Animals v Humans

I do not know anyone who would put down an animal because they couldn't be bothered to look after it! People who are that lazy couldn't be bothered to arrange all the necessities involved.

What has promted you to post this thread, do you have an anecdote to share?
 
rhino said:
Are you a strict vegan? Do you not own any leather products?
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Nope I am not a strict vegan, I do eat meat regularly, however I personally do not own leather. I do not agree with people being vegan, at the end of the day we are animals. Animals eat other animals right? I think humans have become so far detached from nature they forget this fundamental fact of life. Throughout history people have hunted for food, back to cave men..It is just unfortunate that our way of gaining food from animals is done in a mass produced way with extreme poor treatment and abuse in many areas of the 'industry' .
 
rhino said:
I find it rather counter intuitive that those so against pts are the ones who so often refer to it as an 'easy option'

I have never found making the decision to pts, and following it through, to be easy. Not in the slightest...

And in the above circumstances, how many people realistically want to take on a teenage horse with a progressive disease. Not that many, at a guess.
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I've had dogs, cats, hamsters, guinea pigs and a horse PTS when they were ill and seffering.My last horse had an accident out hacking althoug was perfectly fit enough to live out in the field and be lead out with another horse although couldn't be ridden. I was advised by other people to PTS because she couldn't be ridden :confused: That wasn't a good enough reason for me so I kept her until she suddenly became ill and a decision had to be made there and then to PTS. It broke my heart but she was suffering which I didn't want.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
I do not know anyone who would put down an animal because they couldn't be bothered to look after it! People who are that lazy couldn't be bothered to arrange all the necessities involved.

What has promted you to post this thread, do you have an anecdote to share?
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I posted it because there have been a number of threads on here and another forum where people seem to be looking for approval to PTS a healthy animal for no justified reason IMO
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
I do understand that some people can't bond with humans Nah but that doesn't mean that horses should be kept a live at any cost if their future is uncertain. Just being a live isn't enough.

Horses are animals at the end of the day, although we would like to think they care about us in the same way we do about them they don't. They are animals.

PS. I don't have children either. Much rather have an animal than those stinky creatures :)
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I made the decision not to have children because quite frankly I didn't want the responsibilty on caring for them and bringing them up
 
Some of the replies on here are so naive its untrue! If only life were the little bubble where you can "go without" so that your child and your horse can still have wonderful lives... Life isn't like that. It can be really hard.

Last year I was injured and unable to do my job or earn my usual salary. We used probably £10k of savings just keeping everything afloat. All from an accident in the stable with a horse. We were getting to crisis point when I could go back to work, all the savings were gone, we sold the outgrown pony, and had a few thousand on credit cards. Thankfully I could get back to work and things sorted out. We have our own stables and 20 acres, and even then it wouldn't have been simple - both horses are unable to live out without being liable to get laminitis in summer or mud rash in winter (certainly couldn't afford to get the field drained)..

The year before a good friend of mine got cancer. She died after a year of suffering and nine months of that in hospital. We rallied round to help with the horse, and found him a loaner, but it was hard. Her family struggled like mad. When she died they got lots of money, but the insurance didn't pay until she was dead, and while she was in hospital she couldn't do her job and nor could her husband properly as he was trying to keep her kids lives going. The horse, unfortunately quite rightly, was not the highest concern. She was lucky she had friends to help - he had just been diagnosed with navicular and couldn't be ridden..

The person in the thread that probably prompted this thread is going through a divorce, about to lose her home perhaps, and struggling to keep her head afloat.

My point is, you never know whats around the corner, or what you would have to do. In my twenties I would have probably said the same, that my horses would never go. In my 40s, with mortgages and family, I can only say that I hope I will never be in the position that they will have to go. But I don't know and I can't guarantee it.

I think some of the opinions on here are probably hurtful and rude to those that have had to let horses go/may have to.
 
ImmyS said:
I do not see humans as superior to animals, in my eyes everything is equal.

I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep,
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ImmyS said:
I do not agree with people being vegan, at the end of the day we are animals. Animals eat other animals right?
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So it's ok to kill things as long as we eat them? Should we start eating horses then, would that make it easier? :confused:

Agree that no animal should suffer abuse or neglect, but humane euthanasia is not a welfare issue.
 
