Anthrophomorphism - or do horses have some higher emotions?

Wagtail said:
Our two jack russells are like this. They are full sisters from the same litter and neither is dominant. When we are not there (just watching them from a distance) they get on like a house on fire, hunt rats together, go out and come in together. It's them against the world. But if ever they are in close proximity and one of their human family comes close, or bends down to stroke them, all hell breaks loose and they have a full blown fight. :confused:
We've got used to it now, but we still find it very odd behaviour.
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It took me ages to spot it in the herd, because of course you hardly ever see them when you're not there :D - only if you are lucky enough to have a camera... or if you sneak up on them from downwind! It was especially the hay pile sharing in the winter - when I'm there and putting out hay (and they're hungry), there's all sorts of chasing and gurning and bottom biting. If I chance to drive pAst during the day, though, there's three peaceable horses eating strands of hay out of each other's mouths like boyfriend/girlfriend sharing spaghetti ;)

But it's definitely resource guarding. I like to feel flattered that I have at least some value to them :D
 
Our retired coloured mare took on sheepherding duties, looking after two ewes who had come to us as lambs with their mother. When mother died the mare kept an eye on them. When one of the (had been) lambs died we went to move the body, the remaining sheep was standing next to her, as soon as we got there the mare nudged her away and the two of them went to graze together. As we only had one sheep left and we weren't keen on her being left out on her own over night in winter, we tried putting her in the stable with the mare. They continued to live like that until the eventual demise of the sheep.
When we introduced a new mare to the herd, a 16.3 IDxHano, the 14.3 coloured cob was the last of the horses to be put in with her, we were going to let her meet the sheep later, however the cob had other ideas, pushed the sheep through the gate infront of her, screamed like a banshee at the new mare and took her sheep off to graze away from the new animal! The same mare also looked after a young girl who had had a difficult time, who came to live with us and our undemonstrative, no nonsense standing mare, allowed this girl to mess her about for hours and put a 'hay hat' on her, to keep her head warm. She never shook the hay off till the girl had gone back into the house!
 
Earlier this year i noticed our mare lying down in the field, nothing unusual there she does it often. She wasn't rolling or distressed, just chilling. My arab was really bothering her...nudging her with his head and pawing at her....eventually she got up, wandered off and lied down somewhere else. He followed her, nagged her again until she got up, walked off and lied down again....she wasnt distressed, rolling or anything......this happened about four times. I thought he was feeling frisky...she looked fine. Half an hour later she was colicking......
 
Hippona said:
Earlier this year i noticed our mare lying down in the field, nothing unusual there she does it often. She wasn't rolling or distressed, just chilling. My arab was really bothering her...nudging her with his head and pawing at her....eventually she got up, wandered off and lied down somewhere else. He followed her, nagged her again until she got up, walked off and lied down again....she wasnt distressed, rolling or anything......this happened about four times. I thought he was feeling frisky...she looked fine. Half an hour later she was colicking......
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Aw bless him. I hope she was ok.
 
There's no mystery to this, its just herd instinct. My old gelding allowed my youngster to get away with murder initially but now he is rising 3 he is a little more firm with him however they are still happy to share their hay. It's all about them preserving their own species that's all. After all if the youngsters never made it where would the species be?
 
Hippona said:
Yes she was fine thanks.....after the vet did his stuff and we had a sleepless night....she's never ailed a thing but shes 19 now and ive realised she's not indestructible :(
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They are such a worry as they get older. It seems that more and more things go wrong. Glad to hear she recovered okay.

lottie940 said:
There's no mystery to this, its just herd instinct. My old gelding allowed my youngster to get away with murder initially but now he is rising 3 he is a little more firm with him however they are still happy to share their hay. It's all about them preserving their own species that's all. After all if the youngsters never made it where would the species be?
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That is logical, yes, but you could apply that equally to humans, surely. That it is just instinct. We know different of course, but no reason why other animals cannot feel the same way.
 
My gelding liked foals. Rather too much. Tried to snatch them away from the mothers, and would follow them around all day.

Also had a donkey at the yard once. First few times he saw it he was petrified of it, until he realised it was a foal (or whatever baby donkies are called).

