American School Shooting

Fools Motto

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Those poor children. Just Why??
A whole classroom is still missing, while 27 dead inc 18 poor little innocent ones..

Why are guns such a big thing in America? Surely they should be banned now??
 

Fantasy_World

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I have just seen this on the news and it has deeply saddened me :(
Adults I can understand, I can understand a grievance or issue that caused someone to open fire and tip over the edge.
Children though, I simply cannot get my head around at all.
Why the kiddies, why take away all those innocent little lives :(
 

PolarSkye

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The right to bear arms is written into the American Constitution . . . not saying I agree with it (b/c I don't), just telling you how it is. It originated from the rights of individual states to raise a militia before the US civil war and before the US really was united . . . and it's been contentious ever since. It's hard to convey how deep rooted the right to bear arms is in the US . . . it's just part of life. Police officers and security guards alike are armed . . . and there is a large proportion of the population who feels they should have the right to defend themselves against the criminal element by arming themselves . . . it's a sick, cyclical, self-fulfilling prophesy. I will arm myself so that you can't shoot me . . . I will arm myself with a bigger, more powerful gun so that I CAN shoot you. Sigh.

P
 
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Hearing (the normally aloof) Obama speak tonight one would hope that the gun laws in the USA will be reviewed. Im not entirely sure that this will be the case.

May the families be comforted by the outpouring of grief and love surrounding them. As the lives of their kin have been wasted, I hope they can find peace. xx
 

Nollaig Shona

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R.I.P. The poor souls


The right to bear arms is written into the American Constitution . . . not saying I agree with it (b/c I don't), just telling you how it is. It originated from the rights of individual states to raise a militia before the US civil war and before the US really was united . . . and it's been contentious ever since. It's hard to convey how deep rooted the right to bear arms is in the US . . . it's just part of life. Police officers and security guards alike are armed . . . and there is a large proportion of the population who feels they should have the right to defend themselves against the criminal element by arming themselves . . . it's a sick, cyclical, self-fulfilling prophesy. I will arm myself so that you can't shoot me . . . I will arm myself with a bigger, more powerful gun so that I CAN shoot you. Sigh.
It's quite frightening how voraciously Americans are defending their right to bear arms after this horrific incident, some are claiming it was the shooter who was evil, not the guns and that he could have done just as much using knives or baseball bats. I hope they are attempting to be ironic or sarcastic.

IF gun control laws are brought in, what at the pro-gun lobby going to do, emigrate?
 

winslow

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It is a horrendous situation, reports today say he may have been mentally ill. He shot his mother, took her guns (which she legally obtained) and for some reason we may never know shot 20 children (5-10yrs) and 6 adults before turning the gun on himself.
We have guns in our house, if it became illegal to own fine we would turn them in. But what about the type of people that do this do you think they would?
This is truly awful situation that should not have happened and I feel for the families involved.
 

Luci07

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If you would like a greater insight, go and read Piers Morgan on twitter. Whatever you think about him he is making a lot of noise in the US about gun laws and yes I agree, people there seem to be diametrically opposed. Various awful stats coming out, such as 88 out of every 100 people own a gun in the US.

Yes the killer apparently had a mental disability. Yet his mother ( whom he murdered) had taken him for shooting lessons. He used her 5 licensed guns to murder the children. I think the attempted focus on his mental state is somewhat misleading as this event is very sadly becoming a regular occurrence now.

and RIP to the brave 27 year old school teacher, Victoria Soto who hid her entire class and told the gunman they had gone to the gym. He murdered her as well. RIP to all those who lost their lives and condolences to the families of those who have lost loved ones, and to the families of the survivors whose children lost their childhood innocence in one savage afternoon and will be living with the aftermath for the rest of their lives.
 
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starryeyed

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What a tragedy :( Rest in peace to those brave, brave teachers and those poor children with their whole lives ahead of them. My heart goes out to everyone affected. It's just awful.
 

GTs

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All of this took place just 2 hours from where I live. It is incredibly sad and I do not think any of us can get our minds around the events. Many people outside the US do not understand our gun laws or previous gun control measures put in place. We are not opposed to creating laws that save needless loss of life, however we don't believe you can legislative out crazy. If it wasn't guns, would it have been a bomb? Arson? Or?
 