Tiffany said:
Sometimes when things get tough people with animals decide to have them PTS despite them being healthy.
<snip>
I'm not looking for an argument and luckily I've not been in a situation where I either couldn't cope physically or financially with my animals.
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Tiffany said:
However, I'm talking about healthy animals where owners decide they no longer want or can't be bothered to put the time and commitment in needed to care for any animal.
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Um...isn't the OP about owners finding things are suddenly tough and then PTS being part of their decision making process?

There is a substantial difference with facing [unexpected] tough circumstances and just deciding you don't like your horse any more and finding the handiest gun... ie, IMO a substantial difference between your OP and what you now say you're talking about...
 
And that is your choice Tiffany but I could not afford to keep a horse that I couldn't ride. I love horses, I work with horses but if anything happened that meant I could no longer ride my horse I WOULD PTS.

I own horses because I love riding, I don't have my own farm or land to be able to have a herd of non working animals, I couldn't afford to keep two at the moment so unfortunately if I wanted to keep riding I would have to PTS.
 
Tiffany said:
No I'd go without
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This was in response to a comment about letting your child go without v a horse...

If you had a child you could not go without a roof over your head, food in the cupboards, using utilities, maintaining your own health and generally needing to put the time in with said child... Your own expenses are pretty redundant when you have a child and most cannot be 'gone without'...

rhino said:
So it's ok to kill things as long as we eat them? Should we start eating horses then, would that make it easier? :confused:
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:D Maybe it shouldn't...but that did make me chuckle...
 
Because there are worse fates than death for a horse.

If OH and I lost everything tomorrow we could easily sell the broodmares and youngstock, my eventer could be sold either to the lady that rides him or to another owner/rider.

But that would leave us with two donkeys, a pony and an eventer retired through injury. Although all are field sound and not in pain, none are fit for work, and would only be suitable and companions for very specific homes. If those homes couldn't be found I'd rather PTS than have them in unsuitable homes where they'd be miserable/frequently passed on/neglected/fraudulently misrepresented as ride-able.

As an aside, I'm a doctor (pediatrician) and would in the right circumstances advocate euthanasia - I know that personally I would rather die in a quick and painless manner than drag it out for painful and undignified weeks/months/years. I have discussed my views on this with my husband as we both agree there are certain conditions that if diagnosed with we would both consider suicide.
 
Honey08 said:
Some of the replies on here are so naive its untrue! If only life were the little bubble where you can "go without" so that your child and your horse can still have wonderful lives... Life isn't like that. It can be really hard.

Last year I was injured and unable to do my job or earn my usual salary. We used probably £10k of savings just keeping everything afloat. All from an accident in the stable with a horse. We were getting to crisis point when I could go back to work, all the savings were gone, we sold the outgrown pony, and had a few thousand on credit cards. Thankfully I could get back to work and things sorted out. We have our own stables and 20 acres, and even then it wouldn't have been simple - both horses are unable to live out without being liable to get laminitis in summer or mud rash in winter (certainly couldn't afford to get the field drained)..

The year before a good friend of mine got cancer. She died after a year of suffering and nine months of that in hospital. We rallied round to help with the horse, and found him a loaner, but it was hard. Her family struggled like mad. When she died they got lots of money, but the insurance didn't pay until she was dead, and while she was in hospital she couldn't do her job and nor could her husband properly as he was trying to keep her kids lives going. The horse, unfortunately quite rightly, was not the highest concern. She was lucky she had friends to help - he had just been diagnosed with navicular and couldn't be ridden..

The person in the thread that probably prompted this thread is going through a divorce, about to lose her home perhaps, and struggling to keep her head afloat.

My point is, you never know whats around the corner, or what you would have to do. In my twenties I would have probably said the same, that my horses would never go. In my 40s, with mortgages and family, I can only say that I hope I will never be in the position that they will have to go. But I don't know and I can't guarantee it.

