Amateur rider doing dressage....

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I'm seeking some independent views, as I have a fixed idea in my head and my friends are ALL telling me that I'm wrong :D Yes, that absolutely should tell me something but I am pig headed....!!!

Scenario is an amateur rider who has been riding for about 25 years, always as a leisure activity. Horse came to me on loan in May 2016 - he had just turned 6 at that time, and had done very, very little with his owner.

I've had very regular lessons on him since I've had him - originally with one trainer (a FBHS) who unfortunately failed to notice the horse's major crookedness then I swapped to another trainer in April this year.

At the moment we are competing in walk and trot tests and Prelim (unaffiliated) - horse still has problems with his canter due to his crookedness, right canter is getting there but left canter is rather hit and miss!

We competed yesterday and got 63% in the walk and trot (4th) and 60% in the Prelim (4th again!). Now I think that I should be doing MUCH better in walk & trot tests by now, but I am being told that I should be pleased with where I am! Only 1.5% separated the top 4 in that test.

Any thoughts on where you would expect to be after this much time & training? I'm talking weekly lessons, and I fully realise that dressage judging is subjective :)
 
It takes as long as it takes to progress and is dependent on so many different factors.

Generally, if you put a professional on a raw young horse they will progress it quicker than any amateur for all sorts of reasons.

If you are still seeing progress, then great. If things have plateaued, then maybe time for a rethink. You've had the horse for coming up 18 months, so if still struggling with crookedness I would be looking for some underlying physical cause and addressing that. Crookedness will cause muscular asymmetry which needs addressing in order to make the job of the horse easier. Physio time?

Another option would be to send the horse to a pro for a bit of boot camp to get the desired way of going/straightness established and to make the horse easier for your good self. Being in my sixties I have a number of crash test dummies I use if I get a new youngster that is a bit of a thug; no shame in getting help!

Good luck.
 
I'm with you on this one. I would be expecting more and would be looking at work regime and trainers.
It seems to be a 21st century problem that everyone is expected to say someone is doing brilliantly regardless of the facts.
That said, moving a horse along fairly quickly can involve very intensive work for both horse and rider.
Don't know if you followed my progress with Spring but I started riding him in March (2015) at which point he couldn't canter a 30m circle without breaking and wobbled all over the place in trot, crooked, variable contact etc.
By end of april we had qualified for BD regionals at prelim going on to gain a top 10 placing.
However, I was schooling 5 times a week come rain shine and 30 degree temps. Schooling sessions were often followed by a hack to get him to stretch, relax and just build muscle. I used two trainers, one a list 3 judge, the other a list 1 judge. After a couple of months I dropped the list 1 as the list 3 was a much better instructor.
All that said, I think one of the main reasons we achieved what we did is that I'm never satisfied with my performance and always looking to improve from test to test. I want to win, end of. Plus riding for an owner tends to make you want to perform to keep the ride.
So yesterday, did you go out to win and believe that you could or were you happy with 4th? Belief is VERY important in all horse comps.
 
It is hard to make comments on the results of one competition, the judge was not overly generous with their marks if the winner of one was only 1.5% higher, you need to look at the bigger picture of how much progress has been made, or not, how you felt the tests went and the standard of the others there on the day.

If your horse is still crooked that will get picked up even at Intro level, other things to consider are do you ride for every mark, is the test accurate, does your trainer work on test riding in lessons, I find I can normally improve someones scores by simply looking at how they ride in a test situation and if I am there can frequently improve the marks for the second test just by making a few comments, not that competing is the only objective but it does help boost confidence if a rider can feel they are going in the right direction in training and that is showing in their improving scores.

I would be slightly concerned that left canter is hit and miss after months of work as it is something that should be fairly easy to fix by getting him really straight unless there is an underlying issue with either the horse or the rider.
 
Sorry should have clarified about crookedness - absolutely I am getting him treated for it, he has had several physio treatments, a chiropractor treatment and is due for his next physio session. I'm also having chiropractor treatment to ensure I am not causing the problem!
 
I never pay attention to placings in dressage - you can win classes in a weak team of competitors with a bad test, and likewise you can do the best test you have ever done and be beaten.

It's much better to think of dressage as a long term education of your horse and the test as a potential outing to test where you are at in your training.

I don't care where I come in a test, I'm not even massively bothered by the percentages (unless there's a pattern in a run of them which would show im struggling at a level). I only care about the comments, and how they reflect on the schooling struggles i have. For example, with your horse, even if I did an awful test with low marks, if I got a compliment on the horse being straight i'd be delighted.

If you scan over all your tests you will see a pattern of where you weaknesses are. If you go writing for a judge it can sometimes to be clearer then to see what they mean. I've written for judges and people have done very poor tests with no rhytmn or balance and then i've heard them later moaning about the marks saying the judge was unfair and they'd done a great test. Writing for the judges is really eye opening!

Walk trot test's can also be arder at times that other tests at prelim level i think - the movements are much longer and there are less of them, so if you mess up a move it's a bigger chunk of your marks. And because the moves go on much longer it's easier to spot weaknesses in paces, balance and rhythmn. And people lose a massive amount of marks on accuracy in them.
 
