ester
Not slacking multitasking
You can buy fox urine on amazon.
Animal welfare bill
- Thread starter Sanversera
- Start date
palo1
Well-Known Member
In animal welfare terms, acquiring fox urine should be illegal in the UK: it is an appallingly cruel 'trade'. It is, I understand, mostly acquired as a cat deterrent by keen gardeners.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
I think you do not realise how tenacious a fox can be. I have had a fox break in to my rabbit hutch right beside my patio doors. They can remove wire, dig under runs and will stake out areas so they know what the risks are. I have been lucky to have seen them in the wild as well in my garden, yes and they got in my enclosed hen run which was on a hard standing.
If they were bigger they would be a real risk to humans because they are so smart, they a predator that weigh up risks I have seen a fox sit on a wall and watch hounds work.
They are still being killed, I have seen a fox in a trap waiting to be shot, or they get shot by lamping, its just there is less noise about it.At some point they are going to need to cull more deer, because in the last five years herds are getting larger in even built up areas, they even go in to town at night.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Well, quite, but as I posted earlier on this thread the Countryside Alliance are still happy to declare that the scent used by most foxhound packs is based on fox urine.
Countryside Alliance guide to trail-hunting
The Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Hunting provides a guide to trail-hunting.
www.countryside-alliance.org
Q: WHAT SCENT IS USED FOR THE TRAIL?
A: Most foxhound packs continue to use an ethically sourced quarry-based scent based on fox urine. The hounds have been traditionally bred to follow this scent and they know what they are seeking. Usually this, rather than an artificial scent, prevents offering the hounds an element of choice which could lead them to deviate onto the scent of other quarry species.Answers on a postcard, please, re how to ethically source fox urine
.moosea
Well-Known Member
The blunt answer to this is to enclose your captive animals better, especially as you seem to understand them so well.
Of course foxes are still being killed.
Most people I have spoken to agree that being shot seems prefrable to being chased until too exhausted and then torn to bits by dogs.
It's 2026. Hunting is no longer seen as a sport by the majority, but rather a barbaric act that belongs in history with bear baiting and dog fighting.
Trail hunts have had 20 years of leway to prepare, but they haven't.
Now it will be banned.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
The hutch was joiner built, not the commercial flimsy one. The only reason urban foxes do not take more domestic pets IMO is that people feed them and there is enough food to scavenge, because most hutches sold are tacked together thin ply. When they are feeding cubs they get bolder and they have in the past dismembered a kitten in the afternoon in the stables beside the house.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is any ethical way to acquire fox urine and the CA are bonkers to perpetuate the fox urine narrative. I don't know any hunt using this though huntsman's urine is used as is shot fox marinade.Well, quite, but as I posted earlier on this thread the Countryside Alliance are still happy to declare that the scent used by most foxhound packs is based on fox urine.
Countryside Alliance guide to trail-hunting
The Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Hunting provides a guide to trail-hunting.
Q: WHAT SCENT IS USED FOR THE TRAIL?
A: Most foxhound packs continue to use an ethically sourced quarry-based scent based on fox urine. The hounds have been traditionally bred to follow this scent and they know what they are seeking. Usually this, rather than an artificial scent, prevents offering the hounds an element of choice which could lead them to deviate onto the scent of other quarry species.
Answers on a postcard, please, re how to ethically source fox urine
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Foxes are wild animals and will always act like wild animals. Their feeding habits are irrelevant to the argument of illegal hunting bc this is not a discussion for the pros and cons of culling.
Hunting foxes with dogs is illegal and has been for 20 years. Hunts blatantly breaking that law is why trail hunting has found itself banned.
Other blood sports may well find themselves under threat in an evolving world, I don’t see that as a bad thing.
Hunting foxes with dogs is illegal and has been for 20 years. Hunts blatantly breaking that law is why trail hunting has found itself banned.
Other blood sports may well find themselves under threat in an evolving world, I don’t see that as a bad thing.
