Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Well thousands of events over the years , many falls deaths and accidents has any been caused by a dog that’s how insurance works .
Another loose dog incident at an event. Time to ban dogs?
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
For those who live the season in their lorry it’s would be very difficult these dogs travel Europe and Uk all season and these are the riders organisers are desperate to get at their events .
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Not yet, but anyone can see that is only by luck. The pro active amongst us wish to stop this before the fatality, rather than wait for when one inevitably comes.
There could have been one in that video as the dog crossed in front of the horse on a downhill stretch approaching a meaty sized fence.
WandaMare
Well-Known Member
When you say you are being proactive, what have you done about it so far?
TPO
Well-Known Member
I really don't understand how BE are able to allow dogs at events.
I have no idea how an event runs but I know in that in every job I've ever had we legally have to report "near misses", accidents, carry out risk reviews & risk mitigations.
There have been numerous "loose dogs on course" incidents, most spectators will have a tale or two about spectator dogs and apparently there has been a beheaded dog. Will it honestly take someone losing their life before common sense comes into play?
Maybe I'm missing the obvious but are there any pros to letting dogs attend events?
I doubt Paul the Pro will give up eventing because lorry dogs are banned. There will be staff at home for the horses so not a stretch to imagine that dogs could also be cared for.
Amy the Amateur is shelling out £££ to do the BE90 so not a reach to add the equivalent of a start fee on for a dog walker?
Sure Frank the Fence Judge might decide if he cant take Tiddles the Terrier he's out and that's fair enough. I'd say that's a small price to pay for safety.
So much is being invested into making eventing safer yet these easy to fix problems, with just as serious consequences, are allowed to rumble on.
I hope BE are suitably insured should there be a dog accident involving a competitor because if I was an insurance claims bod I'd want to know why, after previous near misses, the practice of having dogs on site was allowed to continue??
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the BE reply regarding dogs on site was in regards to banning them because of covid. I doubt anyone replying was considering the horse & rider safety aspect.
I'd imagine that even if the question was asked from a safety POV everyone would still want dogs allowed because their dogs would never get loose/chase a horse/bite a person/leave dog muck yet it happens constantly so it is *someone's* dog(s).
So in short I cant believe that BE are continuing to allow the risk and I hope their insurers are on board...
I have no idea how an event runs but I know in that in every job I've ever had we legally have to report "near misses", accidents, carry out risk reviews & risk mitigations.
There have been numerous "loose dogs on course" incidents, most spectators will have a tale or two about spectator dogs and apparently there has been a beheaded dog. Will it honestly take someone losing their life before common sense comes into play?
Maybe I'm missing the obvious but are there any pros to letting dogs attend events?
I doubt Paul the Pro will give up eventing because lorry dogs are banned. There will be staff at home for the horses so not a stretch to imagine that dogs could also be cared for.
Amy the Amateur is shelling out £££ to do the BE90 so not a reach to add the equivalent of a start fee on for a dog walker?
Sure Frank the Fence Judge might decide if he cant take Tiddles the Terrier he's out and that's fair enough. I'd say that's a small price to pay for safety.
So much is being invested into making eventing safer yet these easy to fix problems, with just as serious consequences, are allowed to rumble on.
I hope BE are suitably insured should there be a dog accident involving a competitor because if I was an insurance claims bod I'd want to know why, after previous near misses, the practice of having dogs on site was allowed to continue??
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the BE reply regarding dogs on site was in regards to banning them because of covid. I doubt anyone replying was considering the horse & rider safety aspect.
I'd imagine that even if the question was asked from a safety POV everyone would still want dogs allowed because their dogs would never get loose/chase a horse/bite a person/leave dog muck yet it happens constantly so it is *someone's* dog(s).
So in short I cant believe that BE are continuing to allow the risk and I hope their insurers are on board...
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Started this thread for one...
Further action in the offing.
I am a BE volunteer, who never takes their dog to an event.
ETA My co FJ OH spoke up at the pre XC briefing at one local BE event. There was a cricket match due to take place later that day, next to the SJ warm up and a horse walkway.
The TD laughed and said yes, he knew, we could watch a bit of cricket. OH laid into him at the briefing re the H&S aspect - it was our own 2nd team playing there as away team, and balls are regularly hit right out of the ground to where horses, riders and spectators were permitted access. (We had not known that the game was going ahead til just before we got there.).
OH said ‘You have been publicly warned’. Luckily, there were no cricket vs horses incidents that day, but it was just stupid allowing both to go ahead simultaneously with no safe spacing between them.
