Another Mudfever Q!

LeannePip

LeannePip

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Just a quick Q, with a bit of waffle first!

unsurprisingly with all this terrible weather my horse got a touch of mud fever on her back legs, which swelled as the usually do to tree trunk like legs but only little scabs in a few areas; they wernt weeping or anything, just a bit scabby, tried unsuccessfully for a week to conquer it, didn't improve, didn't really get worse, vet was coming out last Thursday any way for stifle stuff so she gave me some fab cream that she'd made up(udder cream, sulphur & Penecillin) slapped it on, bit of cling film for twenty minutes, washed and dried legs all scabs came off, put that cream on twice a day untill it ran out, now just slapping some aqueous cream and sulphur on and no scabs! BUT . . . One back leg has gone down (still slightly puffy around the fetlocks but think this is more her standing in more than usual, and the fact she also gave her self a good gash the day before the vet came too :roll eyes: ) the other is still massive, not a squishy sort of 'filled' but a solid fat leg still not overly hot, but there is heat.

now - i couldn't get hold of vet today to ask her opinion so am just asking opinions here first! if i need the vet out i will, but having just payed out nearly £800 to the vet because my insurance won't pay out(another story!), the last thing i need is another call out if I'm just worrying! is this something i should worry about or is it likely its still the infection leaving?

ETA this was meant to be tack room, Sorry!
 
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brilliant! -_- just what i need this week! okay, will ring vet tomorrow!

Bl**dy Horses at least its giving her left hind a break from medical attention the tally in the last fortnight is
left hind:
Dodgey stifle being medicated
Fat hock from kicking the stable in anger at being prodded by SMT
and 15cm gash on the front of the cannon from something in the field

right hind:
Fat leg

-_-
 
We live in a bog and one of ours is prone to mudfever. I go off the theory that if I can't get the swelling down in a few days or it goes towards the hock or knee I call the vet. I find that if you have got all the scabs off you need to let the skin dry out properly and "build itself up" again, so even without scabs I would keep him off any wet or muddy areas for now. Obviously keeping him moving as much as you can to get the swelling down, so riding out and a hardstanding turnout area is even better. I would ring the vet and be honest, say you don't want to run up any more bills if you can help it, but wanted to ask their advice.
 
I would give it a last ditch attempt before I got the Vet out.

Can you keep her in? The way I treat this sort of condition is to make up a solution of hibbiscrub - not too strong - get it really foamy and rub into legs keeping it foaming. Leave it on the legs for 5 minutes. Wash off with cold water, dry the legs with a towel and then put on drying wraps. Repeat a couple of times a day until you see improvement.

Any niggly spots I treat with sudocrem.

The trick is to leave the hibbiscrub for a period of time to kill the bacteria, this is how my Vet advised me to treat scaby/mudfever legs.
 
Thanks all, Unfortunatly im a bit stuck atm with regard to keeping her in which agree would be ideal!

Im a bit in a catch 22, she just had her near hind stifle medicated last Thursday so needs to be out moving as shes needing a week off before re-hab starts, can start working her at the weekend. their field isnt too bad its about 7 acres and only a bit muddy around the gate so i dont worry about her being stood in mud all day its only to get in and out! what do you do when one problem requires them to be out and moving and the other needs them in and dry? Shes on livery and we dont have a hard standing turn out unfortunatly!
 
Try neem oil. My Orange boy had a fat leg earlier this winter, the mud was brushed off, we applied neem and the swelling was gone next day. He's super sensitive - gets mud fever when no mud and needs antibiotics - and his legs swell very easily. He lives out in muddy conditions and I've kept it at bay all winter from all 3 of my horses by applying neem once a week or so. The trick with neem is not to wash the leg, let the mud dry then brush it and apply. I've recommended it to a few people and those who tried it have had great results. It's about £12 for a litre and that's done me with 3 all winter.
 
Neem Oil is good if you can get it.

I always have a bottle of Nizoral Shampoo in my grooming kit as it is absolutely wonderful for mudfever, rainscald and greasy heel.

Dilute with hand hot water and thoroughly wash the leg all around and well above and below the affected area.

Usually I find that if I wash immediately I notice the hair standing on end it doesn't progress any further and is gone overnight. With definite scabs I'd expect it to be gone within the week.

I usually don't rinse it off.
 
Previous to it flaring up i had been putting pig oil on is this similar to neem oil?

i'v pretty much got it sorted now with regards to keepinng the scabs off, but will bear your suggestions in mind, as her other three legs have cleared up beautifully although the fronts never really amounted to much as i caught it before it did, but will bear your suggestions in mind. its more is it normal for one leg to stay swollen even though the scabs are long gone?

Have text'd vet any way and will wait to see what she says!
Thanks all x
 
LeannePip said:
Previous to it flaring up i had been putting pig oil on is this similar to neem oil?
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Er, nope! Pig oil is NOT the same!!! - and in fact just could make your situation worse as there could be an allergy your horse has to it. And PLEASE don't ever mix it with sulphur before patch-testing for at least 24 hrs first. Which goes for virtually any other substance as well TBH coz if mud fever is present you can make things an awful lot worse by using stuff on it which your horse might well be allergic to.

