And now (sorry, same livery)

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JillA

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..............her daughter is riding (in the field, walk and trot) a lame pony. Fairly severe arthritic knee, field lame and had veterinary treatment. Mother says vet advised it was fine to ride her at walk, and tonight when I queried it, she also says he agreed to riding her at trot. I don't believe that, but daughter has mental issues and gives her mother hell if she doesn't get her own way.
Definitely a welfare issue, but I can't very well approach their vet (not the same one as I use) to check. Do you think one of the welfare organisations would?
Yes, I can tell them to find somewhere else for livery but that won't help a pony who to all intents and purposes is being abused.
 
Why can't you check with the vet?
They may not discuss the case with you but it may prompt them to 'clarify their instructions' to your livery (if indeed they should not be trotting)
 
My friends horse has arthritis and she was advised to keep the horse restricted work. The vet said the worse thing you can do is stop the work the horse will just get stiffer and in more pain. It looks cruel but is part of her treatment plan along with steroid injections.
 
Stuckinmud said:
My friends horse has arthritis and she was advised to keep the horse restricted work. The vet said the worse thing you can do is stop the work the horse will just get stiffer and in more pain. It looks cruel but is part of her treatment plan along with steroid injections.
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I've seen many arthritic conditions that need keeping supple with light work - generally field sound but lame when work begins, IME. This isn't one of them, the knee is badly disfigured with bony growths (one description was bony growth impacting on the tendon sheath). Toe pointing and lame in the field - and a couple of weeks ago just after they had had the vet out they were bemoaning the fact that the mare was needing to be retired. If I contact the vet either the vet will contact them and say "Your yard owner has told me....." or advise me to tell them myself and they won't accept it from me.
Poor pony - the result of a long hard life in the SJ ring, pot hunting so I am told.
 
Sounds as though it needs to be pts, ask WHW to visit.
I would phone their vet and tell him what is going on and that you are concerned for the welfare, he is [supposedly] bound by some sort of ethics to care for animal welfare, but he cannot tell them that you called if you make it clear this is in confidence. They are not legally obliged to follow the vet's advice anyway, but they are legally obliged not to abuse the animal.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
Sounds as though it needs to be pts, ask WHW to visit.
I would phone their vet and tell him what is going on and that you are concerned for the welfare, he is [supposedly] bound by some sort of ethics to care for animal welfare, but he cannot tell them that you called if you make it clear this is in confidence. They are not legally obliged to follow the vet's advice anyway, but they are legally obliged not to abuse the animal.
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Of course the vet can tell his client who called what on earth is going to stop him .
But I do think OP needs to ring him and tell the owner when she's done so and why .
 
Goldenstar said:
Of course the vet can tell his client who called what on earth is going to stop him .
But I do think OP needs to ring him and tell the owner when she's done so and why .
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You ask him to give his word that he won't blab before you tell him what is going on, if he refuses, just call RSPCA. There is no reason why he should start any conversation with "your yard owner tells me you are abusing this horse, is it true?" In fact he would have to start any conversation with " I just happened to be passing ...."
[and of course it has to be at a time when the owner is there]. To be honest its probably best to call WHW to discuss best options.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
You ask him to give his word that he won't blab before you tell him what is going on, if he refuses, just call RSPCA. There is no reason why he should start any conversation with "your yard owner tells me you are abusing this horse, is it true?" In fact he would have to start any conversation with " I just happened to be passing ...."
[and of course it has to be at a time when the owner is there]. To be honest its probably best to call WHW to discuss best options.
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Why does it all have to be so underhand?
These liveries just sound novice and ignorant, there are hundreds similar all over the countryside.
If I were YO I would say to the liveries face that I felt the horse was too lame for what they were doing and as a result was suffering and that under my duty of care I was going to speak to the vet. And then I would call vet, describe symptoms and ask them to phone liveries to discuss.
 