Did not like new horses sniffing around him. New horses generally got put in field nearest yard which you had to walk through when fetching in. He would tolerate new horse sniffing him a bit, but then if it annoyed him it would get ears back and faces pulled. If it carried on it got a boot! He was boss!
 
I think it is adorable when geldings go soppy over foals. They are not all like that. The other gelding that is in with the foal here chases him off quite a bit. He only lets him out first because he is scared of the gelding that is herd leader and who is besotted with the foal.
 
My previous horse was a real gent. He used to protect me in the field and chase other horses away. Even when he got old he used to love playing with the youngsters....i once actually saw him on his knees playing with a young 10 hh pony bless him
 
This is a fascinating thread with lots of great observations and food for thought. I'd like to add some thoughts about respect, following on from a recent thread on "Feeding, do you handle your horses when they are eating?", hopefully not too provocative. (Okay, it's a hobbyhorse of mine... so sue me! :cool:)

Personally, I don't think horses "respect" us any more than they "love" us - at least not in the same way as another person can. Whatever it is they are thinking or feeling, it just isn't the same as a human. Believing that they do can give us a warm feeling and I guess that's why some people continue in this belief.

The words "respect" and "love" are fine in some contexts. When we say that a horse respects boundaries, or treats frozen ground with respect, or has a healthy respect for the electric fence, it is clear what is meant. Ditto that a horse loves mints, to have an itchy spot scratched, or to be in the company of a preferred companion.

On the other hand, if we say "my horse respects me", what do we actually mean? What impression (possibly mistaken or misleading) does this give? Is there a danger of convincing ourselves that horses owe us a form of respect that is completely alien to them? And aren't we then setting ourselves up for trouble if and when practical consequences of this misunderstanding arise?

Even saying that a horse respects another horse is tricky. If a horse moves another horse out of its way, with the implied threat of aggression if it doesn't move - an action that we label with the term "dominance" - does the submissive horse respect the dominant? In a sense it does, of course. And yet, I think it's a mistake to assume that it is the same or anything like the kind of respect a person might have for a superior in an organization (say), or for parents, teachers or elders. We may have a respect and reverence for authority - even for the idea of hierarchy itself, but there is no evidence to suggest that horses have similar thoughts or feelings, despite the natural inclination to believe this.

Authority and obedience are, for us, two sides of the same coin. But do horses understand either of these in the same way as we humans do? I very much doubt it.

As Lucy Rees has written:
"[...] horses do not obey dominants. They avoid them. The only direct order one horse gives another is “get out of my space”, which does not help us much. There is no reason to suppose that they understand orders, or obedience, though they do understand pain and discomfort."

Horses can behave in an obedient way, for sure, but "obedience" implies more than just compliance or willingness. It implies that the reason they comply is because of what they think we represent, not simply because they have learned to comply and are comfortable with that - or, indeed, find it rewarding.

I believe horses' emotional life is more complex than perhaps some behaviourists assume. The closer we look, the more we see. For me, however, "respect" and "obedience" (in the sense of obeying out of respect) come from human culture/thinking and are therefore anthropomorphic.
 
I have always tended to doubt people who say things like it's just an animal and has no cares beyond it's food and shelter and procreation. Because of how we use animals taking this stance makes it's easier to deal with. We are getting more and more stories about how animals have shown empathy towards another species where there can be no benefit to their own type from getting involved . Until recently no one thought that whales would intervene on behalf of a different whale species. Yet it was caught on camera when whales intervened to try and save a humpbacked calf from Orcas and then hung about in the area ..possibly as a deterrent. There is an amazing story from NZ where dolphins saved a group of swimmers from a shark attack. They even called in back up from another pod to help and corralled the humans until they could be saved.

Reading some of the stories here is very thought provoking. I had an argument with the old boy I ride yesterday. I slapped him with the lead after he swiped at me with his head when I tried to get his halter on. He is not used to me doing this but his owner said I must be firmer with him. Well Charlie horse did not approve and continued to sulk for ages after while I was grooming and tacking him. Ears back and fierce faces :mad: I'm going back to my firm but gentle approach. :) and giving him the benefit if the doubt.
 
