Another reason to boycott Baileys...

[ycbm]

Hmmm. Effectively, in the announcement the way it was written, they did clearly a accuse her of abuse.

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[Palindrome]

The video shows clearly an abusive practice though, the horse's hindlegs are having to fold under him in order to support what is being done to the front end. The fact it is a bungee is no better than side reins, perhaps even worst as the horse has effectively his pole tied in as well.
Good for Baileys, the petition is ridiculous.

 

[ycbm]

The video shows clearly an abusive practice though, the horse's hindlegs are having to fold under him in order to support what is being done to the front end. The fact it is a bungee is no better than side reins, perhaps even worst as the horse has effectively his pole tied in as well.

It may be the opinion of many people, including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

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[ihatework]

It may be the opinion of many people, including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

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Completely agree.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There’s a brief video clip on LR’s FB page of the bay youngster, whose name is Fin, being long lined recently. He is much less restricted in this clip, and you can see what a fabulous natural walk he has. He is, however, very unsettled in his mouth and is chomping constantly.

Unfortunately I agree that Baileys knee jerk reaction to drop LR may cost them dearly financially if this goes to court.

 

[JFTDWS]

Unfortunately I agree that Baileys knee jerk reaction to drop LR may cost them dearly financially if this goes to court.

I presume you mean their choice of wording in doing so, rather than the decision to drop her in itself?

 

[Palindrome]

It may be the opinion of many people, including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

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I don't know, with the rollkur debate there has been vet evidence that hyperflexion is detrimental to the horse. I wouldn't say the court case would be straightforward but there is definitely room for a defense there. You don't need to prove lasting damage either, just that it is abusive.

ETA: the H&H article says 7 seconds of video and they repeat it several times. I guess this is the crux of her "defense" that it only lasted for a short time, still abuse IMO.

 

[JFTDWS]

And since rollkur is banned by the FEI... I guess the question is, does tying a horse's face down with a "training aid" constitute excessive force?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I presume you mean their choice of wording in doing so, rather than the decision to drop her in itself?

Yes. I’ve posted previously that IMHO Baileys should have got out previously, before this latest upset.

You have to wonder what was going on behind the scenes for Baileys to issue the statement that they did, when they did.

 

[Velcrobum]

And since rollkur is banned by the FEI... I guess the question is, does tying a horse's face down with a "training aid" constitute excessive force?

IMHO a resounding yes.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know, with the rollkur debate there has been vet evidence that hyperflexion is detrimental to the horse. I wouldn't say the court case would be straightforward but there is definitely room for a defense there. You don't need to prove lasting damage either, just that it is abusive.

If I was suing them, I would say

The horse is not in rollkür, it does not have a rider on its back, there has been no research into to this common technique when used in breaking in a horse; vets constantly recommend a pessoa, a gadget that ties the mouth directly to the hind legs; this horse was left on elasticated reins for a very, very short time, and it would have to be post mortemed to prove damage, which clearly isn't going to happen unless it dies of something else meanwhile.

It's clear from the petition that theres no consensus that this is abusive. It's common amongst breaking yards to do this to 'mouth' a horse. I've seen a trainer of top British dressage riders (can supply name by PM) do it to the young horse of a friend of mine on the lunge.

While hyperflexion is banned in competition, one of the horses most photographed in it, Parzival, was also one of the longest lasting GP horses. I saw him compete at nineteen. So there is no clear cut case there either.

I think it's great that she lost her sponsorship, but for a company of that size I'm banging my head on the desk that they gave it to the office junior to write the post and not the legal department. Commercially, I think they're up shit creek without a paddle for reputational damage.

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[onemoretime]

This doesn't surprise me in the least. A lot of show producers think nothing of leaving a horse tied in pillar reins all night. They reckon it clears their mind!!!

 

[tristar]

If I was suing them, I would say

The horse is not in rollkür, it does not have a rider on its back, there has been no research into to this common technique when used in breaking in a horse; vets constantly recommend a pessoa, a gadget that ties the mouth directly to the hind legs; this horse was left on elasticated reins for a very, very short time, and it would have to be post mortemed to prove damage, which clearly isn't going to happen unless it dies of something else meanwhile.

It's clear from the petition that theres no consensus that this is abusive. It's common amongst breaking yards to do this to 'mouth' a horse. I've seen a trainer of top British dressage riders (can supply name by PM) do it to the young horse of a friend of mine on the lunge.

While hyperflexion is banned in competition, one of the horses most photographed in it, Parzival, was also one of the longest lasting GP horses. I saw him compete at nineteen. So there is no clear cut case there either.

I think it's great that she lost her sponsorship, but for a company of that size I'm banging my head on the desk that they gave it to the office junior to write the post and not the legal department. Commercially, I think they're up shit creek without a paddle for reputational damage.

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the basis of a case for abuse would be that when a horse walks it moves in four time, and therefore moves its head, or needs to move its head, even when ridden, the riders hands need to follow the movement, this is clearly wrong what is being done to this horse, also for a horse to carry its head in an advanced position takes a long time of schooling

and doing this to a horse could result in the horse going over backwards or falling on its side.

im sure baileys are aware of these facts

 

[TPO]

Ignore me, I missed about 5 previous posts saying exactly what I asked!

 

[JFTDWS]

Yes. I’ve posted previously that IMHO Baileys should have got out previously, before this latest upset.

You have to wonder what was going on behind the scenes for Baileys to issue the statement that they did, when they did.

Yes, that was my understanding of your previous posts - I was wondering you meant that their dropping her suddenly might have been a breach of a contract or similar in addition to the wording issue. I wondered if there was something I was missing!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It may be the opinion of many people, including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

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I cannot imagine that Bailey's Press Office did not run the statement past their legal team as a matter of course, before releasing it.

 

[Lois Lame]

If a court case involved a jury, I wonder what the outcome would be. A lot of non-horsey folk see right through the rubbish that us horsey people think is okay.

 

[ycbm]

I cannot imagine that Bailey's Press Office did not run the statement past their legal team as a matter of course, before releasing it.

Then why was it quickly withdrawn? If it was seen by a legal team they should be fired for incompetence. Most business people with some experience would have read it as several of us on the forum have and thought 'ooh, you don't want to be saying that in writing!'.

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[honetpot]

Just out of interest I had a look at the Baileys website. The LR blogg last entry is dated 24th September, no entry from HOYS, and no mention of her in the rider profiles.
As I thought its still a family owned company,so perhaps that lead to the quick decision. I have probabely used Baileys feeds on and off since 1982, when they sold bread meal and barley rings, which were really posh then.

 

[Cloball]

Does anyone else think its a bit odd timing for HHO to produce an article full of show cobs some of which are rather on the... Large side... *Dons tin hat*.

Apologies if it's part of a series I live under a rock mostly.

 

[windand rain]

Well She will likely get a lot of support look at what happened with the show judge and breeder in the pony world and that ended in a jail sentence and life ban. People are still supporting that person