Bonkers2 said:
You ask him to give his word that he won't blab before you tell him what is going on, if he refuses, just call RSPCA. There is no reason why he should start any conversation with "your yard owner tells me you are abusing this horse, is it true?" In fact he would have to start any conversation with " I just happened to be passing ...."
[and of course it has to be at a time when the owner is there]. To be honest its probably best to call WHW to discuss best options.
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Why on earth is a vet with whom the horse owner has a professional relationship going to lie to his client .
It's would be nuts and very unprofessional .Why do people think that honesty is not the best policy why on earth would a yard owner not have the balls to stand by what she believes .
If they ( this no judgement on OP ) can't stand a bit of a scene and a bit of flouncing then their in the wrong business .

If I were OP I would say ring the vet and say theres a problem can you help me manage it and then I would tell the client what I had done .
 
Actually what I have done is sent the vet a message via their FB page. It's up to him now, because owners won't accept any advice from me, and I suspect they may have heard only what they wanted to when the vet was telling them. Same thing with shoes - mare is still shod with new shoes in the last couple of weeks even though she is supposedly retired and never goes anywhere but field or school.
 
Any livery yards I have been at have made it clear that if they think the horse is being abused or needs a vet they will call one whether or not I agree. Never have to worry about that personally as I tend to call the vet out too often according to the current people but Meh.

Thing is though the OP doesn't know what the vet told them. I mean it does sound like the horse shouldn't be ridden and probably does need retired/pts. But she doesn't know what the vet told them and as they did call one that's where it feels a bit iffy to me. OP does have a professional reputation to uphold to and if it got round that she questions advice from a vet that doesn't sound too good in the wrong context (which let's face it these people sound like they would make it the wrong context).

However I would make an anonymous phone call to the WHW. They will just say they have been advised by a member of the public regarding the horse who is to know who it was that said?
 
I am another one who would support being as open as possible. If it were me behaving like your livery (not that I would, but for the sake of argument) my YO would be straight on the phone to the vet and would be telling me all about it. YO might also invoke the clause in the livery agreement that allows the yard to arrange vet appointments for my horse at my expense if YO feels it necessary on welfare grounds. In none of this is the YO doing anything wrong and there would be no secrecy about any of it.

At least if that doesn't resolve the situation for the poor horse then at least you have some facts to give WHW or whoever when you call them.

Best of luck in resolving it. Sounds like you are the only person in this poor animal's corner.
 
JillA said:
Actually what I have done is sent the vet a message via their FB page. It's up to him now, because owners won't accept any advice from me, and I suspect they may have heard only what they wanted to when the vet was telling them. Same thing with shoes - mare is still shod with new shoes in the last couple of weeks even though she is supposedly retired and never goes anywhere but field or school.
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It's really not your place to interfere in them shoeing the horse if that's what they choose ,you and I might think that's silly but I have certainly received veterinary advice that's pro shoeing for arthritic horses .
No one going to think the horse wearing shoes is something the YOer should interfering in unless they are leaving them on for three months between shoeings .
Owners have the right to make choices that YOers disagree with .
 
Response from the vet "Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. That horse is definitely not being ridden under veterinary direction. Xxxxx (name of vet) will ring owner again today to confirm and reiterate this, Thankyou very much."

Which means they have lied to me - as I suspected.
 
JillA said:
Response from the vet "Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. That horse is definitely not being ridden under veterinary direction. Xxxxx (name of vet) will ring owner again today to confirm and reiterate this, Thankyou very much."

Which means they have lied to me - as I suspected.
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Good now you know I would tackle them directly .
Perhaps wait a little to let the vet contact them .
They might of course move the horse which might be best for you but not for the horse .
 
I am sorry, but if the horse is 'field lame' and pointing its toe, and uncomfortable day and night, I do not see why this becomes acceptable just because it is not ridden.