I know for a fact that my old girl had remarkable kindness and empathy - and it wasn't just me that noticed this. How many horses do you know, when seeing a strange horse in the field, would, instead of at best shunning them, and at worst attack them and drive them away, would immediatly go over and introduce herself and start grazing beside them? Some new liveries moved on a couple of months before she died, and their owner was gobsmacked by her attitude to them. Within two days she had made friends with their pony mare who liked her own space and wasn't in the field to be sociable. But my old girl persisted and won her over. Subsequently the little mare decided that having friends was not such a bad thing and joined the herd properly. A friend once asked if she could put her 4yo gelding who had just come off months of box rest, out with mine. He hadn't been in that field before and she carefully showed him where the water trough was, where the bridge into the next field was, and that there were interesting little calves just over the hedge. The next day her best girlfriend went out too, saw the interloper and immediately tried to drive him away. My mare chased the other mare away and protected the gelding. She then let the other mare came back and so as not to show favouritsm, kept herself exactly in between them both for the rest of the day. She hated trouble and just wanted a nice quiet life but would wade in and break up fights between other horses. She actively protected the old and young in the herd, would go around greeting every herd member every morning then select one to stay with for the day. The next day it would be someone else's turn. For a while there were donkeys in a paddock beside her field. Having got over her fear of them (well they'd did make noises like air-raid warnings) and touched one, she was then obsessed and would stand at the fence begging with her front leg to be let in with them. Two of them were keen play-fighters and she would watch anxiously at the fence because she couldn't intervene. On one occasion a new older horse arrived on the yard and she took an instant dislike to him and would pull horrible faces at him when she passed his stable. I don't know what it was about him because she'd never been like that with anyone else. On the first day he went out in the field he was horribly bullied by a young gelding. She watched from a distance for a while, then went over and gave the new horse her support by grazing beside him. She knew the young gelding would then leave him alone then. Why should she do this for a horse she didn't like? Another time I arrived to find the tiny rescue pony that had moved into the field, suckling away underneath her and she looked so happy with her "baby" - she was a maiden mare. She tended to be quite highly strung but was fantastic with children and would ignore all the screaming and shouting they did. I once found my friend's 4 year old boy standing under her belly brushing it. Several other liveries commented that their small children adored her and would ignore their own family horse or pony and go and cuddle her instead. A little 2 year old boy wanted to lead her back from the field one day and she carefully took tiny steps so that she didn't get ahead of him.

She was such a kind soul. She watched everything intently and I have no doubt that she was able to reason. She also had a great sense of humour and loved to play tricks on me.
I miss her.
 
A while ago I had a big TB gelding, nice boy, quite highly strung though so you needed to be on your wits. One day I came back to his stable to find a young teenager patting him hard on the face front on. I was about to open my mouth to shriek a warning when said teenagers mother appeared and, in the nicest possible way, managed to let me know that the teenager was mentally and physically handicapped. My flighty TB stood like a rock for this wriggly girl who was literally in his face and she ended up spending about 15 minutes with us, including me showing her how she should approach a horse. Not once did my horse react. Normally he would have had complete hysterics if anyone had done that!
 
fburton said:
This is a fascinating thread with lots of great observations and food for thought. I'd like to add some thoughts about respect, following on from a recent thread on "Feeding, do you handle your horses when they are eating?", hopefully not too provocative. (Okay, it's a hobbyhorse of mine... so sue me! :cool:)

Personally, I don't think horses "respect" us any more than they "love" us - at least not in the same way as another person can. Whatever it is they are thinking or feeling, it just isn't the same as a human. Believing that they do can give us a warm feeling and I guess that's why some people continue in this belief.

The words "respect" and "love" are fine in some contexts. When we say that a horse respects boundaries, or treats frozen ground with respect, or has a healthy respect for the electric fence, it is clear what is meant. Ditto that a horse loves mints, to have an itchy spot scratched, or to be in the company of a preferred companion.