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TheresaW
Well-Known Member
I used to fence judge regularly for our local Pony Club before we moved up here. I didn’t own dogs then, but none of the other judges ever had dogs with them either.
I haven’t FJ since we moved up here, may go back to it one day, but if I do, I certainly wouldn’t take our 2 dogs with me. They are both active dogs so wouldn’t really get anything out of being sat by the car, plus, I wouldn’t want to have one eye on them, the other on the fence.
Other than Olympia, and the olympics, have never been to horse event as a spectator. Again I wouldn’t take the dogs if I did choose to go to the one in the future. Luna would probably love all the possible attention she would get, Bo would hate it, and I’d be frazzled trying to keep them (everyone else) safe.
We were meant to go to Silverstone for the F1 this year. Dogs were booked into kennels. Maybe we should have thought about taking them with us ?
I haven’t FJ since we moved up here, may go back to it one day, but if I do, I certainly wouldn’t take our 2 dogs with me. They are both active dogs so wouldn’t really get anything out of being sat by the car, plus, I wouldn’t want to have one eye on them, the other on the fence.
Other than Olympia, and the olympics, have never been to horse event as a spectator. Again I wouldn’t take the dogs if I did choose to go to the one in the future. Luna would probably love all the possible attention she would get, Bo would hate it, and I’d be frazzled trying to keep them (everyone else) safe.
We were meant to go to Silverstone for the F1 this year. Dogs were booked into kennels. Maybe we should have thought about taking them with us ?
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
It's based on risk. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.
The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
Exactly!
One show I always return to is Royal Windsor show, there is a blanket ban on dogs on the site, still the odd spectator gets disgruntled when going in the public car parks, but as the ban has been in place for many years (longer than I have been around), you would think they would check.....
stormox
Well-Known Member
What a pessimistic view on life! Id better not cross the road in case I get run over, or maybe I shouldnt get on a horse in case I fall off!!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
An insurer thinks how many claims have there been made by people injured by dogs at a horse trail.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
I dont have any kind of investment in this either way but I am curious to know if those who support or would like to see a ban would do the same for a law that required cats to be kept indoors rather than roaming freely..?? Alot of you don't want to deal with other people's dog (which I fully respect) and or dont like dogs. I absolutely cannot stand cats, they are a plague and a nuisance. Cats cause a massive amount of damage to wildlife and alot of car accidents but it's perceived as "cruel" to keep them in..?? Probably a whole other thread in itself but having watched this argument unfold over Facebook with people complaining that "it's different " for cats etc Im just curious about how people perceive ownership responsibility ?
?
?WandaMare
Well-Known Member
Quite and where do you draw the line, should the crowds be stopped from standing near to the course in case a horse gets loose and runs into them, I would have thought this would be just as much of a risk at some of the events.
TPO
Well-Known Member
I dont have any kind of investment in this either way but I am curious to know if those who support or would like to see a ban would do the same for a law that required cats to be kept indoors rather than roaming freely..?? Alot of you don't want to deal with other people's dog (which I fully respect) and or dont like dogs. I absolutely cannot stand cats, they are a plague and a nuisance. Cats cause a massive amount of damage to wildlife and alot of car accidents but it's perceived as "cruel" to keep them in..?? Probably a whole other thread in itself but having watched this argument unfold over Facebook with people complaining that "it's different " for cats etc Im just curious about how people perceive ownership responsibility ?
A cat won't chase and possibly injure or kill me and my horse.
It's not a welfare issue taking a dog, or not, to events/shows
As a separate argument I can see both sides of the cat argument and it's a big problem in rural Australia with native fauna being killed/wiped out but yeah a seperate issue.
WandaMare
Well-Known Member
I dont have any kind of investment in this either way but I am curious to know if those who support or would like to see a ban would do the same for a law that required cats to be kept indoors rather than roaming freely..?? Alot of you don't want to deal with other people's dog (which I fully respect) and or dont like dogs. I absolutely cannot stand cats, they are a plague and a nuisance. Cats cause a massive amount of damage to wildlife and alot of car accidents but it's perceived as "cruel" to keep them in..?? Probably a whole other thread in itself but having watched this argument unfold over Facebook with people complaining that "it's different " for cats etc Im just curious about how people perceive ownership responsibility ?
I don't support a complete ban of dogs at events but I'm happy to be persuaded if that's what the people involved in the sport would like to happen. I do however prefer cats to be kept indoors or even better with an outside secured area, because of the number of them that are killed by traffic. I think saying they are a plague and nuisance is a bit harsh tbh, they make ideal pets for some people and bring a lot of pleasure to people as companion animals.