I have my own place, and have refused liveries, but if I did have my own horse or a livery horse that was in pain 24/7 then I would ensure, for mine, that it either had veterinary care such that it was no longer in pain, or it were PTS. I don't mind if a horse has to endure some pain as a rehab to fitness, but it sounds like this poor horse is expected to be pointing and limping forever? I don't suppose a bone growth impinging on a tendon sheath (if that was it?) is going to resolve.

If it were a livery then it would be as above, or in a different yard. People keeping horses indefinitely in pain is one reason I hate to sell, and rarely do.
 
JillA said:
Response from the vet "Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. That horse is definitely not being ridden under veterinary direction. Xxxxx (name of vet) will ring owner again today to confirm and reiterate this, Thankyou very much."

Which means they have lied to me - as I suspected.
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Very good to hear that response, hopefully they will get the message. Sounds like the pony will need to live out a nice summer on pain killers and not go into winter.
 
JillA said:
Response from the vet "Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. That horse is definitely not being ridden under veterinary direction. Xxxxx (name of vet) will ring owner again today to confirm and reiterate this, Thankyou very much."

Which means they have lied to me - as I suspected.
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This doesn't mean they lied to you. In your first post you say the mother said the vet had "advised" that it was alright to ride.

The conversation could have gone along the lines of Vet: he is old, arthritic and can be kept more comfortable on bute and some light exercise will help with the stiffness. Owner: what do you mean by light exercise Vet: turnout is better than being stood in, walked out in hand Owner would my daughter be alright to ride him Vet: yes but just don't overdo it

Owner could quite honestly say that the vet had advised them it was alright to ride and the Vet could quite honestly say they had not advised that the pony needed to be ridden.
 
Lizzie66 said:
This doesn't mean they lied to you. In your first post you say the mother said the vet had "advised" that it was alright to ride.

The conversation could have gone along the lines of Vet: he is old, arthritic and can be kept more comfortable on bute and some light exercise will help with the stiffness. Owner: what do you mean by light exercise Vet: turnout is better than being stood in, walked out in hand Owner would my daughter be alright to ride him Vet: yes but just don't overdo it

Owner could quite honestly say that the vet had advised them it was alright to ride and the Vet could quite honestly say they had not advised that the pony needed to be ridden.
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A lot of people don't seem to know that the reason a horse can appear sound in walk but clearly lame in trot is because trot puts the weight on 2 legs at a time, walk on 4 legs and there is the concussive effect plus joint bending to take into account too. A sad reflection on the state of basic knowledge in the horse-owning world. Poor little pony. I suppose on the plus side, if they are prepared to fork out to continue with shoeing, they aren't entirely broke into the bargain.
 
My retired horse wears shoes! He's arthritic and sore feet is the very last thing he needs. I don't think that's a issue tbh.
The vet sounds good, sounds like they care. Owners sound like A holes
 
Once the vet has advised them I would be telling them that if they wish to continue to ride a lame horse, against veterinary advice they are not doing it on your yard as it goes against your legal duty of care as a yard owner.

Not good for the pony if they do move elsewhere and carry on but it might at least lay on a bit of seriousness about the situation.
 
If OP is the YO in this case (correct, yes??) then one way forward might be to perhaps get the vet AND the livery (plus parent(s)) all together on the yard at the same time.

It could be phrased perhaps with words to the effect of "there are some obvious concerns about how to manage this pony effectively on the yard, shall we get the vet and yourselves together to discuss how we might best deal with the situation, as the pony doesn't appear comfortable in ridden work and might perhaps need different management"........ or other words saying the same thing.

I think that as a YO I'd want the vet and owner there, both at the same time, to try and find a way forward for this unfortunate pony - and if it appears in obvious pain and/or discomfort in ridden work, as a YO I'd not want to see that on my yard.

Think OP if you ARE the YO, then you might have to instigate this. Or if they refuse, then give them notice and out they go. I couldn't stand anything on my yard being in obvious pain like this.
 
ester said:
Once the vet has advised them I would be telling them that if they wish to continue to ride a lame horse, against veterinary advice they are not doing it on your yard as it goes against your legal duty of care as a yard owner.

