American School Shooting

[Luci07]

Thank you for posting. I am fed up,with simply seeing the truly uninformed ranting on the Internet and it is a breath of fresh air to read a post from an American which is rational. My US friends and family don't share the views that we see so frequently in the media either.

 

[Wundahorse]

It's not so much the weapons that are dangerous,but the people wielding them,many of who should be kept well away from anything which can inflict harm.People with any hint of mental instability should not have access to weapons,in my view,and at least in the UK there are laws around this.In the US any nutter can have a gun.I still don't get why US citizens need semi automatic and other military type firearms,unless there are terrible dangers stalking American society on a mass scale.I have a theory that the perpetrators of mass shootings invariably have an Autistic spectrum disorder,having studied the psychological profiles and had discussions at work with other clinical staff.We have treated such people and look at the risk they present to the public,and i have to say there are some seriously worrying folk out there,who under different circumstances could inflict serious harm.It is sad there are folk out there who are well under the radar who suddenly erupt,although retrospectively there are usually warning signs which are rarely elicited and managed as the few people around them have no insight into the potential risks.Another poster referred to care in the community compared to what would have been provided historically.The old asylums managed such people which tended to keep society safe. Now there are precious few resources and most people(and children) with autism rarely fit the criteria for a service,and when the do pop up on the radar,the criteria usually rejects them.In this latest case the perpetrator had a diagnosis of Aspergers,but no indication anybody out there clearly understood the implications and risk factors associated with this socially disabling developmental disorder.These people,at the more severe end of the spectrum find it difficult to relate to the world around them,or their own feelings,and they can become increasingly frustrated and isolated from peer groups and society.They often harbor unusual and unhealthy interests and cannot always distinguish between reality and fantasy.This is at the most extreme end of the spectrum before anyone jumps on me.I apologize to anyone who has a mild form of the disorder who does function at a good level.I deal with extremes in my job and it is this perspective i am referring to.

 

[Clava]

How about this paranoid reaction to the shooting....words fail me that some can see it as a government attempt to take away their guns.
http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

This is where I came across it http://www.horseforum.com/news-politics/can-anyone-explain-me-146965/

 

[Wundahorse]

The conspiracy theories always materialize and are quite shocking to the extent they detract from the reality of this tragic event and trivializes the suffering of the poor victims and their families.These incidents are always confusing and chaotic which is why it is so hard to obtain definitive eye witness accounts,as each person has their own experiences to relate to which can vary greatly from one person to another.The lesson which needs to be addressed is the firearms licensing system in the states.Unless the USA legislates for a licensing system am afraid this will not be the last tragedy of this magnitude.Anyone with a mental health problem should be assessed for fitness to own a gun,and such assessments should be frequent as mental health problems can vary in nature and degree.

 

[Caol Ila]

I am also a member of that forum and I avoid the politics section like the plague, as it generally makes me want to throw heavy objects at the computer screen. You guys, being from a socialist state like the UK that just doesn't understand "freedom," should do the same. It makes me realise how many right wing conservatives in the US can be quite reasonable, sane sounding horse owners. People marginally to the left of Charlton Heston are in a minority on that site. I got into a political tangle over there once or twice (I think it was about gay marriage and healthcare) and all I could think was, oh.... dear.

The old asylums had their issues, but as someone who has studied them, I think they had benefits as well and it is pretty clear that de-institutionalisation has socially isolated a lot of people in the US and the UK. At least in the UK, other services (like the one my husband works at) were created to manage and help people in the wake of de-institutionalisation. They're not perfect either, but they don't do badly. The US, because of its fabulous healthcare system based on capitalist profiteering and rugged-individualist mindset that decries spending tax dollars to help the less fortunate, has feck-all. There's nae money to be had in social care.