Don't neglect your own education while progressing your horse's. Have you done / do you do a lot of work on your seat and way of riding? I've been through long phases of having a weekly lunge lesson on an instructor's horse to work on my own position and learn to use my seat better. Schoolmaster lessons are then invaluable once you have your seat to learn about a good contact and connection from the hind end to the bit. I wish I had the time to do more at the moment, a friend is between horses currently and is having two lessons a week at Talland - it's doing wonders for her riding and her confidence and I'm quite jealous!
 
"It doesn't matter how quickly you make progress, the most important thing is that you are making progress"

Unless there is obviously something going very wrong (bad saddle/physical issue/you're falling off every time you ride), I wouldn't worry overly about the rate of your progress. You're having lessons often, so you know you're trying your best to improve and that's the main thing.

For me, what I've found is that I make a lot of progress-as you seem to have done when you found a new instructor-then I have a stint where I feel as though I have hit a plateau and don't seem to be going anywhere quickly. The only way to pass that is by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone a little, to create a new level of comfort zone, which you will eventually have to push yourself out of again!

If you're really concerned, talk to your instructor about it and be honest with them. I really appreciate honesty from the people I teach regularly, as it helps to create more of a plan.

If all else fails just remember: Slow progress is better than no progress.

I'm sure it'll all be super xx
 
Difficult to say for sure without knowing you, how you ride, the horse etc.
So I can only tell you how I would feel as an amateur rider, with a focus on dressage, who needs regular help on the ground - which may not be comparable with your position.

I would not expect to be stuck on low 60's in WT/prelim after months of training. I would be very disappointed and be questioning why. Is the training not good enough? Do I need to pull my riding apart? Is there something more sinister going on with the horse to contribute to this crookedness/performance?
 
Do you feel he is going better and it is not reflected in the marks or are you feeling that he isn't improving?

Am I right in remembering that he is a bit downhill so might be working against his conformation?
 
This is one of those things where it's almost impossible to judge without seeing the horse, I think. It could be, as PM says, that you're not progressing because of a lack of commitment, belief or whatever. But equally, your horse could be less naturally able, or less naturally desirable to dressage judges, or more challenged in some fashion during his recovery from crookedness to straightness (most horses are crooked - it's a question of why, and how far, and whether or not it is improved with correct straightening work - if it doesn't, there may well be an underlying issue). The %s from one dressage outing aren't hugely enlightening either - there are always anomalous judges, and bad days. I'd look at the spread of the comments over all your tests and see if they're gradually improving, and I'd look to get insight from others about his work - either trying new trainers / clinics / videoing yourself etc - and trying to establish how things are going that way.
 
Post a video of you and your horse schooling walk trot canter, and your own views of the way of going and what is being worked on. I am sure we can give some constructive criticism and views on what might be the current rate limiting issues.
 
Thank you for some very very interesting input, your thoughts are much appreciated.

I must admit I read IHW's post and thought 'yep that is EXACTLY' how I feel', but then I recognised that I was falling into that old forum trap of picking out the person who agrees with you and ignoring the rest!

I am aware of the problem where an inexperienced rider is trying to educate an inexperienced horse, so I've asked my trainer to ride him regularly now so he can hopefully better understand what I am trying to say. I'll also think about schoolmaster lessons, although money does not permit this right at the moment :(

I'm going to go back and review my test sheets for themes, I've already booked some arena hire/test riding times with my trainer, and I'll look at the thread again tonight to see if there are any other actions I need to pick up!
 
The other point is for most of us amateurs, what we own and master schooling at home is often much better, than what we can produce in a competition can be quite different. So the ability drops in test environment.

So if are comfortably schooling novice work at home, you'd maybe be happy competing prelim etc.
 
PaddyMonty said:
That said, moving a horse along fairly quickly can involve very intensive work for both horse and rider.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to pop in and say this ^^^ is very true and probably a bit relevant here.

also... (please read this in the friendly manner it is intended :p )
Until recently you were looking at an eventing career for Jensen, so that is 3 disciplines and a lot of additional fitness work to fit in, which means that it's harder to progress the flatwork as quickly because you need to do jumping and hacking regularly ;) Plus you've had a bit of a wobble yourself where you stopped enjoying your riding and had decided to back off for a while until you found the pleasure in it. Additionally, you've uncovered a longstanding wonkiness in your horse which has needed to be rehabbed and as an ongoing thing it continues to affect his work.

Plus.. you have a life outside the horse, which means commitments of other kinds which compete for riding time - dogs and running would be the things that I see you post about here and on FB, which both bring other kinds of enjoyment.

Those 4 things will have a cumulative effect and it's important to acknowledge them when assessing progress ;)

It's not a value judgement, you've got to live your life and do the stuff you enjoy... people always say "it's supposed to be fun!" about riding horses and they are right.... in so far as your hobby should not feel like drudgery. *But* if you want to perform at a high level, there comes a point where other things get sacrificed, it's inevitable... and making speedy progress takes hours of consistent work each week IME ;) riding my horses is at the top of my list of priorities which means I am disappointed to find that I can't do other activities that I'd like to.. other people are different and let their riding take the back burner now and then to prioritise other things. Try to stop thinking about what you ought to do, and think about what you truly deeply WANT to do.