I think some of the opinions on here are probably hurtful and rude to those that have had to let horses go/may have to.
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This post was prompted by a conversation I had today with someone who's talking about having a 4th horse put to sleep in 3 years because and I quote ' It's a nutter'. I'm sorry but they weren't nutters when she bought them but she insists on giving them a lot of hard feed, mainly lunges rather than rides, doesn't turn them out very often and then when she does ride they are 'fresh'. Of course they are fresh but that's not a reason to PTS IMO :(
 
rhino said:
So it's ok to kill things as long as we eat them? Should we start eating horses then, would that make it easier? :confused:

Agree that no animal should suffer abuse or neglect, but humane euthanasia is not a welfare issue.
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People do eat horses, do they not? I believe life is over complicated by politics, society etc... Humans have turned animals into a simple supply of food, clothing etc... But even if we hadn't evolved to create the breeding of animals into 'business' we would still be eating animals right? And other animals would eat us.. Remember we only have position at the top of the food chain when holding a gun.

If I could choose what type of human life I was born into, one of a tribe member as somewhere as desolate as the amazon sounds far better than any urban or developed society. Being a part of nature, not using nature for our will.
 
If you did read that 'other thread' surely it would have told you that a. Unless you are present when this person is handling, riding, feeding their horse how do you know all the facts
B. it's their business not yours!!!

Yet another do gooder who doesn't actually know what they are talking about. It is so easy to be an expert from the side lines.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
If you did read that 'other thread' surely it would have told you that a. Unless you are present when this person is handling, riding, feeding their horse how do you know all the facts
B. it's their business not yours!!!

Yet another do gooder who doesn't actually know what they are talking about. It is so easy to be an expert from the side lines.
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I do know the person, I was on same yard with her first 2 horses and no I'm not an expert or a do gooder. Yes it's her business but that doesn't mean I have to agree with her, same as you don't agree with me.
 
Just because you know the person doesn't mean you know ALL the facts. If the horses are 'nutters' and she can't cope with them than in my opinion it is better that they are PTS. Horses like this rarely have a good life. They get passed from pillar to post, bought by people who think they are experienced and can do better, horse injures them, they sell on etc etc.

You just admitted your not an expert so how do you know she isn't trying her best.

Yes you are intitled to your opinion but in this circumstance your opinion is better kept to yourself. The horses do not belong to you
 
Honey08 said:
Some of the replies on here are so naive its untrue! If only life were the little bubble where you can "go without" so that your child and your horse can still have wonderful lives... Life isn't like that. It can be really hard.

Last year I was injured and unable to do my job or earn my usual salary. We used probably £10k of savings just keeping everything afloat. All from an accident in the stable with a horse. We were getting to crisis point when I could go back to work, all the savings were gone, we sold the outgrown pony, and had a few thousand on credit cards. Thankfully I could get back to work and things sorted out. We have our own stables and 20 acres, and even then it wouldn't have been simple - both horses are unable to live out without being liable to get laminitis in summer or mud rash in winter (certainly couldn't afford to get the field drained)..

The year before a good friend of mine got cancer. She died after a year of suffering and nine months of that in hospital. We rallied round to help with the horse, and found him a loaner, but it was hard. Her family struggled like mad. When she died they got lots of money, but the insurance didn't pay until she was dead, and while she was in hospital she couldn't do her job and nor could her husband properly as he was trying to keep her kids lives going. The horse, unfortunately quite rightly, was not the highest concern. She was lucky she had friends to help - he had just been diagnosed with navicular and couldn't be ridden..

The person in the thread that probably prompted this thread is going through a divorce, about to lose her home perhaps, and struggling to keep her head afloat.

My point is, you never know whats around the corner, or what you would have to do. In my twenties I would have probably said the same, that my horses would never go. In my 40s, with mortgages and family, I can only say that I hope I will never be in the position that they will have to go. But I don't know and I can't guarantee it.

I think some of the opinions on here are probably hurtful and rude to those that have had to let horses go/may have to.
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I did say in my opening post that fortunately I'd not been in a position physically or financially where I couldn't keep my animals. I also understand that to PTS can sometimes be the best option if they're elderly or injured and you didn't want them passed from pillar to post.

I'm talking about people who do see it as an easy option because an animal doesn't behave as they'd like and unfortunately there are people like that :( Hopefully not many but they do exist and they are the ones who really sicken me.

Not sure what other post you mean but I can assure you I didn't set out to upset anyone who finds themself in a situation where they have to make a decision about their animals, I'm not talking just horses.
 