 

[Wundahorse]

I work in Forensic Psychiatry which is a service that has proliferated at a phenomenal rate since the closure of the psychiatric hospitals.This has increased as community care has also suffered huge cutbacks and staff are struggling to maintain their patients.Recently even more hospital beds have been closed,resulting in some very unwell people at large in the community,with few support networks and the occasional contact from a CPN or other mental health professional.I mainly concentrate on Police custody liaison and i am finding a huge number of psychiatric patients going through the criminal justice system,simply for want of care and treatment.The Government are still intent on forcing more cutbacks in the next financial year.Luckily,and i do believe it is only luck,there have been no terrible tragedies here of late,but here but the grace of God go we.

 

[typekitty]

How about this paranoid reaction to the shooting....words fail me that some can see it as a government attempt to take away their guns.
http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

This is where I came across it http://www.horseforum.com/news-politics/can-anyone-explain-me-146965/

I clicked on that second link and have now been sucked in. The ignorance on there is so frustrating. Thankfully there is some voice of reason.

 

[Clava]

I clicked on that second link and have now been sucked in. The ignorance on there is so frustrating. Thankfully there is some voice of reason.

Not many though, very scary.

That thread is now closed, which is odd, but apparently many forums do not even allow th etopic to be discussed over there.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes, thank you, Tories. I think Scotland may be feeling it a bit less, but it's still not good. :/

On the argument of more guns = more freedom... well, that's pants. In fact, the opposite of a free, civil society is an armed society. The US also has the First Amendment, the right to freedom of speech. How comfortable would you be having a debate with someone carrying a gun on his hip? Nothing stifles discourse so well as people being armed. The way people interpret the Second Amendment now (probably not the way the guys who wrote it intended, but nevermind) pit it at odds with the First. Michel Foucault, who has looked at the mechanisms of power as thoroughly as anyone, has argued that nothing suits an autocratic government more than exteme individualism. What keeps a government in check is a community who can assemble and organise. It is easier to manipulate a collection of atomistic and independent individuals than a community, and private gun ownership promotes a retreat into extreme individualism and corrodes community. After all, a society where everyone is armed is a society pervaded by suspicion, fear, and mistrust, all of which undermine community and civic cooperation.

I would venture to say that the United States is one of the few countries in the world to more or less create a successful democracy (for white men anyway) after an armed insurrection. In other cases that come to my mind at least, the armed revolution has lead to a different, but equally as autocratic and repressive, government taking power.

 

[Alec Swan]

Sorry but I live in NJ and I can't contradict you.

Malcolm Gladwell explains the concept of meme pretty well in Tipping Point. In that book he talks about how one suicide led to a series of others, but the idea is the same. Once a meme http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme with traction is generated, it can be impossible to arrest the momentum. An interesting argument, and one which would suggest that Humans and Lemmings have something in common.

Michael Moore made the point in Bowling for Columbine that Canadians have plenty of guns, but they just DON'T go around shooting people with them. They are NOT generally afraid of their fellow human. And they are not generally expecting an apocalypse any day now.... Moore made a very good point, and as your thoughts progress, so the argument, correctly in my view, is that the "Right of ownership" (sic) may not actually be the problem.

America's problem is, truly, NOT a gun problem. It is a culture in decline problem. I agree with you. It is a culture that cannot come to grips with the true measure of it's past. (As in, yeah, the USA is just dandy and all that, but you have to admit that committing genocide against the native population during the initial 'acquisition' phase was, um, ya know, wrong.....etc) It is a culture that is succumbing to the dereliction of it's desires (Big Mac anybody? Walmart low prices? Wanna live your whole life sittin' on your butt playing video games? etc) Now there, I can't agree with you. Whilst I understand the history of the problem, explaining our deficiencies, by blaming it all on what happened, 300 years ago, isn't on. We've moved on. Or have we? If we haven't, then we need to.

Currently, the gun is a most beloved mode of self destruction. But yes, even if we eliminate the guns, America will still self destruct. Again, I'm not so sure. There has to be change, but change in approach and attitude and vitally, a deeper or clearer understanding of how the rest of the world views America.........

...... and importantly that as we in the UK seem to be inexplicably welded to America, so this also affects us, here.

I have a very good forum friend, also an American, and as he's taken me to task previously, then with luck he may not see this! America is so vast, and so closed, and so narrow and so insular, that as a Nation, they haven't, over the last few decades anyway, needed to consider how the remainder of the world, views them.

