months. Anyone, any ideas? Would look at treeless - but am not keen on short girths and dressage straps. Once he has lots weight and his back is where it should be I would look at a new saddle but am not happy to spend 1300 quid on a saddle that might fit him for a nano second until he is the weight and shape he should be. And saddler makers are very retiscent about tree shapes and panels that each type of saddle is made on which makes it even tricker. If anyone has any great ideas, please let me know!!

OP my horse is a really similar shape to this - also 17 inches, short backed, barrel bellied, flat back, with a wither, albeit on the wide side. The nemesis of any saddler. I went through a dozen saddlers and none could find anything that would fit him. In the end I had to take him to a huge local saddlery (Ingatestone) and bought a brand new Albion K2 GP - I'm not joking, out of the whole store it was the only saddle that fitted him.

If your horse isn't in shape right now I would be lunging 3 x a week in a pessoa, or riding bareback for now (if his back is up for it, and he lets you), until he's in a decent shape.

 

[Baywonder]

Just a thought OP - why not give Ray Symonds a call directly and have a chat to him? He would be able to explain / suggest what would be best for you.

 

[Otherwise]

Total contact saddle is another out of the box option.

 

[Baywonder]

I've just had a look on Fylde Saddlery's website, and they have ex-demo Ray saddles for £875 😁

 

[pansymouse]

Pansymouse - I had an outreach fitter for Kay Humphries come who was a lovely lady and I had a Swain&Humphries Holistic saddle that was altered by Kay by template for him. The gullet is just way too narrow and the saddle too long. The outreach lovely lady didn't mention he had a short back and to be honest I didn't question it and thought all was fine and dandy! The horse (who was ridden by a rider FAR heavier than me previously and in a Stubben saddle which was WAY narrower) protested much more about the H&S saddle than he ever did about the Stubben. To the point when having the saddle on he was so bunched up he was going to explode. Having said that another H&S suited my appy well. As ever it is horses for courses, So not a good outcome for this lad on that basis. I must also say that I have had extensive work done on him with an osteo - he was so sore when he came to me (just on trial as I wasn't going to keep him but really liked older lady who owned him who was having a knee operation and he was quirky and no-one wanted him because he couldn't be touched, groomed etc.), of course once I had back lady out and after the first treatment he could be touched - still worried he is going to be beaten up, but its all coming right - I couldn't bear to send him back! I think once he was not in pain everywhere he was able to point out what did hurt.

I would only ever recommend Kay herself - I've seen her fix so many horses who have been damaged by ill fitting saddles.

 

[ycbm]

You would have to go second hand for your budget, but you can fit a 17 inch panel to a larger seat on a WOW, and the adjustability of the air and gullet plates should mean you'll never have to swap the saddle as he changes shape. If you fit in a 17 inch seat yourself, you could go 16 inch with the panels.

They are heavy, and the occasional horse doesn't like the air, but horses love the freedom in the shoulders they get from the flexibity in them, and I've saved a mint on saddle changes ever since I started using them.


.

 

[Leo Walker]

I would only ever recommend Kay herself - I've seen her fix so many horses who have been damaged by ill fitting saddles.

It was Kay that came out and fitted the saddle that didnt fit and then went on to cause massive amounts of trouble when the saddle was sold on by saying it wasnt one of her saddles, even though she supplied and fitted it as one of hers. She did exactly the same to another person I know, it caused massive amounts of trouble.

 

[sbloom]

I was only thinking today that the internet has a lot to be blamed for!! I would pay for a new saddle if I thought it was going to be right for at least a couple of years. He has 17 inches of space for a saddle to fit. They always say fit the tree to bone and flock to the rest. I really wish there was more information about trees - it all seems to be smoke and mirrors and there is hardly any information at all on trees for horses - apart from the generic remarks about - great for flat backed horses, or ideal for sports horses - no-one brings a tree along and plonks it on the horses back so that you can see what tree you are looking at - by the time gussets for shoulders and gussets at the rear and flocking is done - who knows what kind of tree it is on.

His back is good actually - we are undoing the hideous damage done by wrong fitting saddles - he does have some damage done by ill fitting saddles behind his shoulders but no-where near as bad as a lot I have seen. I would imagine I could shim with pads for that?