SEL
Well-Known Member
having seen hounds (hunt staff on foot) clearing foxes from a lambing area pre ban the kill is quick and clean - far more so than shooting.
Plus poisoning them has huge knock on issues and that's more the route to cull than shooting.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I think the general public have no idea that killing foxes by other than hunting with dogs is still happening. They think they are saving the sweet fluffy fox but they are not. I would like to know if other methods are killing them humanely, I.e. does it take one or multiple shots? Do foxes end up dying slowly if the shot doesn’t kill immediately and the fox gets away….
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
There are certainly examples of foxes getting shot but not killed. Where we used to live, I remember seeing one fox with a missing leg and badly infected wound.
Most people who go lamping are good shots, but it's not 100% guaranteed to result in instant death by any means. So in my experience, most foxes who are shot at do get killed; probably most, but not all, are clean deaths. There have been a few cases where people (including some farmers) have shot foxes with a shotgun, which is unlikely to kill unless it's at close range - but could well cause some very nasty injuries that could result in a slow death. In spite of this, shooting at foxes with a shotgun is not illegal.
The argument that foxhunting was a good method of fox control never really rang true to me as the numbers killed were nowhere near the numbers eliminated through shooting (lamping). My neighbour had a rifle and went lamping, it wasn't unusual to shoot 20+ in a single night.
One thing that can't be argued with is that if a fox was caught by hounds it wasn't going to survive, whereas a small minority of foxes do survive being shot (and no doubt do suffer).
I totally understand that people will argue that being chased, caught and killed is totally abhorrent. But being shot and suffering a lingering death is no more humane.
There isn't a totally humane answer to this. I'm certainly not arguing for the re-introduction of foxhunting with hounds; it's not something I ever did, or would want to do.
But we should be aware that shooting is not the totally humane and painless solution that some think it is.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Yup, when I take my dog out working the prey is dead before it hits the ground.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I’ve also never been hunting but did go what was called drag hunting when I was much younger and that was fun..I’ve never seen a fox being dispatched by hounds or being shot so can’t really judge from first hand knowledge but I’m sure the likes of Packham and his buddies don’t realise that foxes are being killed, so the ban isn’t saving them which is the impression given, it was always a class thing not an animal protection thing. There is so much cruelty going on in this country that never gets spoken about, perhaps Mr Packham could put his energies into other things and forget about ‘the toffs ‘
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Well, if CP doesn't realise foxes are killed by other means he may well think that it is an animal welfare thing. But I imagine he knows perfectly well that they are in the same way that I do, despite not being involved in it myself. It's harder to argue against shooting for 'pest control' (whether or not it's done well or is even justifiable) than it is to argue that they shouldn't be pursued across miles of countryside in a generally festive atmosphere that in most areas has very little relevance for pest control. But people may well start arguing against it if it's seen to be gratuitous and anti-welfare.
Nancykitt
Well-Known Member
Chris Packham is aware that foxes are being killed - I seem to remember an argument from a few years ago because the RSPB was involved in the culling of foxes in areas where scarce ground-nesting birds were being threatened. A difficult one for him because he's supposed to be an enthusiastic birder, but there's a clear conflict when it comes to foxes taking scarce ground-nesting birds.
We've seen some appalling examples of cruelty from hunts breaking the law, but some people don't realise that banning trail hunting won't stop terriermen (some of whom are behaving badly), it won't stop lamping and it won't stop farmers shooing at foxes with shotguns, where there is a risk of maiming but not killing the animal. All these things will remain perfectly legal. As far as I know it remains legal to drive a fox to a bird of prey, although I don't personally know of any packs that do this.
It's clear from the Facebook that many, many people honestly believe that this is all about protecting foxes. This is nonsense. Foxes are being culled in considerable numbers and these people don't even know about it. Mr Packham does know about it but he focuses almost exclusively on 'rich people on horses', which I find a bit disingenuous.