Just as after 9/11, when I was in Scotland and when I met up with two Americans, they were staggered at the lack of support from the bulk of the UK public. These were intelligent men, but they had been so protected by their own media, to be near cocooned.

I'm not too sure where the answer lies. My liking of American individuals is a separate issue from my loathing of previous American foreign policies, and even more so, of my intense loathing of the apparent UK support for such atrocities as Guantanamo Bay.

Sooner or later, America will have to start to consider the rest of the world, and the opinions of those who are outside their shores. One thing's for certain, it ain't going to happen overnight. Bowling for Columbine was a step in the right direction. There needs to be a deal more introspective thought though, and it needs to start at the beginning.

Isabeau, and Rutland20. Excellent posts from both of you.

I wonder if it's because I'm old that I despair of change.

Alec.

 

[Luci07]

I doubt there is anyone in the UK who could say we have it right in how we support those with any degree of mental illness. It would just seem that we are further down the road than the US in this instance albeit we have a very very long way to go. Am I in the minority in thinking it is quite unacceptable to keep throwing mental illness as the reason why all these horrendous murders happen? Seems to me that the mentally ill are an easy target and scapegoat. Absolutely understand there are dangerous mentally ill and unstable people in both our societies and think that even in 20 years time our current views will seem oppressive and uneducated. Lets not forget, in the UK, it wasn't that long ago that epileptics were thought to be mentally ill too..

So ..can any good come out of this tragedy? Maybe. If it encourages society to look under the covers and try to start to facilitate change. It has happened before, it can happen again..

 

[CorvusCorax]

Some great points on here and nice to get the inside view from R20, Isibeau and CI (where in CO, by the way?)

I saw this and thought of you guys:
"If you think the government is going to take away your guns, you are crazy & should have your guns taken away."

Have I mentioned Living for 32 enough times?

 

[Luci07]

Just read Alec's post which came in while I was writing and I whole heartedly share the majority of his sentiments, although I am more optimistic. I have worked for a number of huge well known US companies and the attitude towards " the rest of the world" is truly staggering at times, though I have found that most New Yorkers tend to have a more global stance ...no idea why! remember sailing into Russia on a sales trip and the night before, we were all warned by a senior staff member to be careful as " we are Americans" yes, I did go up afterwards, ably supported by 2 girlfriends and introduced ourself as xxx, British. Luckily he did have a SOH and apologised...

 

[Clava]

From discussing this issue on the US horse forum, I can't see how there will ever be meaningful change to their gun laws, having guns seems to be so ingrained into their culture that not having so many guns is unthinkable. The only answer suggested to the gun crimes seemd to be more guns to protect people - some even suggested that if the teachers had been armed then it would not have happened.

 

[Caol Ila]

CaveCanem, I'm from Boulder. I like your quote!

I manned up and read through part of the thread. No surprising or new arguments -- just what you see on Fox News, or on reader comments for news articles online. Except for the person who said buying an assault rifle just because you want one is no different than buying a fancy, fast car because you want one. You just want to say, Really????? It is illustrative of the point I made earlier in this thread -- how ingrained it all is in American psyche.

As for "blaming" these tragedies on "mental illness," well, if you read literature on the insanity defense, which has existed in one form or another since the Middle Ages (or earlier, in some cultures), there's endless discussion on whether or not the nature of the crime itself can or should be constituted as a symptom of mental illness. There isn't a straightforward answer and we haven't figured it out any more than the Victorians did.

In any case, I made the point in my thesis that there have always been individuals in any given society classified as crazy or abnormal or mad. How the crazy manifests itself is then dependent on socio-cultural factors. People's delusions, paranoias, and so on are very clearly derived from their contemporary political and social events. Unfortunately in the US, there is a sort of madness born out of isolation and social dysfunction that leads people to engage in these mass shootings. Do the perpetrators of this fit the "classical" insanity defense paradigm? Not knowing the difference between right and wrong, nor appreciating the nature and consequences of their action?

