Another Question about the RAW diet

[DaisyDuke]

Right so I don't feed the raw diet to my dogs at the moment but my Mother in law does. (a very new thing)
Now from reading some of your posts on here I'm not sure if she is doing the right thing?
All she feeds hers is mince, raw egg and natural yoghurt, no bones or anything, is this right?
When I asked her she seemed to think it was fine?
Wonder if anyone can answer this so that I can give her some gentle guidance!!!
Thanks.

 

[soloabe]

IMHO she needs bone in there. I don't know anyone who has successfully fed a no bone diet.

 

[gina2201]

I'd be interested in hearing what is a typical daily feeding regime on the BARF diet as my puppy to be will be/is on this soany hints and tips would be greatly received.

 

[KarynK]

Here you go I have this on file!

My two adult cattle dogs weigh around 20-22 kg and this is roughly their diet:

Basically if you feed a variety and aim to balance over a week or two and not every meal. I feed mine once a day as adults.

Day 1 - Chicken carcasses or wings (5 supermarket wings or 1 carcass for a 22kg mutt probably less butchers wings as they are bigger)
Day 2 – Breast of lamb (in half one gets the soft meaty end and the other the bony end and if I remember who’s had what I rotate that on the next lamb meal)
Day 3 – Offal - Liver/Hearts or Tripe with a couple of teaspoons of blended veg and a raw egg. Will put a handful of pumpkin seeds in the blender now and again as they help detach worms from the digestive tract, (may possibly helps sis has had 0 worm counts for years) Mine hate kidneys and I have to lightly braise liver before they will eat it!
Day 4 – Chicken (Carcases or wings for mine as they maintain weight, if you have a skinny go for legs or thighs with more muscle meat)
Day 5 – Fishies ( Pilchards in tomato sauce with some raw fish mixed in – like whitebait whatever’s reduced or on offer.) with an egg and some cold pressed animal oil
Day 6 – Breast of lamb
Day 7 – Piggie tootie or pork chops (careful Pigs trotters can make them fart so can be a bit dodgy for those prone to problems and the bones can be quite hard)
Day 8 – Chicken
Day 9 - minced meat or something like stewing steak in chunks – whatever is on offer with a bit of veg eggs and oil if it’s mince or chunks. If its whole steak pieces they just get that to chew on (this helps clean teeth and massages gums)
Day 10 – Exotics – Rabbit, game or sometimes real treat Oxtail or a turkey leg (cheap in ASDA)
Day 11 – Chicken
Day 12 – Lamb bones with a bit of meat on them
Day 13 – Offal & veg
Day 14 – Chicken

Some supplement with Kelp, but I keep forgetting to buy it! Apparently alfalfa sprouts are good too, they will eat the horse’s alfalfa but if I put it in their feed they turn their noses up! I use any veg that’s cheap or that is still in the fridge from the last shop, but they love carrots and I like to use spinach as it’s high in iron. It’s blended to break down the cellulose in the plant cell walls so the dogs can get something out of it I add raw eggs and cold pressed fish oil..

Though this is typically my diet over 2 weeks I tend to put my food in the freezer in mixed levels then they get what comes out in no particular order, but for puppies you might want to mix it up a bit more frequently.

Unless you have a chicken factory nearby, the butcher is best bet as you will save a lot of money that way with, it’s all of human grade quality and they have to pay to get rid of it all!!! Also you will find me hanging around the reduced counter at supermarkets! With the price of chickens there you should be able to get a few, I often take the crown off for me and give the dogs the arms legs and back. The super market birds have softer bones as they are younger so would be good for puppies and for starting off older dogs.

 

[Shutterbug]

Wonderfully helpful thread Korben is going raw diet over the next few weeks - hes already half raw - half Royal Canin but I want him on full raw diet. The info above is just what I was looking for

 

[gina2201]

Excellent thread and above post/s.

I am getting a puppy in a few weeks who is currently fed this raw/BARF diet, well mum is and they start to experiment so am keen to continue this, I will have to find a good butcher!

How much do you feed your dogs a day, (say in kg) for an adult, and do you find it works ut cheaper then a conventional "complete" food?

 

[KarynK]

The great thing about raw is that you don't have to be precise, it's very forgiving. I have I never actually weighed mine's food, if they are looking a little portly I feed more bone and if they are lean I'll go up to chicken legs with more muscle meat on them. So bone fills them up without putting weight on and muscle meat piles on the pounds!

