Animals v Humans

Tiffany

Tiffany

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Sometimes when things get tough people with animals decide to have them PTS despite them being healthy. I strongly believe that if you have animals they are your responsibility and I don't see any difference between animals and people and I'm sure even if it was legal in UK to have humans PTS people wouldn't?

I'm not looking for an argument and luckily I've not been in a situation where I either couldn't cope physically or financially with my animals. Having said that, it goes against my personal views to have a healthy animal put to sleep.

No I'm not a tree hugger :)
 
Totally agree.
Experienced this when a woman at my yard had her 14 year old dressage horse pts, as she was 'giving up horses'. Other than slight ringbone, in very early stages, the horse was the picture of health.
It took the vet literally 45 mins to catch it to pts, as it was galloping around the field.

Made me sick to my stomach.
 
That's the sort of thing that upsets me - would they put healthy children to sleep if the going got tough. No of course not!
 
My horses are with me for life! My daughter's outgrown pony is on loan to my old yard and will come back to me when they finish with her!
I can't understand people who sell or PTS horses rather than give them the retirement that they deserve!
 
I'm not sure what I think to be honest, but at least with PTS, the animal will never know suffering. If anything happens to change someones circumstances, then there can be worse things than death.

I'd rather PTS a healthy animal, than see a healthy animal go through sales and end up somewhere like Amersham!

If it was legal, I dread to think how many possibly would have children PTS, once *some* parents learn how difficult it can be, looking after them.

If the worst were to happen, I've made arrangements for my ponies, so I know they'll be safe.

Not sure if I've managed to say what I meant here in my waffling but I'm now off to bed with lack of sleep :)
 
There are thousands more horses in this country than homes (and that's all homes, not just good ones), so I don't see any solution other than pts a great number (and reducing breeding, but that wouldn't have an immediate effect anyway). Some of these will have physical or behavioural problems, but plenty will be healthy. Is it really any different from having other healthy animals killed, other than they are unlikely to enter the human food chain?

My animals are with me for life, and provisions have been made in the case of them outliving me. I don't demand everyone makes the same decision, and I don't think pts is the 'worst' thing that can happen.
 
It's a personal choice I would never judge anyone on this, but I do think there are far worse things that can happen to a horse.
Personally I would have no issue with euthanasia for humans being legal I think in this horses are luckier than we are.
 
In all honesty, we wish we could have put my Nan to sleep. I've told this story a few times, so I'll just keep it short. She suffered a huge amount of pain for months :( I wouldn't let any animal suffer for that long, so why should we let a human, when it was clear she wouldn't get better?
 
I agree !!!

A friend had her horse pts yesterday :( and the knacker man actually was called to pts a healthy horse,,, and refused to do it, and took it home.

If you have a fit and healthy animal why would you PTS, I understand the feeding your family first, and they do not know, ... But can we ever know for sure that they do not know, if healthy and well, why not loan or sell? Xxx
 
Tiffany said:
That's the sort of thing that upsets me - would they put healthy children to sleep if the going got tough. No of course not!
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:rolleyes:

So far as I'm concerned, my horses are with me for life... I've never sold on or rehomed any animal that I wasn't fostering for a short term...

BUT, if I had to choose between being able to provide and assure the welfare of my children and keeping an animal compromised that ability; there would be no debate, no time needed for thought and no hesitation...
 
Tiffany said:
That's the sort of thing that upsets me - would they put healthy children to sleep if the going got tough. No of course not!
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IMO there is just no comparison between horses and children and I love my horses but they are not people.and the horse in the example was not healthy it had a medical issue that horses owner took that desision I would not interfer with their right to do so.
 
It worries me that this thought is all too common.

I know of one person who owns a lovely 13 yr old mare with a touch of Arthritis, unfortunately the extra care required has impacted on the owners social life and the owner appears to be looking for reasons linked to the Arthritis to have the mare PTS.