 

[CorvusCorax]

PMing you!

 

[Wundahorse]

Mental illness certainly explains why some violent crimes are perpetrated and the causal factors are numerous and often very individual.There is the other argument about psychopathic disorder,where there is no evidence of mental illness,just amoral,remorseless,impulsive behavior with no hint of victim empathy.Even with psychopathy the jury is out as it is abnormal to express these antisocial traits,therefore either nature,nurture or both may be the triggers.Research suggests a frontal lobe problem,but not in all cases. There are similarities between Autistic traits,personality disorder and schizophrenia which does confuse the picture,but with a thorough assessment the different elements which define these disorders should be apparent.There is a lot of research around whether people are born "bad" or they become bad through their upbringing and experiences.Some of the best longitudinal research by Farrington and West suggests there is a genetic link in some cases.The rest may be influenced by upbringing,culture,values and beliefs and biological causes.I have dealt with some cases where the individuals are fixated on war,firearms,death and all manner of morbid themes.One of the biggest indicators is childhood cruelty to animals. Believe me, i have nursed some very psychopathic people in my time who have no comprehension of the difference between right and wrong,good or bad,and they have absolutely no emotional empathy to any living thing.If such individuals had access to firearms they would not hesitate to use them.Fortunately the ones i have dealt with are locked up for life.It is the lone wolf we need to be aware of.I wonder how many more are lurking out there waiting for that catalyst which could trigger the next massacre.From the insights i have of these crimes,revenge is often a central theme.In a country as big as the States i can only assume there are plenty of odd bods who go totally unnoticed.

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

Finally, whilst not detracting at all from the loss suffered by the families and friends, it was briefly mentioned on the news today that 10 Afghan children, ages 9 -11 were killed by a mine/i.e.d whilst collecting firewood. Are their lives worth less than the American children? going by the media coverage given to both events then yes. and i find that very very sad indeed.

I found this incredibly distressing that some children can be viewed as more important than other

Michael Moore made the point in Bowling for Columbine that Canadians have plenty of guns, but they just DON'T go around shooting people with them. They are NOT generally afraid of their fellow human. And they are not generally expecting an apocalypse any day now....

America's problem is, truly, NOT a gun problem. It is a culture in decline problem.

Currently, the gun is a most beloved mode of self destruction. But yes, even if we eliminate the guns, America will still self destruct.

remember sailing into Russia on a sales trip and the night before, we were all warned by a senior staff member to be careful as " we are Americans" yes, I did go up afterwards, ably supported by 2 girlfriends and introduced ourself as xxx, British. Luckily he did have a SOH and apologised...

I don't think it just the rest of the world either. My dad was posted to America in the 80's and made friends with a largely black community as he was British he wasn't seen as threatening although I won't pretend to understand much about it your story just reminded me.

CaveCanem, I'm from Boulder. I like your quote!

I manned up and read through part of the thread. No surprising or new arguments -- just what you see on Fox News, or on reader comments for news articles online. Except for the person who said buying an assault rifle just because you want one is no different than buying a fancy, fast car because you want one. You just want to say, Really????? It is illustrative of the point I made earlier in this thread -- how ingrained it all is in American psyche.

As for "blaming" these tragedies on "mental illness," well, if you read literature on the insanity defense, which has existed in one form or another since the Middle Ages (or earlier, in some cultures), there's endless discussion on whether or not the nature of the crime itself can or should be constituted as a symptom of mental illness. There isn't a straightforward answer and we haven't figured it out any more than the Victorians did.

In any case, I made the point in my thesis that there have always been individuals in any given society classified as crazy or abnormal or mad. How the crazy manifests itself is then dependent on socio-cultural factors. People's delusions, paranoias, and so on are very clearly derived from their contemporary political and social events. Unfortunately in the US, there is a sort of madness born out of isolation and social dysfunction that leads people to engage in these mass shootings. Do the perpetrators of this fit the "classical" insanity defense paradigm? Not knowing the difference between right and wrong, nor appreciating the nature and consequences of their action?