On the other hand, if we say "my horse respects me", what do we actually mean? What impression (possibly mistaken or misleading) does this give? Is there a danger of convincing ourselves that horses owe us a form of respect that is completely alien to them? And aren't we then setting ourselves up for trouble if and when practical consequences of this misunderstanding arise?

Even saying that a horse respects another horse is tricky. If a horse moves another horse out of its way, with the implied threat of aggression if it doesn't move - an action that we label with the term "dominance" - does the submissive horse respect the dominant? In a sense it does, of course. And yet, I think it's a mistake to assume that it is the same or anything like the kind of respect a person might have for a superior in an organization (say), or for parents, teachers or elders. We may have a respect and reverence for authority - even for the idea of hierarchy itself, but there is no evidence to suggest that horses have similar thoughts or feelings, despite the natural inclination to believe this.

Authority and obedience are, for us, two sides of the same coin. But do horses understand either of these in the same way as we humans do? I very much doubt it.

As Lucy Rees has written:
"[...] horses do not obey dominants. They avoid them. The only direct order one horse gives another is “get out of my space”, which does not help us much. There is no reason to suppose that they understand orders, or obedience, though they do understand pain and discomfort."

Horses can behave in an obedient way, for sure, but "obedience" implies more than just compliance or willingness. It implies that the reason they comply is because of what they think we represent, not simply because they have learned to comply and are comfortable with that - or, indeed, find it rewarding.

I believe horses' emotional life is more complex than perhaps some behaviourists assume. The closer we look, the more we see. For me, however, "respect" and "obedience" (in the sense of obeying out of respect) come from human culture/thinking and are therefore anthropomorphic.
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I agree with most of what you say. However, I do think that there is a difference between a dominant horse and a 'leader'. The leader may be submissive to the dominant horse regarding resources, but the leader is the one that the others follow in the wild. I believe that the others can recognise a 'wise' and mentally balanced individual, and give them a kind of respect. There are situations, of course, where the dominant horse is also the leader.
 
TrasaM said:
I have always tended to doubt people who say things like it's just an animal and has no cares beyond it's food and shelter and procreation. Because of how we use animals taking this stance makes it's easier to deal with. We are getting more and more stories about how animals have shown empathy towards another species where there can be no benefit to their own type from getting involved . Until recently no one thought that whales would intervene on behalf of a different whale species. Yet it was caught on camera when whales intervened to try and save a humpbacked calf from Orcas and then hung about in the area ..possibly as a deterrent. There is an amazing story from NZ where dolphins saved a group of swimmers from a shark attack. They even called in back up from another pod to help and corralled the humans until they could be saved.
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Those are amazing and very moving stories. I sometimes think about some of the scientific experiments 'higher' animals are subjected to. I think we really need to think how ethical it is. For example, dogs such as german shepherds and border collies can have the equivalent IQ as a two or three year old human. Chimps have been shown to be able to do mathematics and sort numbers many times faster than humans.

fatpiggy said:
I know for a fact that my old girl had remarkable kindness and empathy - and it wasn't just me that noticed this. How many horses do you know, when seeing a strange horse in the field, would, instead of at best shunning them, and at worst attack them and drive them away, would immediatly go over and introduce herself and start grazing beside them? Some new liveries moved on a couple of months before she died, and their owner was gobsmacked by her attitude to them. Within two days she had made friends with their pony mare who liked her own space and wasn't in the field to be sociable. But my old girl persisted and won her over. Subsequently the little mare decided that having friends was not such a bad thing and joined the herd properly. A friend once asked if she could put her 4yo gelding who had just come off months of box rest, out with mine. He hadn't been in that field before and she carefully showed him where the water trough was, where the bridge into the next field was, and that there were interesting little calves just over the hedge. The next day her best girlfriend went out too, saw the interloper and immediately tried to drive him away. My mare chased the other mare away and protected the gelding. She then let the other mare came back and so as not to show favouritsm, kept herself exactly in between them both for the rest of the day. She hated trouble and just wanted a nice quiet life but would wade in and break up fights between other horses. She actively protected the old and young in the herd, would go around greeting every herd member every morning then select one to stay with for the day. The next day it would be someone else's turn. For a while there were donkeys in a paddock beside her field. Having got over her fear of them (well they'd did make noises like air-raid warnings) and touched one, she was then obsessed and would stand at the fence begging with her front leg to be let in with them. Two of them were keen play-fighters and she would watch anxiously at the fence because she couldn't intervene. On one occasion a new older horse arrived on the yard and she took an instant dislike to him and would pull horrible faces at him when she passed his stable. I don't know what it was about him because she'd never been like that with anyone else. On the first day he went out in the field he was horribly bullied by a young gelding. She watched from a distance for a while, then went over and gave the new horse her support by grazing beside him. She knew the young gelding would then leave him alone then. Why should she do this for a horse she didn't like? Another time I arrived to find the tiny rescue pony that had moved into the field, suckling away underneath her and she looked so happy with her "baby" - she was a maiden mare. She tended to be quite highly strung but was fantastic with children and would ignore all the screaming and shouting they did. I once found my friend's 4 year old boy standing under her belly brushing it. Several other liveries commented that their small children adored her and would ignore their own family horse or pony and go and cuddle her instead. A little 2 year old boy wanted to lead her back from the field one day and she carefully took tiny steps so that she didn't get ahead of him.