Just chucking that in, lots of other good relevant comments above! ;)
 
Its a tricky one, as there are so many factors to consider, I totally agree with everything MP has said. Also different horses progress at very different rates even with the same experienced rider, so its very hard to assess if your horse would progress significantly faster with an other rider, or not, having your trainer ride is a good idea, as it will give you lots more information.

I see this so often when I teach, I identify issues, discuss how to correct them, work on it in the lesson so horse and rider are clear on what to do, give the rider homework etc, and over the course of a month one rider has transformed things, and another one has made a very small amount of progress. I do totally agree with who ever said as long as your making progress and not stagnating its good, this is so true, but you can also ask if its possible to be making more progress than you currently are.

Its not just about how often you school, but how effectively you school, for example you say your horse is crooked, assuming that there is no fundamental underlying medical issue, then the crookedness can be corrected, all horses are crooked to varying degrees. I would ask if you are aware of and trying to correct the crookedness literally every moment you are on the horse? If you ride a bad transition, do you say it wasnt too bad and let it go, or do you correct it? To make rapid progress these are the sort of questions you need to asking yourself when you ride, rapid progress is very hard work, both physically and mentally, and requires huge focus and commitment from the rider, and a horse whose nature will alllow that level of rideability.

If this is not something you do, its ok, your allowed to progress at your pace, in your own level of focus etc, but then you have to accept the progress may be less rapid than you would ideally like, its a metal compromise you have to make. Its not your job, its what you do for pleasure, so do what makes you happy, and enjoy your partnership with your horse.
 
I could have written this a year ago, just without your 25 years of riding behind me. I was 'stuck' on low 60's tests and I knew the problem, all the judges knew the probelm and my trainer did, just could not get anywhere with it. Horse very lazy off the leg, no impulsion, lacking forward...thats all i got and rightfully so.

Well horse broke, odds only 60% hacking sound at the beginning. Horse excelled and mended himself so that even on xrays you would never know there was a problem now. :)

It was the kick up the backside I actually needed to not 'settle' and to actually really start applying myself. I needed help so I shopped around trainers until I found someone who wont settle for horses half arsed efforts either. In 5 lessons (and a lot of homework and some text support) she has got me nearly 10% improvement at prelim. I am now eyeing up my first ever novice test for next month.

I've not had bad instructors (more than once!) and they did all improve him, but as a collective entity the drive to get the last bit wasnt there, so we settled. Now I don't and I have the right person to help. She tells me when its rubbish, she tells me the theory behind her teaching, she chucked out a few exerises that just didnt work, she has ridden him once so far to get a feel and came back with even more ideas.

I am now loving it again. Its not easy and I am no great rider, but my last 2 tests have had something about a lovely partnership and some 8's in the scores. I am doing it as finally its seeming like its fun for both of us and I love learning!!

This is all a bit rambling, but if I can I am sure you can. My advice, if you feel stuck see if there is someone else who can throw in a new idea, sometimes it can be something tiny and then the lightbulb turns on. Good luck with getting where you want, but it needs to be a fun journey I think. :)
 
wingedhorse said:
The other point is for most of us amateurs, what we own and master schooling at home is often much better, than what we can produce in a competition can be quite different. So the ability drops in test environment.

So if are comfortably schooling novice work at home, you'd maybe be happy competing prelim etc.
Click to expand...

this is so true I used to just forget how to ride at a show and be really angry at myself for letting my horse down, but this year I have just done low level stuff and have looked at each outing as being a training experience and I have actually been surprised with the results.

I would keep your schooling up op the canter can take time but try not to be disheartened if you don't get the result you wanted just think of it as an experience for both of you, but just go and do whatever you want to do and enjoy yourself it's so worth just having a go.
 
Oh bless you OP, you really do sound like you are ricocheting about mentally when it comes to the horse at the moment.

So you want to focus on dressage rather than eventing with him now? That does require a time to refocus your brain and identify where your weaknesses lie in terms of pure dressage....and you haven't had much time, which is probably why those around you are saying it's all fine and dandy. And you do have to keep firmly in your mind that, particularly at lower end dressage, what the judge sees on the day is not by any means the whole picture in terms of level and progression etc. So you really can't take score too much to heart, and generally that is fairly easy to do if you know why you are scoring what you're scoring and how you're going to improve it.

Do you know why you're not scoring very highly? You say his canter isn't very good - in what way? Is it the transition is bad and therefore the canter is a bit bleurgh? Does he struggle to bend in canter? Is he not properly through?(these questions are rhetorical, just examples of what I might be asking myself if I felt that canter was a weakness).

MP started a thread a while back about whether amateurs over complicate things for ourselves, and I think definitely we can all benefit from being a little more business like about the whole process from time to time. Hopefully this post doesn't come across as a little brisk - it's not meant that way, it's not at all uncommon to feel the way you do right now :)
 
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