You have put my thoughts much better than I could. There is mental illness in every culture but something about America cultivates this sort of mass shooting.

This has been a very enlightening debate for me about the healthcare, media, attitudes and issues that seem to be a melting pot ATM. People in Europe could drive into schools with cricket bats and yet they don't something about guns makes killing easier, detached making them less available will go some way to helping the symptoms of a far more deep rooted problem but would mask real issues.


In my limited experience I find a lot of American attitudes to the outside world bewilderingly ignorant as mentioned above, how are they more free or so much better than the rest of us?? To me Americans especially on the linked forum seem afraid of each other, strangers, an unknown armed attack, some sort of apocalypse, wild animals. I would hate to live with that level of fear that I thought it vital to have a gun to defend myself. But then I don't feel I have anything to defend myself from.

 

[Isabeau]

In my limited experience I find a lot of American attitudes to the outside world bewilderingly ignorant as mentioned above, how are they more free or so much better than the rest of us?? To me Americans especially on the linked forum seem afraid of each other, strangers, an unknown armed attack, some sort of apocalypse, wild animals. I would hate to live with that level of fear that I thought it vital to have a gun to defend myself. But then I don't feel I have anything to defend myself from.

Fear is an essential component of the culture of consumption.

You are encouraged to be afraid of the social stigma of acne so you will buy the acne treatment cream. Afraid of the wrinkles, so you buy wrinkle cream. Afraid of appearing poor, so you buy the status symbol car. Afraid of paying high prices so you shop at Walmart. Afraid of slow service or an 'unknown' product so you buy fast food at McDonalds. Afraid of old age so you buy investment 'products.' Afraid of being a single female living alone so you buy a gun.

Encouraging fear is a very effective way of driving the purchase of many different consumables. "You should be afraid. You ARE afraid. Do you want your fear to go away? Buy this."

When discussing health care with opponents of a national system, I often hear "But I am just terrified of the government controlling my health care." Terrified. Their argument against national health care is that they are afraid. They expect that to be argument enough. They expect their fear to be the final word, the final argument. They are afraid.

 

[DraftLVR]

While the loss of life war horrific, I would like to make some observations about what I have read on this Forum

If the Lady had her guns locked in a safe as any good Gun owner should, her son who was obviously mentally ill would have not had access to the guns.

In 1927 45 Children were killed at their school by a Bomb made with dynamite

More Gun Laws or bans on certain weapons or magazine capacities will not do any good, actually since the last ban expired guns deaths have actually gone down from 10,000 in 2005 to 7,000 as of 2011, most deaths by a gun were suicides and criminals.

The US is 3.7 Million Square Miles with 320 Million people, the UK is 94,000 Square miles with 64 million people.

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country

The US borders Mexico with some of the worse crime coming across the border into the US, every day there are these drug lords coming across the border murdering and robbing US citizens, the Mexican Gangs are also rampant in most major cities in the US

If guns are outlawed, what is to stop the criminals from Mexico bring in a few thousand weapons every month along with the few thousand tons of drugs they bring into the US?

The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country

The US has Bears, Mountain Lions, Bobcats and Cougars, try defending your Family, Horses and property with a knife or club.

The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.

 

[Wundahorse]

I don't think anyone on this forum is saying Americans cannot use guns against predatory wildlife or violent assailants.The issue is the ease in which Americans have access to guns,and that there is a minority who for whatever reason,abuses the power of the weapon in their hands by killing innocent children and people in irrational massacres.We will never understand the reason why this occurs as the perpetrators tend to kill themselves,thus it is left to hypothesis as a means to try and gain insights into the nature of the gunmen or women.It is to prevent these atrocities that action needs to be taken,not to remove firearms from farmers who need them to protect their stock or hunt .

 

[Clava]

The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country.....

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country....
.

Our police are not regularly armed anyway, so although better response times (in some areas) they wouldn't be bringing guns with them anyway.

The US has a homicide rate of 3.7 people per 100,000 due to guns and the UK has 0.4 - more guns equates to more gun deaths, but gun laws to work they needs to be enforced properly.

