Animal Communicators - who's convinced?

Looking at that lady's website, there are afew things I find hard to accept. For example, the Grand National winner who she quotes as saying, "It was great, it made me famous!"

I don't believe animals have an understanding of how our competitions and shows work. They may enjoy the company of the other animals, the fuss, the day out or the race itself possibly. But I don't see how they'd know who'd "won" or even understand that concept.

As for fame amongst humans... How would a horse know that?
 
He would know he won because he was first past the line and he has been trained to race the other horses, then he went into the winners enclosure with a special rug and was cheered and patted by every person he passes.
I would say that wasn't the hardest thing to understand.

I am still unsure I really want to believe but part of me can't! I wish there was someone near here that would do a test reading for free that sounds a hoot! But I am not prepared to pay £50 for a stranger to talk to my horse or dog on a phone. I am easily carried away when people tell me positive experiences though until I say it out loud. "I think I will pay £50 for a lady to call my horse for a chat" I think any sane person would.
 
FionaM12 said:
Looking at that lady's website, there are afew things I find hard to accept. For example, the Grand National winner who she quotes as saying, "It was great, it made me famous!"

I don't believe animals have an understanding of how our competitions and shows work. They may enjoy the company of the other animals, the fuss, the day out or the race itself possibly. But I don't see how they'd know who'd "won" or even understand that concept.

As for fame amongst humans... How would a horse know that?
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Why not? The fame is among the horse - a horse can understand how people are reacting to it. If lots of people are reacting to it saying 'Oh look there's so and so', getting excited when they see it, crowds of people saying its name - why wouldn't they understand that?

Similarly to winning - especially wiht racing. In fact - have you ridden many racehorses? They have to understand that racing is about getting to the front to actually be any good - racing and winning is one of the simplest notions to them. Similarly, my showjumpers definitely DEFINITELY know when they've won (when they jump nicely and fast, then end up being at the front of a line up wiht lots of smiling and rewards). They react completely differently to when they're further down the line up (though of course I sitll reward them btw!).

I don't think these are tricky concepts - and even if they are, when there is so much accurate info coming from these communicators it seems a bit bizarre to discount that just becuase you don't believe a horse can understand one concept.
 
2 of mine are like that in the ring, If they win they stand there happily posing, the mare only likes 1st rosettes despite how chuffed I am with being further down the line she will shake her rosette off or not let them put in on her. She also fidgets when she is down the line but loves being first. I agree with the poster who said that some have bog standard lines I have heard of a few back men like that too. "trapped nerve behind the saddle" ...
 
Frumpoon said:
She said my horse had a pain in his sacro-iliac region too...I think she has a bunch of standard 'diagnoses' she comes out with....
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Well darned good guess then considering he hadn't been to Newmarket at that stage. Mine has got sacro illiac dysfunction so she was spot on. 'Back pain' would have been generic.

My horse said loads of things and kept repeating that he wasn't 'naughty' or a 'problem horse' and he quoted all the things he lets you do like 'good with farrier' 'good to travel' and 'I don't at charge her in the paddock'. It was very accurate for me.
 
I still don't get the "winning" thing. I can see that a horse is aware of being fussed, that they often like to run in front of the herd etc. But I think competitiveness and winning shows and races are human concepts.

As for fame, a horse might become aware that there is a change of behaviour in the humans around him. But I don't think he'd understand the concept of fame as such as again, it's an entirely human concept.

Also, I think there's a difference in a horse (possibly) knowing he's done well by being first past the post, and standing in his stable years later reminiscing about that time he won the National and how famous it made him.

What this shows to me is that there are an awful lot of people who think their horses see the world in human terms.
 
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YasandCrystal said:
Well darned good guess then considering he hadn't been to Newmarket at that stage. Mine has got sacro illiac dysfunction so she was spot on. 'Back pain' would have been generic.

My horse said loads of things and kept repeating that he wasn't 'naughty' or a 'problem horse' and he quoted all the things he lets you do like 'good with farrier' 'good to travel' and 'I don't at charge her in the paddock'. It was very accurate for me.
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Ah see she just told me a general pain in the S-I region...she does promise not to diagnose illnesses on her website, she also used to promise not to try and talk to dead or missing animals but she does now - more profitable I assume?
 
FionaM12 said:
I still don't get the "winning" thing. I can see that a horse is aware of being fussed, that they often like to run in front of the herd etc. But I think competitiveness and winning shows and races are human concepts.

As for fame, a horse might become aware that there is a change of behaviour in the humans around him. But I don't think he'd understand the concept of fame as such as again, it's an entirely human concept.