Having said that, Pig Oil is a very useful thing, and I use it on my two, mixed up with a few drops of Neem oil and Tea Tree.
 
My horse got similar to what you are describing, they are a lot better now. He had a course of anti-biotics, I kept turning him out but bandages right down to his hooves so his legs stayed totally clean / dry. I've carried on hunting him and slap loads of sudocrem on to stop the mud getting to his legs and then wash him with hibicrub/warm water when I get home and put leg wraps on him for the night so they dry quicker.

Seems to have worked, might have been a struggle without the anti-bs though.
 
Washing with Hibiscrub can really weaken the skin. It will dry it out terribly. It is after all a very strong disinfectant who's real purpose is to sterilise a surgeons hands prior to surgery.

Being a disinfectant it's not going to do much for the Mudfever anyway. If anyone is having to spend several days/weeks clearing up Mudfever then they are using the wrong stuff.

Neem Oil has been used in India as an anti fungal/antibacterial agent for centuries, it works really well but is horribly smelly.

Products such as Nizoral which is an anti fungal for human hair works really well as it actually kills the Mudfever spores and fast, usually one wash is all that is needed.

Leaving the scabs alone is crucial. They are not real scabs but congealed lymph that has oozed through the skin and dried around the hairs. When you pick them off you risk actually breaking the skin making it bleed and introducing bacterial infection. Nizoral breaks down the scabs.

If a horse continues to have Mudfever type symptoms which don't respond to normal treatment then the horse is more likely to be suffering from photosensitisation generally brought on by eating legume plants such as Lucerne (Alfalfa) hay or excessive clovers in its grazing. Many processed feeds have Lucerne in them. If you stop feeding the legume feeds the skin problem goes.
 
I haven't had a horse with mud fever since I have been feeding bespoke minerals from forage plus 3 years ago. My horses are the only ones on a yard of 36 without mud fever this winter...
 
If the leg is still swollen and the other one is OK, I'm afraid I would suspect an infection and need antibiotics.
Some horse's legs just do swell up at the slightest excuse and the tinest little scratch (I have one!).

I found Equine America Fungatrol (?sp) very good at clearing up mud fever, it smells nice too. As for not getting mud fever, I have never had a horse with mud fever since feeding Top Spec balancer despite horse being out in fetlock deep mud and having no barrier cream.
 
Try neem oil. My Orange boy had a fat leg earlier this winter, the mud was brushed off, we applied neem and the swelling was gone next day. He's super sensitive - gets mud fever when no mud and needs antibiotics - and his legs swell very easily. He lives out in muddy conditions and I've kept it at bay all winter from all 3 of my horses by applying neem once a week or so. The trick with neem is not to wash the leg, let the mud dry then brush it and apply. I've recommended it to a few people and those who tried it have had great results. It's about £12 for a litre and that's done me with 3 all winter.
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Thank you for this tip... I will be breaking out the neem oil tomorrow, if I can manage to get horse's legs dry enough! I think we'll be doing a good long hack to give a break from the mud, and hopefully by the time we get back to field the legs will be dry enough to brush and oil!
 
Tnavas said:
Neem Oil is good if you can get it.

I always have a bottle of Nizoral Shampoo in my grooming kit as it is absolutely wonderful for mudfever, rainscald and greasy heel.

Dilute with hand hot water and thoroughly wash the leg all around and well above and below the affected area.

Usually I find that if I wash immediately I notice the hair standing on end it doesn't progress any further and is gone overnight. With definite scabs I'd expect it to be gone within the week.

I usually don't rinse it off.
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I second the Nizerol.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Er, nope! Pig oil is NOT the same!!! - and in fact just could make your situation worse as there could be an allergy your horse has to it. And PLEASE don't ever mix it with sulphur before patch-testing for at least 24 hrs first. Which goes for virtually any other substance as well TBH coz if mud fever is present you can make things an awful lot worse by using stuff on it which your horse might well be allergic to.

Having said that, Pig Oil is a very useful thing, and I use it on my two, mixed up with a few drops of Neem oil and Tea Tree.
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Including Hibiscrub and, for that matter, Tea Tree Oil. I had one we washed in Hibiscrub and applied Sudocreme at the first sign of trouble. Turned out he was allergic to both. :( Although, to be fair, he turned out to have vasculitis.

Re foxy's comment, the above horse currently lives out 24/7 with no access to facilities and we've struggled the last two winters. This year I changed his feeding significantly and he's not had a single problem. Of course, that's no proof of anything, especially since it's been so mild but it's not exactly been dry!
 
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Pig Oil is just 'Liquid Paraffin' the same stuff that is used for baby oil. The Sulpher is the part that can cause problems with allergies.

To help reduce the problem ensure that your feed as a reasonable amount of Zinc and Copper in it - both are required to produce strong healthy skin.

Make sure legs are either washed off - without the use of a stiff brush (scratches the skin) or the legs are allowed to dry before brushing.

If there is masses of mud a scrunched up handful of hay works well to remove the worst without damaging the skin.
 