She was such a kind soul. She watched everything intently and I have no doubt that she was able to reason. She also had a great sense of humour and loved to play tricks on me.
I miss her.
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That sounds like one amazing mare. :)

Luci07 said:
A while ago I had a big TB gelding, nice boy, quite highly strung though so you needed to be on your wits. One day I came back to his stable to find a young teenager patting him hard on the face front on. I was about to open my mouth to shriek a warning when said teenagers mother appeared and, in the nicest possible way, managed to let me know that the teenager was mentally and physically handicapped. My flighty TB stood like a rock for this wriggly girl who was literally in his face and she ended up spending about 15 minutes with us, including me showing her how she should approach a horse. Not once did my horse react. Normally he would have had complete hysterics if anyone had done that!
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I do think they can sense vunerability and change their behaviour accordingly.
 
I think this is a super complex subject but I do think horses have a lot more feelings and emotions then we sometimes give them credit for. I think all animals do.
At the end of the day they live in our world, they are not wild animals anymore and through interacting with us every day they are bound to pick up elements of human nature. It's only logical when you look at it. Like any baby animal that is taught by it's parents to hunt, sleep, eat, socialise, horses will learn from us behaviour as they do from each other also. It must be very confusing sometimes to be a horse but surrounded by people, no wonder misunderstanding occurs. If they didn't pick up our behaviours then we wouldn't be able to train them to do a course of showjumps or how to react in traffic.
I think it's quite spooky how many human traits horses can pick up and how many of our traits they accept through exposure. I'm not sure they 'love' us like we love another human as at the end of the day they are an animal with that flight instinct but they definitly become familiar in our company, recognise us and feel safe with us and I think they become fond of us and in their way want to protect us. This is shown all the time and i'm sure all of us here can give examples of when our horses have shown us care and protection in their own way.
Just after riding my horse this morning he was being sweet and affectionate blowing gently on my face, similar to what he would do with a horse he liked but different as he was doing it in a 'human' way, the way he has been taught to interact around me (probably by me kissing his nose all the time!).
So when people say that we anthrophomorphise horses well they are bound to pick up our characteristics being around us all the time. A wild horse is totally different to a domesticated horse, and they won't share our ways or understanding at all as they have only learnt behaviours from their own kind, they still show emotion and depth of feeling though for each other. That's why we love horses so much, it is in their nature to be willing and kind.
 
I was also going to add, I do think we have a great responsibilty towards our animals. To treat them fairly and well. I really do think they understand and take in so much more then we realise.
 
fburton i could happily spend a day reading your thoughts on behaviour et al as it fascinates me:) I don't think we'll ever completely understand any animal and why they act the way they do as like us, they are far too complex. I don't think they think like us at all and while it would be nice and cuddlywarm for us to think they love us like we love them, i don't think they do.
Sometimes i'm not sure we have the words to describe their emotions correctly so we tend to use words like love and respect and dominance because they're the best way to describe it even if it's not totally correct. It sounds like anthrophomorphism but it's more our lack of understanding rather than the belief that they think like us.
did any of that make sense lol, :o
 