 

[Clava]

The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.

Not sure what drunk drivers has to do with this, just because there are other terrible things happening doesn't lessen gun crime.

I think a perspective from outside the US where things can be very different (in the UK) and we can feel safe without having to have a gun is perhaps exactly the input you may need to make a radical change as whatever you are doing now the high death rate implies that it is not working so well.

 

[SusannaF]

Yes, because we spend all our time on this forum saying that drunk driving is a good thing


The fact that the mother seemed to believe all that Fox News crazy about the collapse of civilization can't really have helped the situation.

 

[Caol Ila]

While the loss of life war horrific, I would like to make some observations about what I have read on this Forum

If the Lady had her guns locked in a safe as any good Gun owner should, her son who was obviously mentally ill would have not had access to the guns.

In 1927 45 Children were killed at their school by a Bomb made with dynamite

More Gun Laws or bans on certain weapons or magazine capacities will not do any good, actually since the last ban expired guns deaths have actually gone down from 10,000 in 2005 to 7,000 as of 2011, most deaths by a gun were suicides and criminals.

The US is 3.7 Million Square Miles with 320 Million people, the UK is 94,000 Square miles with 64 million people.

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country

The US borders Mexico with some of the worse crime coming across the border into the US, every day there are these drug lords coming across the border murdering and robbing US citizens, the Mexican Gangs are also rampant in most major cities in the US

If guns are outlawed, what is to stop the criminals from Mexico bring in a few thousand weapons every month along with the few thousand tons of drugs they bring into the US?

The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country

The US has Bears, Mountain Lions, Bobcats and Cougars, try defending your Family, Horses and property with a knife or club.

The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.

Dude, reread the thread! Some of us who posted here ARE American. We know exactly what goes on and can judge it all we want. As can Brits and the rest of the world. Surely by your logic, you can't judge the way the Taliban, say, treated women, because you're not Afghan and you have no idea what goes on in Afghanistan.

I've seen that argument elsewhere -- the international perspective getting dismissed on the grounds of "you're not American; you just don't understand." Well, for one, that tells me that you actually don't have a good argument and for two, plenty of Americans agree with the international perspective. Not everyone over there is a raging gun nut. However, the US can't get over the national myth that it is "exceptional" and looking at the rest of the world, what seems to work in other countries, would imply that another county is doing something better, undermining that myth.

I would have to double check the regulations as per guns in DC and Chicago, but at the end of the day, it has to be a federal law. You should cite your statistics. Given that there are no border controls between any states, anyone can buy a gun in a neighbouring state and take it into Chicago or DC. This is done for less serious things -- we used to buy booze in New Hampshire and bring it back to Massachusetts because it was cheaper in NH (probably not really, if you add the price of petrol to get to the NH border, but we're talking student mentality here).

I saw on the news this morning that four people were shot in Colorado -- a family domestic that turned into a murder-suicide. Very sad.

I think what Isabeau said about fear making people want things, or not want things (i.e. state-run healthcare) was a beautifully written post. The far right fears tyranny? That's why they need all their guns? The far right rhetoric, exacerbating fear, fear of liberals, gays, their neighbours, European socialists, change, immigrants, elitists, education, atheists, sex, the government, ad nauseam, is where tyranny ferments. Autocratic governments maintain power through a fearful, easily-manipulated citizenry.

 

[Alec Swan]

Whether others feel that my modest observations about mankind, also apply to Americans, will be for those others, to decide.

Having spent some considerable time all around the UK, I've noticed that be a person, English, a Scot, a Welsh or an Irishman, when he's travelled away from his home land, when he's worked away, or been in the forces, when he's travelled and considered others, apart from those who are in his immediate environment, then he tends to be a more worldly man, and all so often a more tolerant man, too.

When I've travelled to Scotland, Wales or Ireland, and I've met with those who've "Bin nowhere, and done nuffink", then whilst not always, but all so often, I've met with the narrow minded and the bigot.

America is the World to an awful lot of Americans. Expecting every American to travel and consider different cultures and mind sets isn't being realistic.