Bare trees - it's so subtle that it's really hard to talk about, even for fitters we often need to see how the saddle built on the tree works. Some people swear by bare tree fittings, and some fitters do use them, but unless the tree is pretty much exactly the right width, and ideally length, then it's honestly not that helpful. We DO talk about trees, I talk about rails, pommel width, seat width, flatness, and in fact will be blogging in the next two weeks on the front to back curve, that's just ONE aspect and that is taking me two LONG posts. You see the issue? A little knowledge can be a problem, so honestly it's best to find a fitter you trust, easier said than done I know.
You can indeed shim for damage, shims at the front aren't needed as often as shims for the back, because the front has so much more scope for lifting or lowering that extra helps isn't often needed. If you know what to look for then they can be useful as you can remove them as the horse widens but honestly, very few customers are able to spot when it might be time so it is a risk.

Have you tried the Thorowgood compact? The Wintec Lite isn't very long either and you can have it in wide for extra wide horses. If you are a size 10/12 you might get away with a 17".
How wide is he? Have you tried measuring with a gullet jauge?

The trees are often an issue, they're just not as flat as so many short backs require. And the shape of the seat means there's not much room for the rider, a flatter trees saddle in a smaller size often offers as much if not more room, and more stability for the horse.

do you mean the XXW (silver) or XW (white)? My friend's full friesian has the XW (white) in Wintec, I am surprised a XXW is too narrow. Those are the extra wide gullets for Wintec wide saddles:
https://www.wintec-saddles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/4Gullets_wide.jpg

It's often not the width ie the angle that is the issue, the TG XXW and the Wintec lilac headplates ARE wide, but they're narrow in the head, the TG is worse, so that means they perch and don't wrap around the horse. The rest of the tree and panel shape doesn't help.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

We have a sway backed hackney cross and she was well fitted with a Kent and masters general purpose...I can’t recall the name of the model. We had a fitter out with a transit full of saddles new and second hand so persevere as there will be something for you.

 

[sjp1]

Have you had a look at a WOW?

You can have shorter panels with a bigger seat, the adjust all over.

I've got one on my appy and he tells you straight away if he isn't happy and he loves his.

It's the half panels that make the difference I think.

I had a wintec wide on him for the last five years and that's been a nice saddle. We are just at a point now I wanted a dressage saddle and his shoulders were out growing the wides.

The elephant is in a AH saddle and he likes that.

I haven't looked at WOW - only because they seem complicated and I know nothing about them and we are in the darkest depths of Devon so would have no fitters down here at all!! And I don't think they are a DIY saddle!! But the concept looks brilliant if I understood more about them!

 

[sjp1]

OP my horse is a really similar shape to this - also 17 inches, short backed, barrel bellied, flat back, with a wither, albeit on the wide side. The nemesis of any saddler. I went through a dozen saddlers and none could find anything that would fit him. In the end I had to take him to a huge local saddlery (Ingatestone) and bought a brand new Albion K2 GP - I'm not joking, out of the whole store it was the only saddle that fitted him.

If your horse isn't in shape right now I would be lunging 3 x a week in a pessoa, or riding bareback for now (if his back is up for it, and he lets you), until he's in a decent shape.

Sadly he came to me very cheapy because he is very nervy about all sorts of things - rider movement being one of them!! We are working on this and he is becoming amazingly quiet about all sorts of things. My appy I got on bareback all the time when we were rehabbing his hooves - this lad - we will get there but don't fancy being decked at the mo!! I will have a look at the Albion K2's - short and wide panelled saddles are not easy to come by!

 

[sjp1]

Total contact saddle is another out of the box option.

Thats another to look at - thank you - shall get googling!!

 

[sjp1]

Just a thought OP - why not give Ray Symonds a call directly and have a chat to him? He would be able to explain / suggest what would be best for you.

Thats a good idea - I will do that

 

[sjp1]

do you mean the XXW (silver) or XW (white)? My friend's full friesian has the XW (white) in Wintec, I am surprised a XXW is too narrow. Those are the extra wide gullets for Wintec wide saddles:
https://www.wintec-saddles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/4Gullets_wide.jpg

I think it was the XW - white. But the panels just seemed perched up on him really - I am no saddle fitter but it just wasn't right. The front gullet would have been OK but the panels were too narrow in my limited experience opinion and I suspect when he did any turns those panels would have sat right on his spine. The saddle perched rather than sat around him if that makes any sense?

 

[sjp1]

Bare trees - it's so subtle that it's really hard to talk about, even for fitters we often need to see how the saddle built on the tree works. Some people swear by bare tree fittings, and some fitters do use them, but unless the tree is pretty much exactly the right width, and ideally length, then it's honestly not that helpful. We DO talk about trees, I talk about rails, pommel width, seat width, flatness, and in fact will be blogging in the next two weeks on the front to back curve, that's just ONE aspect and that is taking me two LONG posts. You see the issue? A little knowledge can be a problem, so honestly it's best to find a fitter you trust, easier said than done I know.
You can indeed shim for damage, shims at the front aren't needed as often as shims for the back, because the front has so much more scope for lifting or lowering that extra helps isn't often needed. If you know what to look for then they can be useful as you can remove them as the horse widens but honestly, very few customers are able to spot when it might be time so it is a risk.



