Another loose dog incident at an event. Time to ban dogs?

[honetpot]

I don't think including Covid in the discussion is at all helpful. If there ever is a ban, it's very unlikely to be in place until events are back to normal, provided a horse or rider doesn't die first.

Only the big events are paid for by spectator attendance, the vast majority are financed by entry fees and sponsors.

Why not? You do run a business in a vacuum and big competitions, events and event centres need other income apart from income from entries, if you get a good sponsor it is easier to break even, and prevent a loss. I have been involved in events large and small for over 20 years, I have also been sponsorship secretary, so I have seen the books. Basic costs are huge, unless the show centre are putting on the event, that is why most are run by the people who own the facilities. I would say the most profit on any show, which can go straight into the event centres books is from catering, which they tend to either to tender to the highest bidder or do in house. They also need a lot of volunteers, most of which are at an age to be in the at risk group, they work twelve hour days for hopefully a good lunch and a pleasant experience.
I have no idea if there is a specific log of deaths/injury on cross-country courses, but if there was, I wonder if the majority are caused by the horse falling on the rider or colliding with a spectator. I haven't an axe to grind, I am just pointing the problems its may cause.

A quick google,
https://europepmc.org/article/med/26891334#sec2-animals-06-00013

'The FEI also reports annually [58] on the injury incidence rate per competitor, arriving at a rate of 0.65% per competitor, then further broken down by level of injury rather than level of competition. The FEI combines “serious” and “fatal” injuries when reporting on the numbers of riders injured, and does not define “serious” injury. The 2015 report reveals 311 seriously or fatally injured riders in the period 2005 to 2014, from a total of 8556 falls from 152,821 competitors, a considerably larger dataset than that available to Paix (4220 competitors) [12]. The total number of riders injured (slight and serious/fatal) was 978 for the period, revealing that 32% of injured riders were seriously or fatally injured, identical to Paix’s results [12]. '
The FEI reports that of the 8556 rider falls recorded between 2005 and 2014, 94% of them occurred at a jump [58]. A study by Stachurska and colleagues [69], in identifying risk factors associated with falls cross-country, also focused on the jumps themselves, pointing to factors such as successive elements of combinations, narrow jumps, brush-type jumps, and jumps with alternative routes, across all levels of competition, from novice (one star) to Olympic and World Championship (four star) level. Other studies [57,65] have identified additional jump-related risks associated with jumps with a drop landing and jumps with approaches out of water, as well as riders knowing they were in the lead after dressage, and riders who received tuition. The most recent research commissioned by the FEI has determined that other jump-related factors increase the likelihood of a horse fall: corner fences, square spreads, upright post and rails, jumps into or out of water, downhill terrain, and some combinations of these factors [70].
So far the biggest risk to the rider, is the fence.

 

[Smitty]

Deleted as posted by mistake - fat fingers!!

 

[ycbm]

Why not?

Because Covid-19 security is a temporary problem which most likely would not exist by the time any ban was implemented. It's just a diversion from the point being discussed.



Regarding the rest of your post and the with the FEI analysis, what kind of argument is it to say that something is already so dangerous that removing an obvious incremental risk, which wouldn't change the challenge of the sport in any way, should simply be dismissed out of hand?



I had to laugh at this gem of wisdom from that FEI report.

far the biggest risk to the rider, is the fence

I wonder how much they paid the consultants to tell them cross country would be safer with no fences ???
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[ycbm]

Why not? You do run a business in a vacuum and big competitions, events and event centres need other income apart from income from entries, if you get a good sponsor it is easier to break even, and prevent a loss. I have been involved in events large and small for over 20 years, I have also been sponsorship secretary, so I have seen the books. Basic costs are huge, unless the show centre are putting on the event, that is why most are run by the people who own the facilities. I would say the most profit on any show, which can go straight into the event centres books is from catering, which they tend to either to tender to the highest bidder or do in house. They also need a lot of volunteers, most of which are at an age to be in the at risk group, they work twelve hour days for hopefully a good lunch and a pleasant experience.

What's the typical income of a typical event from spectator entry fees these days? When I was going regularly, nothing but the big events had more than a few paying spectators. Almost everyone turned up with a competitor or with a BE pass. And of those paying spectators, how many would not go if the dog had to be left at home? The vast majority of BE events are the small ones with few paying spectators. I'm really struggling to see the economic argument here.
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[AnShanDan]

I'd like to think I can comment, having had my sons competing up to intermediate on horses owned by myself, I had a strong interest in their safety!