Luci07

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What previous controls? Genuine question? The son used his mothers 5 legal weapons to murder. He had legal training. It could well be argued that knives, arson etc could " possibly" cause fewer deaths just due to timescales. Bombs are far harder to get hold of, particularly with the constant vigileance over terrorisim. The US has a scary statistic of owning between 30-35% percent of the worlds handguns for 5% of the population with an estimated 88 out of 100 people on average owning a gun. It is almost becoming an expected news item now...another gun massacre. "Can't legislate against crazy" no you can't, but you can make it a lot harder to give them the weapons.

I don't know all the answers, I do understand it is a very emotive area and I was quite amazed when I actually started to look into this ( oh boy do emotions run high on this ). I get quite peed off when I have American friends attempting to give me a history lesson over the rights and wrongs of the dreadful English over the years and am most certainly not attempting to push my own views onto anyone.

But, as an outsider, how can a country which sets itself up as a senior statesman have such laws still in place?

I would very much like to hear your perspective and views to give me a better understanding.
 
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angrovestud

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So horrific I would like to see a link between medical records and the issue of a gun licence, both here and the US anyone with a known problem of either dependance on any meds illegal or other wise and alchol as well should never be issued with a gun licence
 

GTs

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Previous controls like required classes, waiting periods for guns and background checks. My wife is a concealed weapons carrier - it's no easy task to get one. You can state bombs are harder to get ahold off, but that's not true. You can buy propane at any gas station, and look at Oklahoma City bombing. It isn't hard and can be devistating.

I want my country to be safe I just don't think it will be with stricter gun laws! Look at the massacre in Sweden......
 

Mince Pie

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Norway.


The difference being is how many "person shoots up school/tech/cinema" incidents do you hear about from the US compared to UK or Europe...?
 

quirky

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I want my country to be safe I just don't think it will be with stricter gun laws! Look at the massacre in Sweden......
They had a table of the worst classroom killings by gun in the paper yesterday, 50% of them were in America. I think that speaks volumes.
Utoya (Norway) wasn't one of them as they weren't in a school.

I am incredulous that people can go round arming themselves legally. I can't see any positives in it at all and am thankful that the UK's gun laws were tightened up after the Dunblane tragedy.
 

Alec Swan

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As this truly hideous and irrational event is still fresh in our minds, reaching rational and workable answers may not be possible.

My OH tried to post a quote from the wonderful, and angry and saddened Morgan Freeman, who had what may have been a potential answer as to the apparently unfathomable question "Why". The post wouldn't leave her ipod and arrive with me!!

The gist of his argument was this;

The American media (he mentioned Fox News, but there were others, and his comments would apply equally to the UK), who in clamouring for viewing figures always trip over themselves, and each other, in an effort to release what would seem to be, the most solicitous news programmes, and they are in fact, fostering those who wish to leave this life in a blaze of glory, and I'm tempted to agree with him.

Consider this, we all know the name of the murderer, but do we know the names of any of his victims? Very few of us do, I suspect. All that we're doing with this coverage is prepping the next mass killer.

To support his argument, the bulk of those who commit these atrocities, end up topping themselves, and as there seems to be little thought given to escape, their heightened sense of self worth is being, or would be, bolstered by press coverage.

I watched Obama last night, and he seemed genuinely distressed as are the rest of mankind. His immediate reaction, understandably, was that there needs to be tighter control of firearms licensing. I remember the events at Dunblane, and the immediate reaction was for a campaign to start which would effectively ban the ownership of handguns. It was a successful campaign and now handguns are no longer allowed to be legally kept by the general public, here in the UK. When the next atrocity happens here, then the person involved will probably use a shot gun. Banning handguns hasn't removed the risk of another such occurrence. I'd also point out that tightening the legislation surrounding firearms ownership wouldn't have prevented this tragedy, the guns were owned by his mother, and he had access to them.

If a child is murdered by someone with a cricket bat, do we ban cricket? If a classroom filled with children was doused in petrol, and set alight, would be ban petrol sales?