What this shows to me is that there are an awful lot of people who think their horses see the world in human terms.
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I'm completely with you on this, and that any change in behaviour of the horse, is a reflection of the handlers/people around them - not an understanding by the horse that they have 'won'. (hence my previous 'placebo' comments and the fact i have never seen a 'change' in the horses)
 
Hedwards said:
I'm completely with you on this, and that any change in behaviour of the horse, is a reflection of the handlers/people around them - not an understanding by the horse that they have 'won'. (hence my previous 'placebo' comments and the fact i have never seen a 'change' in the horses)
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Yes, I think that's it. If I go up to my dog right now and suddenly make a big fuss of him and tell him he's a good dog, he'll leap around happily and look very pleased with himself.

But he'll have no idea why I did it. :D He'll just enjoy the moment.

The horse which allegedly reminisces about The Grand National would have to know which race it was, know it's a significant race, know he'd "won" it and connect those facts with peoples' later reactions. Not only would he have to make those giant leaps in understanding, he'd have to remember it all years later.

I cannot accept that.
 
FionaM12 said:
The horse which allegedly reminisces about The Grand National would have to know which race it was, know it's a significant race, know he'd "won" it and connect those facts with peoples' later reactions. Not only would he have to make those giant leaps in understanding, he'd have to remember it all years later.
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Agreed - I think it does horses a disservice to think otherwise (because it takes a person's understanding away from their real nature, potentially leading to bad decisions based on that misunderstanding).
 
Morgan123 said:
In fact - have you ridden many racehorses?


DEFINITELY know when they've won (when they jump nicely and fast, then end up being at the front of a line up wiht lots of smiling

I don't think these are tricky concepts
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What does whether we've ridden racehorses have to do with anything? :confused:

Lots of SMILING? Surely that's human language. Since when did we believe horses appreciate smiles?

They're easy concepts for a human. There's no evidence a horse understands them.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I quite agree that people would most likely only pick out the bits of a 'communication' that made sense to them and forget about any other bits. I'm not sure what you mean by 'cold reading'. Don't worry I didn't take offence, you don't know me from Adam and any or all of us could be making all our posts up on any thread.
I can only tell you that the initial reading was done by e-mail from a photo which was provided by e-mail when the AC posted on-line asking for horses to practise on. I re-iterate that NO money has ever changed hands. Sis and AC regularly hold phone conversations, usually for AC to pass on what the horse had said now, apparently she sometimes interrupts when AC is communicating with other horses and has acted as an interpretor, ( I expect this making you even more dubious). There is no reading of body language going on and the AC has never been to our yard or met any of our horses in the flesh.
The things that have convinced me about the veracity have been the off-the-wall things that are very specific to individual horses, like Vardi's numnah, the pony's birthday cake and our JRT. These seem to me to be things which a 'horsey person' who is a charlatan would be unlikely to be able to make up or to be the kind of generalisations which owners who are 'desperate to believe' (as another poster put it) would be able to twist to their particular situation.
There were several other things which the AC put into her original reading which were specific to our horses and were unlikely to have been generalisations but which were not so unusual that no-one could have made them up, although it would have been a massive co-incidence for them to have been made up in relation to our particular horses - how many horses do you know who have been hobbled by the farrier? We know that this had happened and the AC told us about it.
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Thanks for this, and for not taking offence at my skepticism. :o Your story is definitely an intriguing one and I admit that no obvious explanations leap to mind, apart from the AC reading stuff about your horses and situation online - but I presume you can rule that one out too?
 
Horsesgalore said:
What does whether we've ridden racehorses have to do with anything? :confused:

Lots of SMILING? Surely that's human language. Since when did we believe horses appreciate smiles?

They're easy concepts for a human. There's no evidence a horse understands them.
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Oops sorry - I jsut meant, if you ride racehorses or are around them then you can certainly see that they understand racing - they know they have to get to the front! should have worded that better.

Agree re: smiling - there are studies showing dogs understand smiling, would be interested to se if any similar ones about horses. however I think most people would agree that horses understand the moods of people around them. Lots of happy people (particularly rider) is really what I meant - the smiling of course being the expression of that whether or not the horse understands the actual smile itself! I think a horse can know when it's performed well in a competition. With time these links like jumping well/being in front of a line up/rosette/treats/happy owners can certainly build up - it would be strange if they didn't infact, no? Would you disagree?
 
Morgan123 said:
I think a horse can know when it's performed well in a competition. With time these links like jumping well/being in front of a line up/rosette/treats/happy owners can certainly build up - it would be strange if they didn't infact, no? Would you disagree?
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I think the horse knows we're pleased, I doubt it understands the specifics of why. It probably knows when it's been obedient and done as asked, but I don't expect it understands the very human concept of organised competition.