From the butcher I just got a months worth of raw meat and bones, the bulk of their diet for £5 and that's for 2!!

 

[gina2201]

Excellent, thankyou very much, I have read so many good, and not so good, things about this diet that it is quite confusing.

 

[KarynK]

Best intro book is Ian Billinghurst's book Give Your Dog a Bone, I don't agree with all of that one, mine are not fed dairy or anything like pasta, but it's a good starter. He has also written a couple of others " Grow your pups with bones" and "The BARF diet". His website is
http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/# and he is a vet!

 

[soloabe]

This website is Fab and i agree with far more in it than Ian's book although he does have a lot of good things in his book.

http://preymodelraw.com/

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I asked TFC to make it a sticky so I could stop annoying people with random questions.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Oh.....my.....God!

Haven't seen OH for some days as he's on lates. I just got home and he has been to Pets at Home who didn't have Skinners so he wrote one of his epic notes saying 'why don't we feed raw?' FAINT! I have been subtly pestering for about 3 weeks but not pressing too hard. There is a massive box of chicken wings in the fridge and he wants to start now! (He doesn't know not to mix raw and kibble on the same day, bless him, so it'll be tomorrow)

I am flipping delighted! I've trawled other raw posts for a list-thank you Karynk as yours will be my basis!

It's half term so I am on a mission to find a processing place and a decent butcher and will be haunting the meat aisle in all local supermarkets in a frenzied manner!

It feels a bit like my birthday! I'm so very pleased he has seen the light! I think it has a lot to do with Jake and the potential effects of rubbish low cost food he sometimes got . OH says what if that caused his cancer? Devastating thought so no way am I risking Brig and the babies.

Stupid question alert:
* are they old enough to go raw? (They're 5 months, nearly, just tell me to stop being stupid!)
* And if feeding veg, should it be cooked or just blended raw?
* Can I just switch completely or should I do some days kibble still as they're so young?

 

[soloabe]

Stupid question alert:
* are they old enough to go raw? (They're 5 months, nearly, just tell me to stop being stupid!)
* And if feeding veg, should it be cooked or just blended raw?
* Can I just switch completely or should I do some days kibble still as they're so young?

Yes they are old enough. We have had 8 week old puppies on raw!

When i use to feed it i would blend it raw.

Switch completely. I personally don't think it does them any good to get kibble and raw.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

List of possible foods, very useful:

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

FAQs from the same site:

How much should I feed?
The general guideline is 2% to 3% of your dog's ideal adult weight. This is only a starting point. Each dog is different. Watch your dog's waist and ribs. If your dog gets too chubby, cut back on what you're feeding. If your dog gets too thin, increase what you're feeding.


What should I start with when I switch my dog to raw?
One common beginner mistake is to feed too much variety too soon. Pick one protein source and stick with it for a week or two. A popular choice for dogs new to raw is chicken. It's inexpensive, the bones are relatively soft and easy to digest for beginners, and it's easy to find.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I know I'm a pain!

The OH bought chicken wings: is this a good thing to use and should I feed the pups (and Brig) whole wings or chop them? I'm sure that at some point I will be confident to get on and do this!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

Superb.

 

[KarynK]

Right as we have a sticky here are some useful facts about why I feed raw:


Dogs, yes even small domestic dogs have evolved from the wild dog over thousands of years to eat protein and fat and bones for their main source of energy. That wild dog perfected a system of eating meat protein over millions of years, they have gave up eating plants to chase catch and kill those that do! Meat, fat, bones all contain sources of energy that are easy to break down and require less frequent feeding to gain the energy necessary to live feed and reproduce.

In the course of that evolution many things have changed that are clues to the diet they need:

Dentition

Their teeth are sharp edged saws for cutting/tearing their food which is swallowed in large chunks. Dogs do not start the digestive process in the mouth like humans do by chewing and adding elements to the saliva, it goes straight to the stomach for that in lumps. They have therefore on a natural diet no need to chew anything into small bits, a good things as they cannot grind with their teeth a big clue as plant eaters almost always can, they have flat molars in the back of the mouth to grind plant material and break into the plant cell walls to get at the goodies.. A dog has no tooth brush; their solution is meat and bones to keep them clean

Digestive System

Their gut is very short, of all the carnivores dogs have got by with serious scavenging at times, they have dealt with the problems of rotting meat by having a very short, very naturally acidic gut, that way they can ingest germs that would kill a human. If the acidity in their gut does not kill bad bacteria the speed at which their natural diet passes through does not allow the bug’s time to breed and take hold. Plant eaters especially herbivores have long guts to stew the plant material and employ friendly bacteria to help get at the nutrients from plant cells.