ImmyS said:
People do eat horses, do they not? I believe life is over complicated by politics, society etc... Humans have turned animals into a simple supply of food, clothing etc... But even if we hadn't evolved to create the breeding of animals into 'business' we would still be eating animals right? And other animals would eat us.. Remember we only have position at the top of the food chain when holding a gun.

If I could choose what type of human life I was born into, one of a tribe member as somewhere as desolate as the amazon sounds far better than any urban or developed society. Being a part of nature, not using nature for our will.
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Hmm, this is getting a bit weird. How did we get from all animals being equal/not killing healthy animals, to eating meat happily, to wanting to live in the amazon? :confused: People don't routinely eat horsemeat in this country no, they tend to go for pet food or to zoos.

This isn't about politics, society etc., it's about the ethics of killing healthy animals, and personal choice therein.

ToD I don't think you can say you 'can't afford' to keep an unrideable horse, or that you would 'have' to put them down if you couldn't ride them. That's a personal decision you make, you are choosing to pts one to get another, which is your right. Plenty of people would not make the same choice.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Just because you know the person doesn't mean you know ALL the facts. If the horses are 'nutters' and she can't cope with them than in my opinion it is better that they are PTS. Horses like this rarely have a good life. They get passed from pillar to post, bought by people who think they are experienced and can do better, horse injures them, they sell on etc etc.

You just admitted your not an expert so how do you know she isn't trying her best.

Yes you are intitled to your opinion but in this circumstance your opinion is better kept to yourself. The horses do not belong to you
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I was on the same yard with first two horses so I did know facts and just because one person is struggling with them doesn't mean they will be 'nutters' with the next person.

You sound like an experienced horse person so you must know that not every horse gets on with every person. People can sometimes make the horse, dog whatever the animal behave the way it does - don't you agree?
 
I agree Rhino, plenty of people wouldn't agree with me on that one but as you say it is my right and my choice. I would rather put my horse down if unrideable than sell on as a companion as I would hate to not know what might happen to it in those circumstances. I think that is responsible. We all own horses for different reasons.
 
Yes I do agree with you Tiffany not everyone gets on with every horse and some people can manage horses which others would call 'nutters'

How ever, in my experience those people are few and far between. The only people who go our of their way to buy a horse with issues are either people with no budget for a decent horse, people with an over inflated ego on own abilities or people who are stupid! Very rarely do these types of horses end up in happy outcomes. How ever, it does depend on the severity of the horses behaviour.
 
rhino said:
Hmm, this is getting a bit weird. How did we get from all animals being equal/not killing healthy animals, to eating meat happily, to wanting to live in the amazon? :confused: People don't routinely eat horsemeat in this country no, they tend to go for pet food or to zoos.

This isn't about politics, society etc., it's about the ethics of killing healthy animals, and personal choice therein.

ToD I don't think you can say you 'can't afford' to keep an unrideable horse, or that you would 'have' to put them down if you couldn't ride them. That's a personal decision you make, you are choosing to pts one to get another, which is your right. Plenty of people would not make the same choice.
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But isn't it society, politics that has created, altered human views on attitudes towards animals and the killing of them.. I believe so
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Yes I do agree with you Tiffany not everyone gets on with every horse and some people can manage horses which others would call 'nutters'

How ever, in my experience those people are few and far between. The only people who go our of their way to buy a horse with issues are either people with no budget for a decent horse, people with an over inflated ego on own abilities or people who are stupid! Very rarely do these types of horses end up in happy outcomes. How ever, it does depend on the severity of the horses behaviour.
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Agreed :) These horses didn't have issues when she got them and that's my point they gradually start with behavioural problems over 6 -12 months.

You're right not my business but it just upsets me. Anyway off to bed now - night
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
ImmyS not meaning to be rude but have you been smoking something herbal???

Your posts remind me of my younger days at a house party!
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Haha i most definitely have not. Never touched drugs and never will. Just been cursed with very strong opinions especially when it comes to topics like this!
 
I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep, but unfortunately that is what society and generally the human race has resorted to, due to over breeding and lack of responsibility

This ImmyS, this.
 
YorksG said:
I do not believe any healthy animal including horses should be put to sleep, but unfortunately that is what society and generally the human race has resorted to, due to over breeding and lack of responsibility

This ImmyS, this.
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I still don't understand where that suggests that I think only unhealthy animals should be eaten. Nothing about eating is in that passage :confused:
 
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