The mare if given gentle exercise, not left out in the cold, wet weather, has supplements and has a bit more attentive care does very well and there is no reason for her not to lead a 'normal' (of course i dont mean XC and showjumping) life and certaintly does not need to be put to sleep. Sadly the owner is looking for the 'easy' way out
 
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I don't think you can compare a horses life to that of a humans, and in my view comparing them to children is just ridiculous!

Horses are animals not human beings. I am not for one moment saying they do not deserve to live or should be PTS on a whim but an owner should for what ever reason be able to decide what happens to their horse.

As others have said, there are more horses than homes, I appauld owners who take the decision to PTS a troublesome horse when selling would be difficult rather than sell it on or take to sale. We here of too many welfare cases, PTS at least offers the horse actual rest rather than an uncertain future.

If we was not allowed to PTS the horse industry would be in even more mess. Poor suffering horses every where.

To compare the two is just childish in my opinion.
 
yaffsimone1 said:
I know of one person who owns a lovely 13 yr old mare with a touch of Arthritis, unfortunately the extra care required has impacted on the owners social life and the owner appears to be looking for reasons linked to the Arthritis to have the mare PTS.
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But a social life alone having bearing on such a decision is somewhat different to finding life is so tough you're having trouble coping with family responsibilities let alone the time/finances/emotional aspect of caring for a horse with any health or age implications...
 
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Sadly, I think that people who feel it is unethical or 'wrong' to put a healthy horse down are partially to blame for there being so many ill treated horses around today :(

Why can people not see that 'rehoming' is not always an easy option? Over the years I have both been in this position myself, as well as having seen others have to make similar decisions. It's never a nice thing to have to do, but when you buy a horse, you take on full responsibility for it, and if you cannot guarantee that horse a happy, healthy future, then there are far worse fates than being PTS in their own field, surrounded by the people who love them.

We had an old boy who'd been in our family since he was six months old. He actually belonged to another family member, but became our responsibility when his owner went through a very bad divorce - it wasn't a problem, as we had a lovely smallholding where we fully expected him to be able to live out the rest of his days in uninterrupted luxury. Unfortunately, when this horse was twenty five, my parents then split up; my dad did a disappearing act, and we had to sell everything and move into rented. We just about scrabbled the money together to keep Ellie at livery with friends, but there was no way could we afford retirement livery for the old lad, too, especially as he technically did not belong to us. His owner, still recovering from her own divorce, could not afford to keep him at full livery, and having made a few tentative enquiries with the Blue Cross and some other sanctuaries, the overwhelming advice was to have him PTS. Yes, he was an elderly horse, but he was fit and well and loving life. But we could not have loaned him out - aside from his age being an obvious issue, he had a couple of old injuries that meant he'd have only been able to be in very light work. Added to this the upheaval of moving him again...it just didnt seem fair. So, he had one last summer knee-deep in the meadow grass with Ellie, and at the end, he was PTS. It still breaks our hearts to this day, but ultimately I think it was the right decision.

Conversely, friends of ours were miss-sold a young horse who turned out to be a complete nutcase - and a dangerous one, at that. He was so dangerous that they used to have to cordon off the lane leading to the field where he was turned out, and simply let him free from the stable - otherwise he'd kick their heads in in the gateway. Under saddle, he was an absolute nightmare too, and the day he went beserk, somersaulted out over the top of the horsebox rear doors and tumbled down the ramp was the day they decided enough was enough. But rather than do the decent thing by the horse - whom even the vet said was psychologically unstable - they phoned one of those dodgy 'We buy any horse' ads, and he was taken away in a cattle trailer to an unknown fate. For the money they got for him - £600 if I recall (when he'd cost 5-6k a few months previously) - they should have simply had him put down.

My girl is seventeen; I've had her since she was just turned five. If anything happened to me, my family know that I would rather her be PTS than passed on, even if she's still fit and well. She has many quirks, quirks that I adore her for, but quirks that could very easily be misunderstood and dealt with in a way that could dramatically change her character, and as an older horse, I do not feel it would be fair to her.