The knee jerk reactions are nothing but a salve to those who demand action. They generally achieve nothing. I wish that it wasn't so, but it is, sadly.

I wish that I had answers, but I don't believe that they're there to be found.

I was staggered at the display of dignity from the guy (a parent), who whilst in the depths of shock, grief and despair, thought to offer his condolences to the family of the murderer. How he managed it, I just don't know.

RIP little ones.

Alec.
 

Fantasy_World

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As this truly hideous and irrational event is still fresh in our minds, reaching rational and workable answers may not be possible.

My OH tried to post a quote from the wonderful, and angry and saddened Morgan Freeman, who had what may have been a potential answer as to the apparently unfathomable question "Why". The post wouldn't leave her ipod and arrive with me!!

The gist of his argument was this;

The American media (he mentioned Fox News, but there were others, and his comments would apply equally to the UK), who in clamouring for viewing figures always trip over themselves, and each other, in an effort to release what would seem to be, the most solicitous news programmes, and they are in fact, fostering those who wish to leave this life in a blaze of glory, and I'm tempted to agree with him.

Consider this, we all know the name of the murderer, but do we know the names of any of his victims? Very few of us do, I suspect. All that we're doing with this coverage is prepping the next mass killer.

To support his argument, the bulk of those who commit these atrocities, end up topping themselves, and as there seems to be little thought given to escape, their heightened sense of self worth is being, or would be, bolstered by press coverage.

I watched Obama last night, and he seemed genuinely distressed as are the rest of mankind. His immediate reaction, understandably, was that there needs to be tighter control of firearms licensing. I remember the events at Dunblane, and the immediate reaction was for a campaign to start which would effectively ban the ownership of handguns. It was a successful campaign and now handguns are no longer allowed to be legally kept by the general public, here in the UK. When the next atrocity happens here, then the person involved will probably use a shot gun. Banning handguns hasn't removed the risk of another such occurrence. I'd also point out that tightening the legislation surrounding firearms ownership wouldn't have prevented this tragedy, the guns were owned by his mother, and he had access to them.

If a child is murdered by someone with a cricket bat, do we ban cricket? If a classroom filled with children was doused in petrol, and set alight, would be ban petrol sales?

The knee jerk reactions are nothing but a salve to those who demand action. They generally achieve nothing. I wish that it wasn't so, but it is, sadly.

I wish that I had answers, but I don't believe that they're there to be found.

I was staggered at the display of dignity from the guy (a parent), who whilst in the depths of shock, grief and despair, thought to offer his condolences to the family of the murderer. How he managed it, I just don't know.

RIP little ones.

Alec.
Very well said x
 

La Fiaba

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I don't think reactions to this tragedy are 'knee jerk', because this is not the first time something like this has happened, or the second, or the third....

That young man killed almost 30 people in 2 minutes, could you do that with a cricket bat? Yes, he *could* have used a bomb, or knives or set fire to the place, but he didn't, and if it is 'just as easy' to commit these kind of crimes with these other weapons, why don't they? Over 10,000 people killed by guns in the states last year, if I lived there I would be campaigning for tighter gun laws for sure.

RIP dear children and your brave teachers xxx
 

fburton

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Imo, it's not just gun ownership and the availability of guns that is to blame for the high rate of such shootings in the US; it's also the culture which normalizes their use in a variety of imagined situations. An obvious sign of this is the prominent role that gun have in many movies and the fact they are given pride of place on movie posters and DVD artwork. (For examples, see http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page.) Isn't it a little unhealthy (and distasteful) to revel in guns for their supposed empowering aspects or for their own sake?
 

Luci07

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Alec, normally I agree with what you say but not in this case. It is not a knee jerk reaction. This entire debate is extremely hot and emotive in the US and these discussions have been going on for a while. Rational people are talking about control not outright ban. Lets not forget that the mother had 5 guns. The murderer used his mothers bush assault rifle (assault rifle WHAT????). Some of the children had up to 11 bullets in them. Here are some facts. US has some 30-35% of the worlds total handguns and 5% of the population. It is sadly becoming almost expected for yet another US massacre. Norway was mentioned. ( well it was when the next poster corrected the poster) part of the reason ( this was in the summing up during the trial ) that police and authorities took so long to react was that this was such an unusual event.