Not good for the pony if they do move elsewhere and carry on but it might at least lay on a bit of seriousness about the situation.
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I absolutely agree.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
If OP is the YO in this case (correct, yes??) then one way forward might be to perhaps get the vet AND the livery (plus parent(s)) all together on the yard at the same time.

It could be phrased perhaps with words to the effect of "there are some obvious concerns about how to manage this pony effectively on the yard, shall we get the vet and yourselves together to discuss how we might best deal with the situation, as the pony doesn't appear comfortable in ridden work and might perhaps need different management"........ or other words saying the same thing.

I think that as a YO I'd want the vet and owner there, both at the same time, to try and find a way forward for this unfortunate pony - and if it appears in obvious pain and/or discomfort in ridden work, as a YO I'd not want to see that on my yard.

Think OP if you ARE the YO, then you might have to instigate this. Or if they refuse, then give them notice and out they go. I couldn't stand anything on my yard being in obvious pain like this.
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This is ideal I think.
 
Yes I am the YO. As regard a vet visit, that is something someone will have to pay for, and I doubt they will agree to that. Vet has fully diagnosed the condition with scans and x rays, other than pain relief there is no good reason why he should visit again.
Much as I hate any conflict on the yard, I am reluctant to move them on as that just moves the problem elsewhere and leaves the poor pony open to more abuse (I have years of experience with rescues and it isn't something I can turn a blind eye to TBH). I have spoken to BHS Welfare who said ignoring a vets advice is a serious matter and if she rides her again (I will be able to video her on my phone) they will send a Welfare Officer out to speak to them.
The next couple of weeks will be revealing.
 
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JillA said:
Yes I am the YO. As regard a vet visit, that is something someone will have to pay for, and I doubt they will agree to that. Vet has fully diagnosed the condition with scans and x rays, other than pain relief there is no good reason why he should visit again.
Much as I hate any conflict on the yard, I am reluctant to move them on as that just moves the problem elsewhere and leaves the poor pony open to more abuse (I have years of experience with rescues and it isn't something I can turn a blind eye to TBH). I have spoken to BHS Welfare who said ignoring a vets advice is a serious matter and if she rides her again (I will be able to video her on my phone) they will send a Welfare Officer out to speak to them.
The next couple of weeks will be revealing.
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I think you should have talked to them before calling welfare.. I get that as a yo you have some concerns but I think going behind their back is all a bit underhand.And the whole covert videoing makes me a bit uncomfortable tbh.

If you dont want to come straight out with it maybe say that the vet has visited the yard to see another horse and you was chatting about their pony and you could say that you mentioned them riding it and he/she said that it shouldnt be ridden - or something along those kind of line - and see how they react? They could have generally got their wires crossed if they are novice owners and think that as the vet said gentle exercise that what they are doing is ok.

Some people just need things spelling out ( abeit carefully in this case )
 
indie1282 said:
I think you should have talked to them before calling welfare.. I get that as a yo you have some concerns but I think going behind their back is all a bit underhand.
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She hasn't officially reported them. I think OP has simply gone to BHS Welfare for advice on how to handle the situation, as she was advised to do earlier in this thread. Perfectly sensible and appropriate.

If OP does end up videoing the girl riding the horse, there's no reason it has to be covert. According to them, the vet said it's ok, so there would be nothing to hide or get upset about if they were caught riding, would there? Their reaction would speak volumes.

(I get the impression that the mother finds it easier to put an uncomplaining horse in pain rather than deal with her daughter when told she can't ride. Would I be right, OP?)

There also seems to be little point in OP speaking directly to the owners. It would appear that OP carries no weight with them as an authority figure or advisor, so has to influence things by having the right people talk to them. It's not ideal, but sometimes when you know you're in the right and something must be done, that's how it goes.

The next couple of weeks will be revealing indeed, OP.
 
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