Tbh I think saying it would be "strange" if it didn't make those links, is to not accept it's a horse rather than a person.
 
Horsesgalore said:
I think the horse knows we're pleased, I doubt it understands the specifics of why. It probably knows when it's been obedient and done as asked, but I don't expect it understands the very human concept of organised competition.

Tbh I think saying it would be "strange" if it didn't make those links, is to not accept it's a horse rather than a person.
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But this is just the mechanics of learning theory. E.g. when you do clicker training, you're linking certain things together - the horse is rewarded when it touches the ball (for example). Winning a race is same. Linking getting past all the others, with lots of praise.

Sounds like this is a fundamental difference in how we view horses in which case we'll have to agree ot disagree on that poiny ;-), but I do genuinely think they're capable of that.

Also - I think that discounting everything an otherwise accurate A/C is saying simply becuase you don't believe a horse is capable of one of the things it's saying could be a bit limiting couldn't it?
 
Morgan123 said:
But this is just the mechanics of learning theory. E.g. when you do clicker training, you're linking certain things together - the horse is rewarded when it touches the ball (for example). Winning a race is same. Linking getting past all the others, with lots of praise.

Sounds like this is a fundamental difference in how we view horses in which case we'll have to agree ot disagree on that poiny ;-), but I do genuinely think they're capable of that.

Also - I think that discounting everything an otherwise accurate A/C is saying simply becuase you don't believe a horse is capable of one of the things it's saying could be a bit limiting couldn't it?
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I personally cant connect clicker training to a horse winning a race - clicker training works on an immediate reward for an action, however a horse winning a race will get lots of patts from its jockey initially (as do a lot of the horses in the race), then make its way back with the other horses to the collecting ring/winners enclosure before it gets the 'applause' and reward - and I believe most horses when coming back in from a race will get a certain amount of reward, as well as seeing and hearing all the people in the crowd... I cant see how a horse can ever 'know' or 'understand' that it has won something
 
Interesting - I would have said it's in the atmosphere and the ongoing positivity. Maybe I'm wrong (obviously I don't think so cos this is my opinion but still ;-)!) but when I finish an SJ round, or an XC, or dressage test, or whatever - my horse having done something BIG well (I do see your point re: clicker training being small move/instant reward) - the positive effect for the horse lasts ages, i.e. he looks pleased with himself, I am acting positively toward him (that will last probably the whole way home, when he gets an extra nice tea back at home, etc etc). Of course, I am anthropomorphasising becuase I've said he looks 'pleased' with himself - but whether or not you think a horse cna feel 'pleased wiht himself' I don't see any reason that doing something big well can't link with a big/ongoing reward, and be understood as such. They do have memories and remember things, and 'the bigger the effort the bigger the reward' isn't a massive concept to grasp either? I do see others disagree but i certainly allow my horses that much intelligence.

Oh something interesting I just thought of while we're philosophising about this - I find that in the horse world people seem to delimit what positive things they think horses understand (e.g. the conept of winning), but actually if you think about it negatively then it's a lot more accepted to be understood. E.g. if your horse had a bad experience at a competition - say, i don't know, it was a wuss and got a big scare in an indoor school because of a loud bang or feedback from the sound system or something and freaked out and the rider fell off - then you may well expect it to be shaken up all the way home and that evening/act more nervy for longer/make assosciations for next time it came to that situation, wouldn't you? Similarly with being naughty? I'm just pondering here, would be interested to know what others think!
 
Morgan123 said:
Oops sorry - I jsut meant, if you ride racehorses or are around them then you can certainly see that they understand racing - they know they have to get to the front! should have worded that better.

Agree re: smiling - there are studies showing dogs understand smiling, would be interested to se if any similar ones about horses. however I think most people would agree that horses understand the moods of people around them. Lots of happy people (particularly rider) is really what I meant - the smiling of course being the expression of that whether or not the horse understands the actual smile itself! I think a horse can know when it's performed well in a competition. With time these links like jumping well/being in front of a line up/rosette/treats/happy owners can certainly build up - it would be strange if they didn't infact, no? Would you disagree?
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I agree horses know some facial expressions.