Personaly I would substitute Bicarbonate of soda for the sulphur. It is alkaline ,astringent and antiseptic,it is also very mild. By changing the PH of the skin ,the acidophillic bacteria which cause "mud fever" are driven out without killing the normal skin flora of bacteria. The use of substances such as Hibiscrub merely kills everything and lays the skin open to reinfection by the most virulent bacteria around.Odd isnt it that mud fever used to be considered a disease of "neglect " by old fashioned horsemen who had no modern drugs at their disposal!
 
Mike007 said:
Personaly I would substitute Bicarbonate of soda for the sulphur. It is alkaline ,astringent and antiseptic,it is also very mild. By changing the PH of the skin ,the acidophillic bacteria which cause "mud fever" are driven out without killing the normal skin flora of bacteria. The use of substances such as Hibiscrub merely kills everything and lays the skin open to reinfection by the most virulent bacteria around.Odd isnt it that mud fever used to be considered a disease of "neglect " by old fashioned horsemen who had no modern drugs at their disposal!
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Mike Mudfever is fungal in its early stages and becomes infected by bacteria when scabs are forcibly removed
 
Not in my experience.It is due to an acidophilic bacterium which lives in the anaerobic conditition often present in muddy ground.Hence it s prevalence on clay soils rather than chalky soils.
 
Mike007 said:
Not in my experience.It is due to an acidophilic bacterium which lives in the anaerobic conditition often present in muddy ground.Hence it s prevalence on clay soils rather than chalky soils.
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It has now been proven to start as a fungal infection - the scabs are lymph that has oozed through the skin congealing around the hair making the characteristic lumpy tufts.

If these are forcibly removed the skin truly breaks and infection gets in. Up until this point the skin hasn't actually broken.

Vets usually only see Mudfever when it's got right out of control following aggressive removal of scabs, use of harsh chemicals such as Hibiscrub and other disinfectants. If caught in its early stages with a good anti fungal (Iodine is generally not very effective) it can be stopped in its tracks.

Sodium bicarbonate also has anti fungal properties and is also a mild disinfectant
 
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I would be interested in reading any evidence you have regarding fungal infection. This does not ring true in my experience. Fungi are notoriously ph sensetive. Ther is of course a natural fungal presence on the skin and I can understand that the disruption of this might lead to opportunistic bacterial infection. I do however agree that the use of harsh chemicals is more the cause than the solution. Iodine is of course remarkably antifungal so I do think your comment on its lack of effect rather proves my point . It is great for ringworm but rubbish for mud fever. The first being fungal ,the second being.....
 
Mike007 said:
I would be interested in reading any evidence you have regarding fungal infection. This does not ring true in my experience. Fungi are notoriously ph sensetive. Ther is of course a natural fungal presence on the skin and I can understand that the disruption of this might lead to opportunistic bacterial infection. I do however agree that the use of harsh chemicals is more the cause than the solution. Iodine is of course remarkably antifungal so I do think your comment on its lack of effect rather proves my point . It is great for ringworm but rubbish for mud fever. The first being fungal ,the second being.....
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I'm in a high humidity area of NZ and we see masses of Mudfever and rainscald - the moment I see the clumping hair I wash with Nizoral and its gone completely in a few days. My Clydesdale and her two offspring have masses of white legs between them so I keep some diluted in a pump spray bottle and use it at the first sign.

Others battle for months using all manner of treatments including bandaging with Cling Film,poulticing and other stuff. Those that finally use Nizoral come back to me so relieved that finally they have managed to stop its progress.

The racing stables where I used to work now use Nizoral to treat it and these were people who in the past had me scrape the scabs off with a hacksaw blade, softened with washing up liquid.

Nizoral is totally pain free too so the horses don't get nasty about having it treated. I have testimonials from all around the world now and my own vets recommending its use.

Ringworm also clears up far faster with Nizoral than with Iodine. I've tried both and no longer bother with Iodine - Nizoral also doesn't stain the horse when used.

Give Nizoral a try next time you get anything with either Mudfever or Rainscald.
 
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From a vet. . . . Mudfever is Dermatophilus congolensis which is a bacteria. No fungus involved.

I have some experience with the fungal infection horses often get in Florida but it's nothing like mud fever.

I guess Nizoral might work because of another ingredient or just because it's a milder cleaning agent than Hibiscrub or similar. A rehab yard I worked for always washed legs with a weak solution of Head & Shoulders, although it's impossible to tell how well it worked as maybe they wouldn't have had a problem no matter what.

I've found the feeding thing very interesting but I guess it makes sense - the healthier the horse is, the more it can resist any assault
 
I would agree with people who say don't use pig oil. I also would say don't use sudocreme, sulphur, or baby oil. My gelding had persistent 'mud fever' which was vascilitis, and I have a horrible feeling that he was allergic also to mineral oils, like in sudocreme, pig oil and baby oil.

The only thing which I use on his leg now is olive oil. I have healthcare professional friends who think baby oil, and the like are terrible & harsh, like wise aqueous cream, which is horrible stuff.

I really would not be putting lots of different things on the leg. I would ask the vet for fuciderm or similar prior to bringing in & then turn out with olive oil on leg. You could probably get a prescription for anti B's & an anti flam, without a vet visit.
 
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