SussexbytheXmasTree
Well-Known Member
Trouble is everyone wants something or another banned and thankfully a lot of the time it doesn’t happen.
Locally over the summer people were complaining about dogs on the beach because they run around enjoying themselves. No accidents or anyone injured. Mostly these people are not even there it’s only because they couldn’t go shopping or to Malaga. Some were calling for a ban. It’s not a “tourist” beach it’s got virtually no facilities and people leave their rubbish everywhere I expect they wee in the sea and poop in any bush they can find. Personally I’d rather ban stupid people.
They now restrict horses between 10 and 6 in the summer Fair enough It wasn’t restricted at all when I was a child. They want to totally ban them at another Beach locally.
Locally over the summer people were complaining about dogs on the beach because they run around enjoying themselves. No accidents or anyone injured. Mostly these people are not even there it’s only because they couldn’t go shopping or to Malaga. Some were calling for a ban. It’s not a “tourist” beach it’s got virtually no facilities and people leave their rubbish everywhere I expect they wee in the sea and poop in any bush they can find. Personally I’d rather ban stupid people.
They now restrict horses between 10 and 6 in the summer Fair enough It wasn’t restricted at all when I was a child. They want to totally ban them at another Beach locally.
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SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
The Facebook Post I refer to had someone telling dog owners that they were completely irresponsible for taking their dogs to events, it then transpired that the same person has 4 cats that roam freely. Another poster pointed out that this could be considered highly irresponsible and so the the argument began lol.
I appreciate that some people like cats and that they provide companionship etc...Im not knocking that. I just personally don't like them. And as there are a few in my area that enjoy killing the wild birds and shitting in my garden I stand by them being an absolute nuisance.
Nearly 4 years ago my friend nearly got killed out riding her horse when a cat ran out into the middle of the road (40mph limit)...a car had to do an emergency stop (was doing 31mph) but aquaplaned as it was a wet, slippy road, car hit her horse and she came off. Apart from cuts and bruises the horse was fine but my friend fractured part of her neck.
ETA: I don't know if dogs should be banned or not, but irresponsible ownership is everywhere. There needs to be a very serious deterrent in place for these things happening
I appreciate that some people like cats and that they provide companionship etc...Im not knocking that. I just personally don't like them. And as there are a few in my area that enjoy killing the wild birds and shitting in my garden I stand by them being an absolute nuisance.
Nearly 4 years ago my friend nearly got killed out riding her horse when a cat ran out into the middle of the road (40mph limit)...a car had to do an emergency stop (was doing 31mph) but aquaplaned as it was a wet, slippy road, car hit her horse and she came off. Apart from cuts and bruises the horse was fine but my friend fractured part of her neck.
ETA: I don't know if dogs should be banned or not, but irresponsible ownership is everywhere. There needs to be a very serious deterrent in place for these things happening
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Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Oh don't be dramatic, I have to draw up risk assessments all the time, I have to consider any risk and grade it, and work out how to mitigate it, so I'm guessing you check your girth is tight before you get on your horse? Same thing.
Any insurer will assess risk the same way.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
See my reply to Stormox.
TPO
Well-Known Member
The difference between letting your cat out or taking you to the beach is that it's not risking the life of horses or riders in an competition setting.
Dogs getting loose and chasing horses at BE events has happened numerous times and been "near misses". From watching the latest video you can see how close it came to being an actual accident.
Competitors have paid £££ to participate and the onus is in BE to ensure it's as safe an environment as practicable. Its known that dogs can get loose and do cause an issue. The risk that a loose dog could cause a serious accident or fatality has to be high given previous.
It's an organised event by BE and operated under their insurance. People pay to be there whether they are spectators or competitors. I don't understand how or why BE are able to/choose to allow dogs
I honestly cant see any similarities to loose cats or dogs at the beach (where horses have also been chased by loose dogs).
Dogs getting loose and chasing horses at BE events has happened numerous times and been "near misses". From watching the latest video you can see how close it came to being an actual accident.
Competitors have paid £££ to participate and the onus is in BE to ensure it's as safe an environment as practicable. Its known that dogs can get loose and do cause an issue. The risk that a loose dog could cause a serious accident or fatality has to be high given previous.
It's an organised event by BE and operated under their insurance. People pay to be there whether they are spectators or competitors. I don't understand how or why BE are able to/choose to allow dogs
I honestly cant see any similarities to loose cats or dogs at the beach (where horses have also been chased by loose dogs).
Elf On A Shelf
...
I like cats. They are arrogant dicks that look after themselves and look smugly down at all who disagree!
I wonder what people would say if I rocked up with a goose as my therapy pet ...