If I look a bit down, my old mare will 'groom' my tummy which makes me laugh, when I laugh she then flips her head up with her ears pricked and does it again, has been doing for years. When I smile at Beau she pricks her ears and if I cry she actually lets me cuddle her (very non tactile normally) so I think they do know a bit. Racers definatly know they should be in front, well, the good ones anyway! And it's not just horse nature to be in front when fleeing as my mare knows to stay behind on hacks unless I tell her it's ok to go. Maybe it's learnt behaviour but if so then what's to say they don't learn to 'read' our expressions? Body language is a huge part of horse communication so surely it's only natural that they would try in order to make some sense of the strage animal that brings carrotts!
 
to my slight shame;) - in my poverty stricken student days, i used to do tarot readings for hard cash - i have NO physic abilities at all - but am good at cold readings, understanding body language & have some basic understanding of human pyschology - i am sure that there were people i read for who believed i had some special powers
HOWEVER - a couple of years ago - someone was training to be an AC & was looking for pets to practise on - i dont know her, she doesnt know my horse & was simply sent a photo - she told me that rubys' happiest memory was being given an ice cream - it had happened some yrs before when i & my small child were out hacking & we stopped at an ice cream van - i GENUINELY do not know how she knew this
 
Hedwards said:
I personally cant connect clicker training to a horse winning a race - clicker training works on an immediate reward for an action, however a horse winning a race will get lots of patts from its jockey initially (as do a lot of the horses in the race), then make its way back with the other horses to the collecting ring/winners enclosure before it gets the 'applause' and reward - and I believe most horses when coming back in from a race will get a certain amount of reward, as well as seeing and hearing all the people in the crowd... I cant see how a horse can ever 'know' or 'understand' that it has won something
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Totally agree with this. Just because an animal can learn the action/reward mechanism does not in any way show it understands the very complex idea of winning a competition.

I believe that thinking a horse shares our human obsessions with competing, celebrity and fame or even has the faintest ideas about those concepts is to fail to even begin to be able to understand how a horse sees the world.
 
rubysmum said:
she told me that rubys' happiest memory was being given an ice cream - it had happened some yrs before when i & my small child were out hacking & we stopped at an ice cream van - i GENUINELY do not know how she knew this
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That is so sweet if she really did know this and it wasn't a lucky guess. Having said that, I don't think that many horses would like ice cream. Mine certainly don't so not a common occurance. It would be lovely to think that horses did have the ability to think back on happy times. We know for sure they have very good memories. I just wonder if they are able to actually ponder them, or whether they are not simply stimulated by something happening?
 
Mrs B said:
"personally i feel that AC and psychics are a load of twaddle.

however people need to take comfort where they can, if that is meeting and having dealings with these people then fair enough, that is their choice and their own money they are spending - not mine." - Dancing Queen

"I think that they would have to be the last resort, when your own mind and rationalisation has has been lost. I cannot say that I would NEVER use one as I have never been in that situation. So I suppose that I am open minded on the subject." - Lionman

Oooh! Close run competition for most patronising posts of the evening, Ladies & Gentlemen! :D
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Yes, and you win.
 
Wagtail said:
That is so sweet if she really did know this and it wasn't a lucky guess. Having said that, I don't think that many horses would like ice cream. Mine certainly don't so not a common occurance. It would be lovely to think that horses did have the ability to think back on happy times. We know for sure they have very good memories. I just wonder if they are able to actually ponder them, or whether they are not simply stimulated by something happening?
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Mine love an ice cream :D Mine happily eat anything to be honest... Look at it another way - most people couldn't prove that their horse has never had ice cream - even if they've owned them all their life, it's possible a passer by happened to give them one in the field (though that would be unlikely / unwise!) and if the owner then tries to offer her ice cream to see if she likes it, and she doesn't, it could just be the wrong brand :p
 
fburton said:
Thanks for this, and for not taking offence at my skepticism. :o Your story is definitely an intriguing one and I admit that no obvious explanations leap to mind, apart from the AC reading stuff about your horses and situation online - but I presume you can rule that one out too?
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Yes of course!
When the AC first made contact she told us a lot of things that only we and other family members knew about the history of several of our horses. We don't actually put many details on-line, as we don't particularly want to be identifiable by strangers.
As I said previously, we certainly hadn't advertised the fact that we were storing a dead dog in a plastic barrel in our yard, I'm not sure the neighbours would have appreciated that!

Just as an additional note to the arguing about racehorses, do none of these people remember Red Rum thinking he was racing when he went to do public appearances? And whatever explanation these people can find for that, Ginger McCann certainly thought that was what happening.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Just as an additional note to the arguing about racehorses, do none of these people remember Red Rum thinking he was racing when he went to do public appearances? And whatever explanation these people can find for that, Ginger McCann certainly thought that was what happening.
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Hmm. We would be able to tell RR was excited, but how could anyone tell he thought he was racing?

I can well believe a horse would recognise racing tracks as places that exciting things have happened to them. My old horse used to get very excited when he recognised a place he'd previously had a good gallop too.

But that still doesn't mean they grasp the concept of "winning".
 
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