The trees are often an issue, they're just not as flat as so many short backs require. And the shape of the seat means there's not much room for the rider, a flatter trees saddle in a smaller size often offers as much if not more room, and more stability for the horse.



It's often not the width ie the angle that is the issue, the TG XXW and the Wintec lilac headplates ARE wide, but they're narrow in the head, the TG is worse, so that means they perch and don't wrap around the horse. The rest of the tree and panel shape doesn't help.

I do see the issue! My father ranched in Venezuela when I was born and they used Mclellan saddles - on every horse. No horse was shod, every horse worked three days a week - and worked - roping cattle, and driving cattle, all day - not plodding around the block!! They had the other days of the week off - but he swore by Mclellan's - wide gullet which was open and good thick blankets underneath. He is 83 now and cannot understand why when I talk to him about my saddle fitting woes why saddling has taken such a restrospective turn for the worse - and I have to agree - he was in his 20's when he was in Venezuela!! Personally - I think most of the problem with modern saddles has occured because people want to sit on a sofa rather than a saddle - therefore saddle makers have pandered to the rider - who has the money - rather than the horse - who has the weight. And then the rider spends hundreds of pounds fixing the problem because they don't really understand what it is they are looking for in the first place. And I lump myself in with that - although my horses issue wasn't caused by me - the saddle the previous owner used 'sat level front to back' and I could see it did and it had the requisite number of fingers under the pommel. The problem was it was so narrow it was always going to! No wonder that horse couldn't be stroked or groomed and shrank to the back to the stable every time the saddle was produced! A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, but it can also be a good thing - you start to listen to what the horse thinks rather than the fitter - and every fitter has a different take on it. For me - and I am not a fitter - but I have found the Schleese 9 points of saddle fitting very interesting and very informative. The TG no matter what headplate was in it was just wrong - and I agree - the angles weren't right for him - I am sure there are a lot they are right for - just not this lad!

Finding a saddle fitter that is all about the horse and not about the sales of new saddles is very difficult in this day and age.

Just wondering why bare trees aren't helpful - surely length and width is key as is angle and curve of the back and the right amount of width around the wither?

 

[sjp1]

We have a sway backed hackney cross and she was well fitted with a Kent and masters general purpose...I can’t recall the name of the model. We had a fitter out with a transit full of saddles new and second hand so persevere as there will be something for you.

My lad is not sway backed particularly - however was ridden with a Stubben saddle with a very heavy rider prior to me buying him. Therefore he has muscle wastage. Local saddler very kindly leant me the T8 and the Kent & Masters to try - both the cob tree - they perched on him and had completely the wrong angles for his shape. Those dips will come up with a saddle that allows it - its just finding that saddle!! And my lad is probably thicker boned and backed than your hackney cross as he has irish cob ans shire mixed in there!!

 

[MrsNorris]

I have a solutions smart dressage on my hard to fit, very wide short backed cob and it is fantastic. The gullet does look a bit narrow but it spreads a bit when you sit on it and hasn’t been an issue at all. It’s the most stable, comfortable saddle I’ve ever had, and after having several treed saddles fitted by a reputable saddler which caused some quite spectacular bucking, it has been the best thing I ever did. He goes so well in it, never even so much as humped never mind bucked, we’re both very happy.
It’s a size 3 and I’m 5’6” and 9.5st, so technically I should be in a 4, but the 3 fits us both fine, it was fitted by a solutions fitter. Hope that’s of some help, good luck in your search.

 

[sbloom]

Just wondering why bare trees aren't helpful - surely length and width is key as is angle and curve of the back and the right amount of width around the wither?

Because if they're too narrow especially you're then trying to judge if the rails would be perfect if you widened the saddle, and vice versa if too wide. As I said, they need to be the right width to be able to assess much at all, and I'm sure no saddle fitter carries bare trees in maybe 3-4 seat lengths and 3-4 widths, that's up to 16 trees just for one model.

 

[Palindrome]

if you prefer to have the tree fitted and then a thick wool blanket underneath, go for a western saddle. They suit wide types and are what you describe.
I quite like my synthetic English saddle, weighing just 9lbs, but it does suit my boy who is an average sized medium wither type.