The speed of this digestion is why you should never mix dry food with natural diet, dried products and cooked tinned products slow down the system in order for the dog to get anything from them, mixing the two speeds can mean serious blockages!!

Protein sources from meat are a much higher quality than those which plants produce. Plant proteins often used in commercial dog food cannot compete with the proteins of the natural diet. Meat proteins are easy to break down with the acidity of the dogs gut. Ever heard of Scurvy? It’s a disease that affects humans if they have no dietary source of vitamin C from plants – Dogs have no need of vitamin C in their diet they manufacture their own in their liver, another clue as to what they have evolved to eat, (not plants)! BUT this is obtained through the use minerals provided in the diet and if these are of poor quality or synthetic well!

A dog has NO DIETARY REQUIREMENT for CARBOHYDRATES. A dog does not need what we would call high fibre, no bran flakes or anything like that at all. A dog’s natural fibre is Bone, fur, feathers and claws. Eating a well thought out raw diet provides all the fibre they need, and the naturally hard stools it produces cleans out the anal gland rather than your expensive vet’s efforts!!


The Evolution thing!

Many commercial fans try and imply that the dog after just a few decades can no longer eat a meat diet! How fantastic that modern science can change evolution so quickly (RUBBISH)! A dog still has all the set up to eat meat it is just not allowed!!

So to counter this Commercial dried foods for dogs only became popular in the USA in the 1970's, before that dogs were either fed wet tinned with scraps or raw bones hence the saying "as fit as a Butchers Dog". I find it alarming that few vets question this sudden miraculous transformation to a carnivore needing to be fed an almost vegetarian diet!

Personally I am worried by the number of illnesses we see since commercial dog food and especially kibble is used. Diabetes (how can that happen to a carnivore? they shouldn’t be relying on sugars for food!) More complex cancers and bowel cancers, itchiness, obesity, ear problems, anal gland infection and removal, bad breath, rotting teeth, most of this list I do not see in raw fed dogs, especially those that are the result of several generations of raw feeding. Dr Ian Billinghurst (B.V.Sc) has been much criticised by his own profession for speaking out against commercial pet foods, Australia being behind the USA in introducing convenience pet foods he was alarmed by the sudden decline in health of his own and clients dogs, he decided to switch his dogs back to raw and has never looked back, he really is the one that has opened most peoples eyes.


Look at film footage from around the world that shows feral dogs on streets. After just a few generations of no human intervention regardless of the breeds that form them they begin to look alike, the coat begins to shorten, the tail becomes fluffy and is often carried over the back, they begin to look like spitz breeds and some develop a double coat, doesn’t take long to start getting woolfie again does it!!!

You cannot actually tell a wolf from a dog with DNA and even the shared mitochondrial DNA is 99% ! In fact Dogs have been reclassified as a species by the Smithsonian institute from Canis Familiaris to Canis Lupus Familiaris in light of this extremely close relationship!

But the best counter to this is the Panda story

The modern giant panda evolved during the late Pleistocene. Pandas were like their tropical bear species cousins, originally omnivorous but due to competition with other efficient predators, primarily the large cats, they began to specialise exploit plants. In order to do that they had to adapt somewhat over hundreds of thousands of years, yet their digestive tract has not changed drastically in that time period nor has their dentition, their body shape has changed to allow for the bulk the amount they eat. The Major concession is that because their digestion of highly fibrous food is still poor they must spend most of their time awake eating. They are now too big and slow to be omnivorous again but their teeth and digestive systems are yet to change significantly after all that time!!!

 

[KarynK]

And one to help those who want to stick with commercials though this grates a bit !!!! SO now we have it all in one place and I don't have to search for it!!

If you don’t wish to feed this way but want a better lot for your dog my advice is to pick a pet food that is quality, so a high proportion of meat and little or no carbs used for bulk like, cereals, rice and potatoes. Also one that is not cooked excessively, and uses only natural preservatives and stabilisers.