Regardless of the country of origin, those who live within a narrowed world, will have a similar view of life.

America has a sense of history, which I suspect is distorted. Those "Good 'ol boys", who were promoted as gun wielding heros, during the second half of the 19th. century, by the media at the time, and so many of the writers of the day, were actually murdering criminals, in reality. Where shall we start the list? Jesse James? Doc Holliday? Wyatt Earp? Murderers, nothing more or less. So why are they held aloft as heros to whom the common man should aspire? The firearm may well have had a place in the lives of many, 150 years ago. So did the horse, but that's changed too.

Children are where the world needs to start, with adjusting twisted viewpoints, but as with the parental influence upon racism, I suspect that it's going to take a long time, and it wont be easy!!

I've particularly enjoyed the contributions from all those who are resident in America, and whilst DraftLVR, I really struggle with some of your statements, your opinions are of value too.

If you're to shoot at me, would you please do so, but quietly?

Alec.

 

[cefyl]

Good post Alec

I have spent the past 35 years living for much of the time in America, I am married to an American, and though mostly resident back in the UK we still own several business interests there and property.

Guns are ingrained into the American psyche, maybe as Alec says partly a throwback to the hero status of the Wild West gun toting figures like Wyatt Earp, and further back to the conquering Pilgrim Fathers. I cannot see how or who can change this.

Before I got married in the early 1980's a neighbour at the next town home in the gated community I lived at was burgled. A policeman investigating the crime saw me going into my home and came over asking if I had seen anyone suspicious. When he determined I lived alone he asked outright if I had a gun. I did not so I was told to get one, if someone broke in and I was home to shoot them, if they tried to get away shoot them, if they were injured outside shoot them again and drag them back in - then call the police!!! I never did get a gun. But that was very much the attitude of the time.

My late father in law had a loaded gun, sometimes 2 or 3 in every room. Most of our friends in the states do the same, or at least 2 loaded guns in a house. Now we are not talking about those living in low income neighbourhoods but the high end very wealthy portion, multi-million dollar homes with full security, staff. They see it as the norm, and their right.

15 years ago I lost a friend who was gunned down by a boyfriend after breaking up with him. He was a successful business man, pillar of the community, who turned up in the afternoon at her house with a semi-automatic and kicked the door in and shot her as she tried to get out the back door, then he also gunned down her neighbour who had been there as she tried to run away down the drive. Hear of so so many similar instances. He got off with 6 months in jail due to dimished mental responsibility, a good lawyer and a doctor who said his mind was altered by anti-depressants prescribed because he was depressed about the break up.

Had another friend who came to my office one day, there she received a phone call from her husband who had stopped at a convenience store (in a quite neighbourhood) to use a phone because his cell phone had died and he was telling her he was on the way home. While on the phone she heard 2 loud pops, he stopped talking but she could here someone yelling in the background. He had been shot, in the back, by an opportunist at 3.00 o'clock in the afternoon hoping to grab some cash or jewellery. Just too too easy. Just walked up, gun in the pocket - bang.

The drive by shootings, the mall shootings, the restaurant shootings, all the ones that happen every day, every week that NEVER make the news outside of the USA because, well it happens all the time, just normal. Did anyone in the UK hear of the mass shooting that killed 23 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, Texas in 1991? It barely made news outside of the state. The response of the Texas legislature was to start issuing licences to carry concealed handguns in 1996 following pressure to allow this (prior to 1996 is was an offence in Texas to carry a concealed weapon though to have one loaded hanging on a gun rack inyour car was perfectly OK), citing it would serve for people to better protect themselves. Fighting fire with fire???

Yet what did the UK do after the 1996 Dunblane massacre ? Quickly ban public ownership of handguns. What did Australia do after the 1996 Tasmanian massacre of 35 people by a man with a semi-automatic? Quickly banned semi-automatics, assault rifles, and seriously controlled private gun ownership - there has not been one mass shooting there since.

What does the US do normally? Actually INCREASES the right to bear arms, more and more states now allows concealed weapons, encourages more people to carry loaded weapons (now the call for all teachers to have a loaded weapon in each classroom). Perhaps it really has gone way to far to turn back.