Wagtail said:
I agree with most of what you say. However, I do think that there is a difference between a dominant horse and a 'leader'. The leader may be submissive to the dominant horse regarding resources, but the leader is the one that the others follow in the wild. I believe that the others can recognise a 'wise' and mentally balanced individual, and give them a kind of respect. There are situations, of course, where the dominant horse is also the leader.
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You're right - they are not the same. The kind of respect afforded to a leader (as opposed to merely a dominant individual) is different again. I hesitate to call it "respect" myself, because it's too easy for the meaning to be smeared. However, as you say, there is a recognition of the qualities of 'wisdom' (or experience, which must correlate with age to some extent), 'good judgement' and steadiness in the face of potential danger. Horses have evolved to make the choice to follow the one (or ones) that they trust not to lead them into trouble, as a consequence of having the aforementioned qualities. This kind of respect can't be imposed - it has to be earned, by demonstating consistently over a period of time that an individual is worthy of trust - although there is also a innate tendency for younger horses to trust and follow older ones.
 
they are more intelligent that you think = some of them anyway ;)

this is a regular scenario in the field -

my mare is 'dominent' and defends her hay - but the old mare (her field mate) would ask and ask and ask and HRH would refuse - so old mare would suddenly leap away as if in terror - HRH was scarper (she pretends to be dominent but when chips are down looks for reassurance from the old mare ;)) so old mare quickly goes back to hay but looks about 'startled' still - HRH lets her share it to 'protect her' from the scarey thing :rolleyes:

you can almost see the old mare thinking 'fool' LOL
 
Ibblebibble said:
fburton i could happily spend a day reading your thoughts on behaviour et al as it fascinates me:) I don't think we'll ever completely understand any animal and why they act the way they do as like us, they are far too complex. I don't think they think like us at all and while it would be nice and cuddlywarm for us to think they love us like we love them, i don't think they do.
Sometimes i'm not sure we have the words to describe their emotions correctly so we tend to use words like love and respect and dominance because they're the best way to describe it even if it's not totally correct. It sounds like anthrophomorphism but it's more our lack of understanding rather than the belief that they think like us.
did any of that make sense lol, :o
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Yes, I very much sympathize with that point of view. In the end, it doesn't matter which words we use as long as horse's don't suffer on account of needless misunderstanding.

I'm also inclined to agree we will never fully understand them - but that's not a bad thing, is it?

And thanks for your kind words re my rantings and witterings. I often feel I tread a fine line between stimulating discussion and causing aggravation. :o
 
posie_honey said:
they are more intelligent that you think = some of them anyway ;)

this is a regular scenario in the field -

my mare is 'dominent' and defends her hay - but the old mare (her field mate) would ask and ask and ask and HRH would refuse - so old mare would suddenly leap away as if in terror - HRH was scarper (she pretends to be dominent but when chips are down looks for reassurance from the old mare ;)) so old mare quickly goes back to hay but looks about 'startled' still - HRH lets her share it to 'protect her' from the scarey thing :rolleyes:

you can almost see the old mare thinking 'fool' LOL
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Lol! :D
 
posie_honey said:
this is a regular scenario in the field -

my mare is 'dominent' and defends her hay - but the old mare (her field mate) would ask and ask and ask and HRH would refuse - so old mare would suddenly leap away as if in terror - HRH was scarper (she pretends to be dominent but when chips are down looks for reassurance from the old mare ;)) so old mare quickly goes back to hay but looks about 'startled' still - HRH lets her share it to 'protect her' from the scarey thing :rolleyes:

you can almost see the old mare thinking 'fool' LOL
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lol :D
I've the same but with geldings so the manipulation is not as subtle:rolleyes:

I’ve a dominant bully gelding who lives with a mini who is also bossy (but knows when to not pick fights due to being less than half my geldings size)
When I put out hay the mini will make a feinting bid for the big pile and big idiot gelding goes chasing after him teeth bared. Mini scarpers round lightning quick and grabs massive mouthful to trot off and eat in piece while gelding goes back to guarding fiercely. Rinse and repeat. Honestly no effort from mini, just clever manipulation. Mini is too clever for own good and his face is so “can’t believe he keeps falling for that” I have to laugh.
 