As for the 'people vs animals' argument....well, don't get me started. Had it been legal to put my nan out of her misery three years ago, there's not one member of my family who would not have gladly done so. There are far, far worse fates than death, and the sooner everyone, even those with good intentions, realise this, the better.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
I don't think you can compare a horses life to that of a humans, and in my view comparing them to children is just ridiculous!
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You have to understand, that some people just can't bond with humans, like they do with animals. Some people (like myself) would rather have animals than a family of their own. That's why I really don't want children, I just don't think I could cope and I'd be a terrible mother. I'd rather have horses that I can cherish. To me, horses are my friends and I see them as equals. I don't place myself higher than animals.
 
rhino said:
There are thousands more horses in this country than homes (and that's all homes, not just good ones), so I don't see any solution other than pts a great number (and reducing breeding, but that wouldn't have an immediate effect anyway). Some of these will have physical or behavioural problems, but plenty will be healthy. Is it really any different from having other healthy animals killed, other than they are unlikely to enter the human food chain?

My animals are with me for life, and provisions have been made in the case of them outliving me. I don't demand everyone makes the same decision, and I don't think pts is the 'worst' thing that can happen.
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Hi I think I did say animals in OP rather than horses. I agree breeding of most animals should be reduced.
 
Nah said:
You have to understand, that some people just can't bond with humans, like they do with animals. Some people (like myself) would rather have animals than a family of their own. That's why I really don't want children, I just don't think I could cope and I'd be a terrible mother. I'd rather have horses that I can cherish. To me, horses are my friends and I see them as equals. I don't place myself higher than animals.
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But that's different and perfectly fine so long as you're solo, fit, healthy and able... But if you did have the responsibility of a child or even a vulnerable adult or a partner who'd had a sudden health issue that changed the family/financial dynamics completely - priorities are and should be very different... :)
 
yaffsimone1 said:
I know of one person who owns a lovely 13 yr old mare with a touch of Arthritis, unfortunately the extra care required has impacted on the owners social life and the owner appears to be looking for reasons linked to the Arthritis to have the mare PTS.
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Ok, so the 'impact on social life' argument is bang out of order - I totally agree with you. No horse should be put down because the owner would prefer to be going out spending money on getting hammered instead of caring for the animal they have taken responsibility for. However...

yaffsimone1 said:
The mare if given gentle exercise, not left out in the cold, wet weather, has supplements and has a bit more attentive care does very well and there is no reason for her not to lead a 'normal' (of course i dont mean XC and showjumping) life and certaintly does not need to be put to sleep. Sadly the owner is looking for the 'easy' way out
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...realistically, at thirteen, this little mare would surely have very limited options. I would rather see the owner have her put down humanely, than see her be passed on to someone who leaves her out to get cold, or cannot/will not buy her the supplements she needs, or think that she's actually ok after all and take her XC....and so on. You hear it happen so often, horses being loaned or sold on with provisos that are then ignored.

Regardless of an owner's reasons for wanting to part with a horse, sometimes I do truly think that being put down is the kindest option.

Interestingly I only started to feel this way when someone I knew had her home bred seven year old TB put down after a recurring tendon injury. He'd have been ok to lightly hack but never more than that; even a hooly around the field with his friends would see him hopping for a day or two. And he was a lovely bright little thing, fully of life and bounce - definitely not the kind of horse who'd be happy to retire to the fields at seven. She looked at him in the field one day and simply said, 'He's just not himself anymore.' The next day, he was put down. He wasn't 'unhealthy' - far from it - but she knew he had no real future, and she did the best thing for him.
 
Nah said:
In all honesty, we wish we could have put my Nan to sleep. I've told this story a few times, so I'll just keep it short. She suffered a huge amount of pain for months :( I wouldn't let any animal suffer for that long, so why should we let a human, when it was clear she wouldn't get better?
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^^^ totally agree^^^ but I'm talking about all the healthy animals that are PTS
 
I do understand that some people can't bond with humans Nah but that doesn't mean that horses should be kept a live at any cost if their future is uncertain. Just being a live isn't enough.