 

[typekitty]

Good post Alec

I have spent the past 35 years living for much of the time in America, I am married to an American, and though mostly resident back in the UK we still own several business interests there and property.

Guns are ingrained into the American psyche, maybe as Alec says partly a throwback to the hero status of the Wild West gun toting figures like Wyatt Earp, and further back to the conquering Pilgrim Fathers. I cannot see how or who can change this.

Before I got married in the early 1980's a neighbour at the next town home in the gated community I lived at was burgled. A policeman investigating the crime saw me going into my home and came over asking if I had seen anyone suspicious. When he determined I lived alone he asked outright if I had a gun. I did not so I was told to get one, if someone broke in and I was home to shoot them, if they tried to get away shoot them, if they were injured outside shoot them again and drag them back in - then call the police!!! I never did get a gun. But that was very much the attitude of the time.

My late father in law had a loaded gun, sometimes 2 or 3 in every room. Most of our friends in the states do the same, or at least 2 loaded guns in a house. Now we are not talking about those living in low income neighbourhoods but the high end very wealthy portion, multi-million dollar homes with full security, staff. They see it as the norm, and their right.

15 years ago I lost a friend who was gunned down by a boyfriend after breaking up with him. He was a successful business man, pillar of the community, who turned up in the afternoon at her house with a semi-automatic and kicked the door in and shot her as she tried to get out the back door, then he also gunned down her neighbour who had been there as she tried to run away down the drive. Hear of so so many similar instances. He got off with 6 months in jail due to dimished mental responsibility, a good lawyer and a doctor who said his mind was altered by anti-depressants prescribed because he was depressed about the break up.

Had another friend who came to my office one day, there she received a phone call from her husband who had stopped at a convenience store (in a quite neighbourhood) to use a phone because his cell phone had died and he was telling her he was on the way home. While on the phone she heard 2 loud pops, he stopped talking but she could here someone yelling in the background. He had been shot, in the back, by an opportunist at 3.00 o'clock in the afternoon hoping to grab some cash or jewellery. Just too too easy. Just walked up, gun in the pocket - bang.

The drive by shootings, the mall shootings, the restaurant shootings, all the ones that happen every day, every week that NEVER make the news outside of the USA because, well it happens all the time, just normal. Did anyone in the UK hear of the mass shooting that killed 23 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, Texas in 1991? It barely made news outside of the state. The response of the Texas legislature was to start issuing licences to carry concealed handguns in 1996 following pressure to allow this (prior to 1996 is was an offence in Texas to carry a concealed weapon though to have one loaded hanging on a gun rack inyour car was perfectly OK), citing it would serve for people to better protect themselves. Fighting fire with fire???

Yet what did the UK do after the 1996 Dunblane massacre ? Quickly ban public ownership of handguns. What did Australia do after the 1996 Tasmanian massacre of 35 people by a man with a semi-automatic? Quickly banned semi-automatics, assault rifles, and seriously controlled private gun ownership - there has not been one mass shooting there since.

What does the US do normally? Actually INCREASES the right to bear arms, more and more states now allows concealed weapons, encourages more people to carry loaded weapons (now the call for all teachers to have a loaded weapon in each classroom). Perhaps it really has gone way to far to turn back.

^ Spot on.

I watched a video of a witness giving testimony regarding the Texas cafeteria shooting. She was saying that, from where she hid, she had a clear shot to get the gunman, had she had her pistol in her purse (it was left in the car due to the law) and it was the laws fault that she wasn't able to shoot him and more people were killed.

It annoys me that people think, that in the heat of the moment, they can stop a gunman in the middle of a shoot out if they are armed. I think this is ridiculous, as you never know how you're going to respond in any sort of situation like that, or what else could happen! So to just think, 'Well, if I had a gun, he'd be dead and that would do it' just seems... ridiculous.

Edited to add: It also grinds my gears that Americans seem to think that democracy and freedom goes hand in hand with owning a gun.