Of course sh*t happens on the XC, idiots on the course, loose horses, number blew off a jump into one of our horses on day, however, the difference is that dogs are pack animals with a chase instinct. Once they are running after a horse it's almost impossible to stop them.

An outright ban would be going too far but no dogs on the XC would go a long way to mitigating the risk. Competitors could then leave their dogs at the lorry (as many do). How that squares with spectators wanting to bring dogs along I don't know, my personal opinion is that dogs don't really love being trailed round shows or events on the lead all day, but I understand that some owners would not agree.

 

[honetpot]

What's the typical income of a typical event from spectator entry fees these days? When I was going regularly, nothing but the big events had more than a few paying spectators. Almost everyone turned up with a competitor or with a BE pass. And of those paying spectators, how many would not go if the dog had to be left at home? The vast majority of BE events are the small ones with few paying spectators. I'm really struggling to see the economic argument here.
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You have missed the point that the family day out competitors group, will spend more at an event than the competitor that just does their class and goes home. The small events that are at centres, catering is another income stream. There is a calculation for event catering where you can work out the amount of money spent on food, based on the amount of people attending.
As to coronavirus, it's going to be around for at least two years, possibly more, the economic effects of which may make a lot of equestrian events not financially viable as they are run now.
I managed to find a H&H article about the problems of the cost of holding an event.
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/how-much-money-do-british-eventing-competitions-make-526325

 

[DiNozzo]

There wasn't much call to control the depth in water complexes either was there?

If I remember correctly it wasn't until a rider (Polly Phillips maybe?) died after a nasty fall in one. Certainly was a serious accident, although I can't remember the details

I suspect the issue of dogs won't be looked at with any real concern until it either kills a rider or their horse.

ETA: the guidelines.

Top line of bank or step out of water must be very visible in all conditions especially when wet after a few Horses have passed.
• Step out of water, a groundline is recommended and the previous fence should be not less than 13.7m before the step.
• While a slight slope on the ground where Horses land in water is recommended there must not be more than a 20cm change in the depth of water in the first two strides after landing.
• Water to water with a drop is not considered to be an appropriate question at any level.
• The use of ‘white’ coloured fences is not recommended when jumping into water.

https://inside.fei.org/system/files...ry Course Design Guidelines - version 1 7.pdf

 

[ycbm]

Caroline Pratt died in a water complex. It took several horse and rider deaths at flat tables for them to be modified to have a clearly visible back edge.

Honetpot I still don't get your economic argument. There's no evidence that banning dogs on the cross country would result in any loss of revenue.
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[Orangehorse]

Phew, all this because one silly competitor was walking the course with her 2 dogs NOT on a lead when the competition was taking place.

 

[ycbm]

Phew, all this because one silly competitor was walking the course with her 2 dogs NOT on a lead when the competition was taking place.

Err, no, all this because this is yet another incident of a horse chased by a dog on a cross country course. It's been happening for years. There's a long thread on it on the BE forum from 2013.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Phew, all this because one silly competitor was walking the course with her 2 dogs NOT on a lead when the competition was taking place.

No. There is waay more background and history to this than that video, which if you’d read the full thread you would be well aware of.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have read it all! But this particular incident sparked this discussion.

 

[MagicMelon]

TPO - the instances are neither regular or frequent, they are occasional.
The risk posed by dogs at a BE event is no greater than is encountered in every day life from dogs on horse or not.
BE have always previously allowed dogs and many competitors take dogs to an event, so they obviously don’t believe it increases the risk to an unacceptable level.
I know of at least one instance of a dog chasing the rider cross country and it turned out to be the riders own dog !

I dont agree, we all pay to compete at a BE event and expect it to be made as safe as possible, all possible risks are kept to as minimum as possible, Im sure they would have to be for insurance. I absolutely do not expect to be galloping round a XC course with a dog chasing me - that is totally unacceptable. On a hack, well thats a risk I accept and take. I firmly believe the rule on dogs will change and they wont be allowed on the XC course at least, its a ridiculous risk in this day and age.

 

[ester]

Was pleased the other obstacle steward picked up the growly JRT yesterday.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What a brave obstacle steward .

All fingers and other appendages still intact after apprehending the terrier?