Some of these stories are lovely, and lots of good points well made.

I think horses (and pretty much any species really) have a lot more emotions and intelligence than they are given credit for. Using lions and wolves as an example, how can they coordinate an 'attack' so precisely? Even to the point that out of hundreds of animals, they all go for the same one?

Back to horses, I have an example from my TB mare, which happened at our previous yard. I had the two ponies in at the time and Amber was grazing. One of the ponies in the field next door managed to get into our field, and made a beeline for Amber and tried to attack her. Amber defended herself and I managed to get her into the stable (they were in the field) so I could catch the other pony. Said pony would not be caught, so I managed to shoo her out of my field into the schooling paddock.

During this time, Amber was trying to climb out of the stable. When I let her out, she stuck her head into the stable the boys were in, then proceeded to stand guard over them and me until the pony's owner arrived and moved her back. The interesting thing was whenever I started to go towards the school area, Amber would put herself between me and the fence and if I got too close, she would herd me away.

Another unusual behaviour was from my first pony. I was leading her out (aged about 6), and I slipped over in the mud. My pony attempted to get me on my feet by grabbing my hair and pulling! It hurt, but was sweet of her to try and help anyway
 
Wagtail said:
Anyone that knows anything about horses knows that you should get the dominant horse out of the field first and continue down the pecking order. Failing to do so can cause all kinds of problems such as the lower ranked horse getting crowded and threatened by the higher ranking horses, which can be dangerous for the person trying to get them out. I always follow this rule, without fail, and so it was not surprising I was apprehensive turning the six month old newly weaned foal out with the two big boys. At coming in time, I knew he couldn't be left until last and so thought I would get him out first. The two higher ranking boys just let him through, no bother at all. I would have real trouble if it were an adult horse. This has continued like this for 4 weeks now. The lead gelding has really taken him under his wing. He watched him being born through the bars of his adjoining stable and has been thoroughly besotted with the little mite ever since.

Anyway, back to the original question. This gelding obviously knows the foal is a baby and therefore makes huge allowances for him, including allowing him to eat from the same haynet (definitely not allowed if anyone else) and allowing him out first. Is this just instinct or is it empathy?
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We have a friends horse who hadn't been turned out with anything but a foal last year and is now 4-5 and the biggest horse on site.
When turned out with broodies she was clueless and didn't get warnings at all. Rather than getting annoyed that she didn't back down, they'd show teeth and touch her rather than biting when she stood on top of them. When she stands out in the rain when the rest of the herd shelters, she gets collected and brought back into the herd. When she got caught in the middle of an argument, she'd get moved out of the way etc. They absolutely knew that she wasn't making a point and was genuinely clueless.

Also when anything is sedated the others are all very gentle around and seem to know that there is something up.

We have two herds which run together and very nice to watch them. Mostly keep separate but if both are called over, they mix and the herd leaders have absolutely no problems together. They almost share responsibility on telling off if necessary too.

I think ours is a lot to do with being out with broodies though, find them a lot more tolerant and less bothered to confront others.
 
posie_honey said:
they are more intelligent that you think = some of them anyway ;)

this is a regular scenario in the field -

my mare is 'dominent' and defends her hay - but the old mare (her field mate) would ask and ask and ask and HRH would refuse - so old mare would suddenly leap away as if in terror - HRH was scarper (she pretends to be dominent but when chips are down looks for reassurance from the old mare ;)) so old mare quickly goes back to hay but looks about 'startled' still - HRH lets her share it to 'protect her' from the scarey thing :rolleyes:

you can almost see the old mare thinking 'fool' LOL
Click to expand...

:D:D

My littlun tries this with OH. She seems to delight in trying to make him jump by throwing herself in the air and then sulks when he doesn't. I'm for cuddles, he's for games. He's also taught her to play fetch :rolleyes: greatly useful for spooks though as when something moves in the field/ makes a loud sound she simply thinks there's a dog toy out there for her to find :rolleyes:
 
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