Better not actually! I get enough flack from the exracehorse crowd when I take a Shetland with me that stands by the edge of the ring and freaks them all out except for mine ?? Maybe we should ban Shetlands too!?!!?!?!?!!
I wonder what people would say if I rocked up with a goose as my therapy pet ...
Better not actually! I get enough flack from the exracehorse crowd when I take a Shetland with me that stands by the edge of the ring and freaks them all out except for mine ?? Maybe we should ban Shetlands too!?!!?!?!?!!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
One location is known for having ducks, just can't remember which atm!
Fred66
Well-Known Member
It might actually be impossible to do a blanket ban as quite a few courses have public footpaths and therefore people on those paths are able to take their dogs.
Additionally the members of BE have been asked and overwhelmingly support allowing dogs.
Strengthen measures to penalise the irresponsible but not the vast majority of responsible dog owners.
Additionally the members of BE have been asked and overwhelmingly support allowing dogs.
Strengthen measures to penalise the irresponsible but not the vast majority of responsible dog owners.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
I agree, I was merely trying (and failing I think) to say that there are alot of perceptions about responsibility as per something I'd been reading, I appreciate that they are different things. (I'm not gonna lie, I think I'm missing my own point now ?).
I don't know what the answer is to the dog situation...I can see both sides but the BE say that dogs are allowed then it's tricky. I don't see why a spectator needs to bring a dog to that kind of event to be fair. It would bore my dogs to death lol.
The fact that people think it's OK to allow their dogs off the lead at events blows my brain ?????
TPO
Well-Known Member
I'd hazard a guess that they support it because:
They are dog owners and it's more convenient to be able to bring dogs
They never think it will be their dogs that get loose and/or chase a horse
Riders probably rarely consider that they might get chased/tripped/attacked by a loose dog(s)
They don't consider other people and trade stand owners* when taking their dogs into shopping village/trade stands.
*for every sign I've seen saying not to take male dogs into the stand I've seen twice as many lifting a leg on stock and owners either oblivious or try to make a quick getaway. Also been at a stand when an assistant went to take a saddle pad off a shelf and a dog had somehow peed over all of them and it had ruined at least 5 pads.
They are dog owners and it's more convenient to be able to bring dogs
They never think it will be their dogs that get loose and/or chase a horse
Riders probably rarely consider that they might get chased/tripped/attacked by a loose dog(s)
They don't consider other people and trade stand owners* when taking their dogs into shopping village/trade stands.
*for every sign I've seen saying not to take male dogs into the stand I've seen twice as many lifting a leg on stock and owners either oblivious or try to make a quick getaway. Also been at a stand when an assistant went to take a saddle pad off a shelf and a dog had somehow peed over all of them and it had ruined at least 5 pads.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
The footpaths thing has come up more generally recently re. spectators and current restrictions.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
People don't/arn't allowed to take dogs to almost any other sporting event, why do they expect to take them to an event?
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Entitlement.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
To be honest, I go to a lot of big events, with my perfectly behaved dogs on leads and harnesses, and I wish I had a pound for every 4/5* rider I’ve seen course walking with their dogs off the lead. I actually think they need to lead by example.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
From a health and safety perspective, it would make sense to limit course walks to adult/competitor children only. Over the years (spectator mainly) I have seen several near misses and two falls caused by prams (surprisingly scary to some horses) and running/screaming children. Admittedly, the horses on the course should be concentrating on their job, but they aren’t infallible. A kid screaming at them and jumping around mid-tantrum isn’t something they all experience day to day.
Loose dogs are an absolute hazard and I’m very surprised that in this health and safety-conscious world they are still allowed. I doubt any dog has 100% recall in all circumstances. Even on the lead dogs can be annoying. I did a dressage test with a terrier incessantly barking and lunging at us, standing right at the fence, and it was very irritating.
In reality, you can’t protect against everything and it is difficult to see where to draw the line. Some horses react to the dogs, others don’t. Some don’t like the score gatherers on motorbikes, but most are fine. You can’t protect against everything, but I do think it’s irresponsible to have dogs off the lead at an event.
Loose dogs are an absolute hazard and I’m very surprised that in this health and safety-conscious world they are still allowed. I doubt any dog has 100% recall in all circumstances. Even on the lead dogs can be annoying. I did a dressage test with a terrier incessantly barking and lunging at us, standing right at the fence, and it was very irritating.
In reality, you can’t protect against everything and it is difficult to see where to draw the line. Some horses react to the dogs, others don’t. Some don’t like the score gatherers on motorbikes, but most are fine. You can’t protect against everything, but I do think it’s irresponsible to have dogs off the lead at an event.