Here is a guide to pet food terms and their real meaning!
With meat as a rule the more simple the name the higher the meat content:

A label like Lamb dog food must contain 70 + % of actual lamb.

But something like Beef platter with vegetables requires 10% minimum.

Anything saying “with” lamb requires a 4% minimum and

Lamb flavour can contain none at all!

If in doubt check the label good quality foods will have meat listed as the first ingredient as they are listed in descending order by weight . It should also specify from what animal.

Definitions

Meat = clean flesh, skin, fat, organs and sinews.

By-products = anything else other than meat as above so includes feathers, beaks hooves, hair, horns, teeth, bones, feet, even unborn foetuses, etc.

Meal = rendered meat, basically all the leftovers are put into a vat, boiled, then dried out and ground into a fine powder. This process will destroy everything good and bad, bacteria, parasites and other possible pathogens but also nutritional elements which are artificially replaced afterwards. In the US this can contain traces of barbiturates used to euthanize the animals used to make it, including pets.

Digest = clean and undecomposed animal tissue which is broken down by enzymes or chemicals into a water substance and used as a flavour enhancer which is often sprayed onto the kibble in small amounts to make it appetizing. This is often referred to as gravy or not listed at all.

Cereal by-products = cheap source of carbohydrate and vegetable protein, not suitable for human consumption, it can be mixed or poor quality lower grade cereals.

There are only 2 standards of pet nutrition recognised by the pet food inspectors, growth stage (which includes gestation and lactation) and adult. So labels stating designed for something like “senior” are usually just marketing apart from small amounts of glucosamine or similar to assist with joint pain but usually in a quantity too small to assist. Sometimes you can find references to feeding trials; this indicates that the manufacturer has tested the product in accordance to strict guidelines.

Pet foods for meat eaters containing vegetable proteins, cellulose, wheat barley and maize are indicators of poorer quality foods.

Additives: antioxidants/preservatives have to be added to allow the kibble to last for around 12 Months, otherwise the fats would become rancid. Some of the common addatives are:

BHA (used to stop the fats going rancid) is suspected to cause stomach cancer, behavioural changes, hyperactivity, liver damage and fetal abnormalities and metabolic stress.

BHT (used to stop the fats going rancid) is suspected to cause liver issues, thyroid and bladder cancer and metabolic stress.

Ethoxyquin (synthetic antioxidant, also used as a pesticide) is suspected to cause cancer, kidney related problems and numerous other health issues

Propylene glycol (a water attracter that keeps food moist, also used as antifreeze) is suspected to cause the destruction of red blood cells.

Artificial Colours Red #2 and #40, Violet #1, Blue #2, Yellow No 5 and 6 are suspected to be linked to cancer, birth defects and skin lesions

More natural additives for stopping food going rancid are tocopherols and rosemary oil but they are not as effective and the shlf life is shorter.

ANY ingredients even natural ones that are pre treated with chemicals BEFORE being delivered to the manufacturer of a feed DO NOT need to be declared on the label. In fact some companies will do all in their power to not declare certain ingredients!

Basically if the label looks too short and simple it is probably far from complete, if you want to know how good your feed is ask questions of you manufacturer if you don't like or believe the replies vote with your feet.

This is a good guide to choosing the better food for your pets
http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet...ngredients.htm

The example table half way down this page shows how Burns compares quite badly in their labelling compared to Pets at Home!!!!! Bit of an eye opener
http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet_food_labels.htm

 

[willhegofirst]

Is there any evidance to show feeding raw is better in the prevention of Bloat? If so do you have to wait the hour either side of a walk to feed them.

 

[KarynK]

Sorry for tardy reply laptop is awating an exploratory op!

I have not heard of any dogs bloating on the diet and generally speaking bloat is down to food swelling and coming to a halt in the digestive process. Since a natural diet does not swell then it is very unlikely that it would cause bloat. If you stick dog food biscuits in a glass of water its quite scary how much it swells!

I know there are breeds that are “labelled” as being prone to bloat and perhaps most dogs from these breeds would benefit from raw diet, unless of course the “bloat” is related to intestinal abnormalities then it could be that they will suffer from intestinal problems no matter what they are fed, but I would hope that this would be a rarity!

What I would say is that breeds prone to bloat should never ever be fed kibble anywhere near a raw meal as that could result in real trouble!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Cor, Karynk, you are superb! A million thanks.