Horses are animals at the end of the day, although we would like to think they care about us in the same way we do about them they don't. They are animals.

PS. I don't have children either. Much rather have an animal than those stinky creatures :)
 
yaffsimone1 said:
The mare if given gentle exercise, not left out in the cold, wet weather, has supplements and has a bit more attentive care does very well and there is no reason for her not to lead a 'normal' (of course i dont mean XC and showjumping) life and certaintly does not need to be put to sleep. Sadly the owner is looking for the 'easy' way out
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I find it rather counter intuitive that those so against pts are the ones who so often refer to it as an 'easy option'

I have never found making the decision to pts, and following it through, to be easy. Not in the slightest...

And in the above circumstances, how many people realistically want to take on a teenage horse with a progressive disease. Not that many, at a guess.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
I don't think you can compare a horses life to that of a humans, and in my view comparing them to children is just ridiculous!

Horses are animals not human beings. I am not for one moment saying they do not deserve to live or should be PTS on a whim but an owner should for what ever reason be able to decide what happens to their horse.

As others have said, there are more horses than homes, I appauld owners who take the decision to PTS a troublesome horse when selling would be difficult rather than sell it on or take to sale. We here of too many welfare cases, PTS at least offers the horse actual rest rather than an uncertain future.

If we was not allowed to PTS the horse industry would be in even more mess. Poor suffering horses every where.

To compare the two is just childish in my opinion.
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You are entitled to your opinion although I'm not talking about sick animals and if you think I'm childish then that's not a problem. However, I'm talking about healthy animals where owners decide they no longer want or can't be bothered to put the time and commitment in needed to care for any animal.
I understand animals and humans are different although that doesn't mean animals don't feel or sense things.
 
I do not see humans as superior to animals, in my eyes everything is equal. To some extents I believe that animals should be above us however at the end of the day the human race has taken upon itself to control almost every aspect of the world including sadly the breeding of animals for food, money, clothing etc...

I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep, but unfortunately that is what society and generally the human race has resorted to, due to over breeding and lack of responsibility

Maybe only if the human race controlled their reproduction so readily as they do with animals then far less animals would need to be bred and then killed as a consequence.

Just my opinion on the whole animals vs humans saga!
 
I'm finding this thread very interesting. So how many of you have the monetary means to keep an extremely high maintenance horse at say six or seven years of age that may well be lame for the rest of its life and the cost of keeping, suppliments, vet, farrier is increasing exponentially each month beacuse of various veterinary issues that would make selling it impossible. Would you get bank loans, credit card debt to pay the bills knowing that your wage wouldnt cover the repayments??? yet you watch the horse each day canter round the field and whinny at you like everythings fine? Or would you sell at the sales/dealer knowing that the horse will end up with the worst life imaginable before being PTS anyway?
 
ImmyS said:
I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep, but unfortunately that is what society and generally the human race has resorted to, due to over breeding and lack of responsibility
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Are you a strict vegan? Do you not own any leather products?
 
ImmyS said:
I do not see humans as superior to animals, in my eyes everything is equal. To some extents I believe that animals should be above us however at the end of the day the human race has taken upon itself to control almost every aspect of the world including sadly the breeding of animals for food, money, clothing etc...

I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep, but unfortunately that is what society and generally the human race has resorted to, due to over breeding and lack of responsibility

Maybe only if the human race controlled their reproduction so readily as they do with animals then far less animals would need to be bred and then killed as a consequence.

Just my opinion on the whole animals vs humans saga!
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Controlling the human population....!! Had a very very interesting debate when I suggested we could phase in no child allowance after child no 2....no government restrictions or laws, just if you want more children, you pay for them and not the state.

Just know so many people who stopped at 2 as they could not afford more.
 
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