I fully agree that controls won't stop murderers who are really hell bent but i hope that the US make it far tougher for this dreadful people to get these weapons in the first place.
 

Big Ben

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I do not, can not grasp the sense in the American love affair with guns, and their much lauded right to bear arms, especially when it interferes with the rights of 22 innocent children to grow up, and a whole community to live a life of any normality going onwards.

When we lived in the UK, both as town dwellers, and out on the farm, I saw no need to own a gun, didn't need more than an air rifle to pot a few pigeons in the barn.

Now we live in the wilds in Canada, and as a family we own a cabinet full of guns, and I have used them all. We have predators, pests, and unwanted visitors, I feel better owning a gun. We live far enough from the vet that we have also used the guns to euthanize injured animals. When we wanted to buy a gun we had to do a safety course and then pass an exam that gave us a safety certificate. Then we applied to the RCMP for a gun licence, which means form filling, sending in the form, there is a minimum months processing time, as a cooling off period, and you have to provide 2 references, and those people are contacted and interviewed about your state of mind, and your suitability to own a weapon. Once you get your Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) you are then free to go shopping, I have a range of long guns I can buy, anything from the little .22 that carry for pest control, up to a gun that would stop a bear if needed.

The PAL does not allow me to buy a handgun, nor a automatic or semi automatic rifle, for those you have to take a further test, and you have very strict rules and regulations to follow, for instance you can only legally carry your hand gun on the way to and home from a registered gun range, and that is the only place you are allowed to shoot it.

So with my licence I have the right to buy and own as many guns as I want, as do all my neighbors who have licences, and most everyone does. I am well aware that there are 100's of guns kept in houses in this area, but no one brags about it, no one yells about their rights, the street signs and empty houses are not shot up. I hear many shots during hunting season, and some during off season. There is a steady crack of .22 fire during the summer as the small pests are tracked down, but you don't, well I don't feel scared.

We quietly get on with our lives, don't shout about it, and it is a non issue.
 

Alec Swan

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When I say that the current reaction is a knee jerk, I mean that little is said or heard about the need for legislation, until there is an event such as this, then Obama (or who ever), leaps up and says "We need legislation". If you'll forgive the mixed metaphors here, it is an immediate reaction, and it also smacks of horses and stable doors.

"The right to bear arms" brigade will win the day. You see if I'm not right. They will prevaricate and filibuster, until this tragedy has left our forethoughts, and there will be more pressing issues for Congress to deal with, and who knows, perhaps rightly.

I'm all for any country, America included, who take a pride in their history, but we have to remember that the good ol' boys of the 18th. & 19th. centuries, lived in a different world. This is today, the right to bear arms that applied and perhaps correctly, 100 years ago, doesn't apply today. They didn't have machine pistols then, and a firearm (a hand gun, anyway) was for self defence. There are quoted levels in excess of 10.000 people, in America, annually who are killed with guns, and the bulk of those weapons, are hand guns.

The murderer's mother owned an assault rifle.......... FFS, why did she need it, and even given that she did, would she have actually known how to use it?

America is a vast country, and such a huge and sweeping change in legislation, would cost billions, and with no will for any eventual change, then we'll just have to sit back and watch. I'm not supporting them, and no, I don't like it either.

fburton and luci07, I agree with you both, but thinking that there will be, or campaigning for change, in my view, is whistling into the wind.

Alec.
 

Luci07

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When I say that the current reaction is a knee jerk, I mean that little is said or heard about the need for legislation, until there is an event such as this, then Obama (or who ever), leaps up and says "We need legislation". If you'll forgive the mixed metaphors here, it is an immediate reaction, and it also smacks of horses and stable

fburton and luci07, I agree with you both, but thinking that there will be, or campaigning for change, in my view, is whistling into the wind.

Alec.
but someone has to stand up and make a change?

You could have said about another formally approved institution, which supported the economy and way of life for huge numbers of people. That was changed, that was slavery! Granted, extreme example but change can happen.

I actually think the volume in the US is increasing and while many keep trying to bury it, these seems to be a real groundswell of opinion changing...
 
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