 

[gina2201]

Quick question. I have a Bernese Mountain Dog puppy who I bought just over a week ago, now approx 9 weeks. The breeder had fed the BARF/RAW diet for 7 year with success, never had a problem.

It's a new concept/idea for us and watching the puppy today, he was trying to pass a stool for a little while, and in the end, when I went to pick it up, it was a bone! Is this right?! It was decent length aswell which made me question it, about 2 inches maybe?

I am following the diet according to the breeder and the only bones he gets are from chicken wings which she fed the puppies and suggested.

 

[soloabe]

Gina i would add some oil to his meal and maybe a little more boneless meat.

 

[willhegofirst]

What treats do people feeding raw give their dogs? Our 10 month Spinone can be a little willful, so still gets treats for successful recall when out, at the moment she gets puppy markies or other small treats, but not sure this is the best thing to give her.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

What treats do people feeding raw give their dogs? Our 10 month Spinone can be a little willful, so still gets treats for successful recall when out, at the moment she gets puppy markies or other small treats, but not sure this is the best thing to give her.

I'm using puppy bones from Pets at Home (tiniest treats in the world!) on walks at the minute. I hear you can use cheese, cooked meat, sausage etc but frankly my pockets are already full of shavings and horse treats! My local pet shop does chicken treats but teeny packet, huge price.

I've given away all the markies we had, along with any other grain based treats. I'm hoping that after a couple of weeks, I can wean them off treats for recall-first day off-lead today.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

Hmmm - how about feeding raw to a greyhound with no teeth? She is struggling with the bones a lot and she has also lost condition since going onto raw from Skinners?

On Blackcob's suggestion I bought some pork ribs today, the other two loved them and will definitely have them again but Islay just couldnt manage them

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I just trawled the supermarket for pork stuff: there were belly pork slices for much cheapness. Could you blend them for her? Maybe small pieces of pork stir fry chunks?

If a dog needs to gain weight, chicken leg meat is good. Trip is probably not great for putting on weight. Raw egg is good over mince. I get chicken mince from the greyhound man and a raw egg stirred in would be full of protein/calories.

 

[Saby]

Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio

There's a huge debate about this still. Mine aren't deliberately fed veg but get ends of carrots etc when I'm cooking.

 

[KarynK]

Just to add, dogs do need a little vegatation in their diet.
They dont need much but a little is nessacary to maintain vitamin and mineral levels, especially the calciumhosphorus ratio

There has been a long debate about this, I don’t know that they need so much as want, certainly all their nutritional requirements are met by their natural diet of meat and bone and that could include some veg matter from the stomach of prey but that would depend on the prey they kill and their pack status as alpha’s get the pick of the kill and from the research choose the best meat cuts rather than stomach contents.

Dogs are scavengers and opportunists so will eat anything that comes their way so even wild dogs may cash in on fruit they come across, but certainly wolves in high country in winter would not get anything in the way of digestible vegetable matter for a very long period, since their prey are living off fat reserves and very high fibre content browse at that time of year.

Ian Billinghurst argues that dogs are omnivores but looking at their teeth and digestive system I would say that they are carnivores that may choose to be omnivores given their survival instinct and the food being available. My own dogs do like veg in their diet or they will find their own usually from the rear end of the horses! so they get a small amount but it has to be liquidised for them to get much out of it as they cannot breakdown plant cell walls easily that's a job for a herbivore.

Yes veg matter does supply some vitamins but weather most of those unless from ripe fruit or pre digested grasses is available for the wild dog to use is debatable and is supplied by their meat and bone diet anyway. It is this availability and adding in artificial substitutes that I think is causing dogs problems with some modern processed foods .

Dogs actually produce their own vitamin C so do not need to eat veg and fruit like we do, we would get scurvy if we didn’t get Vit C from our diet.

On a natural diet of meat and bone they do not need any veg to maintain the correct calcium phosphorus ratio, it is correct in the natural diet. Certainly feeding a dog lots of cereals will seriously affect that ratio leading to bone and teeth disorders as cereals are high in phosphorous and low in calcium instead of high calcium and lower phosphorous. Calcium is actually low in fruits, nuts and seeds and even in green veg a human would have to eat vast quantities to get much calcium from it and a dog even more so as they cannot break through the plant cell walls. They would certainly not get enough to counteract eating lots of cereals.