Anxiety or Enthusiasm?

Ample Prosecco

Ample Prosecco

Still wittering on
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13 October 2017
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I know anxious horses rush fences. And so do keen ones. So how can you tell the difference?

When I first got Amber I discovered she was very green and very bold. So her response to both anxiety and enthusiasm is to launch at the fence. Sometimes it was obviously anxiety - she feels tense, her ears are back. Other times she feels super keen - ears pricked, just giving off 'happy' vibes. Other times she jumps fences I don't even want her to jump - just random fences that cross her eye line. What's that all about?

So sometimes I am just unsure about how she is feeling.

TPO made a very good point on a different thread about anxiety - could Amber be anxious?

I have been looking at old videos. Here is our round at Eland. To me she looks and feels relaxed, happy and controlled. I was under instructions to keep her under wraps so we do have some time faults but she was not massively strong. She does over jump a few but to me it felt like a sort of 'this is easy - weee' kind of way. But I am doubting everything now, so if anyone seems something different on the video please tell me!

 
No Amber doesn’t strike me as particularly anxious, but from an Eventing perspective I would say she is uneducated but keen to do the job and makes up answers to questions if she isn’t being given sufficient direction.
It’s not a criticism, you know I think the mare is good and you have done remarkably well to get to where you are given your inexperience.
 
She looked to be enjoying the round to me, there were just a couple of places where I wondered how she was feeling, she started to shake her head as the light changed (in and out of shade) and looked a bit tired towards the end but it was a good round. Have you increased the heights you are asking her to jump since then? Could that be causing her anxiety?
 
I was thinking about this on your other thread, watching her, and you, on this video I would say, and I don't mean it to be derogatory, that you look like a pair of amateurs having fun, you are leaving most of the decision making to her, which is fine, she is not as educated as she could be to make it look as easy as some so gets in a bit deep at times, over jumps into the combinations but has the ability to get out as you are not going too fast so you get away with it, she has become stronger at times and this is probably more due to lack of direction from you than anxiety although being a mare she is probably a little worried at times especially if she gets something wrong.

I think she will come back a much easier ride, she should have more idea about going through the gears and moving forward you should be able to learn a bit more about what she requires from you, I would get your stirrups up a hole or two, guessing a different saddle will really help, aim to have you in more of a 2 point and up a gear between fences and clearly sitting to bring her back before a fence rather than her moving at much the same pace throughout, shorter reins would also help so as you approach a fence she comes back to you and the canter becomes a little more contained, it is something ours learn on the flat and we do a fair amount of before they go xc.
 
There may well be a level of anxiety at the moment though because I would imagine, given her fairly sensitive nature, she is being ridden my someone new to her and presumably also being reined in - she is used to generally doing as she pleases and she will now be ridden a bit differently.
 
Thanks everyone. Useful feedback.

I know I am over-horsed. I would never have actively chosen a horse like Amber. But I adore her. I love her enthusiasm, courage, intelligence, work ethic, beauty. So I decided a long time ago I just needed to get myself good enough to ride her. Which is very much a work in progress! We will get there.... And yes we are very much amateurs having fun!

No PAS that was a stiff 90 course and she has only ever competed over 80 or 90. I think what Harry is seeing are early season hi jinks? Or maybe anticipated pain from the saddle? Or as IHW says a but if anxiety from being ridden much more proactively. I don;t know. He has increased the heights just one one schooling outing but she was rushing and over jumping smaller fences too at first before settling. He does not think she is anxious but just a bit rude and 'too brave' so she jumps without assessing the question or listening to direction.
 
I didn't watch that video and think that the horse in it was anxious but many of the jumps did not look comfortable to me or that horse and rider were "together" or harmonious. If I was to be really picky could some of the head tossing/snatching/pulling be anxiety/rushing to get the fence over and done with? Even although you were riding to keep a lid on her it still appears (to me only) that A was calling a lot of the shots and changing the rhythm to jump out of etc as she pleased.

As an aside because it may be a factor I remember you posting jumping pics at an event re your position (possibly a saddle question). I thought in those photos you looked to be falling out to your right with the left stirrup shorter. I (again, maybe only me) can see that again in this video. It may account for some of the (mild) twisting that A displayed over some of the jumps in the vid. I don't know if you've changed saddles since then etc but not being straight might also account for some of her not so straight approaches. Not having a go, I'm as crooked and collapsed as they come so hyper aware of it, just trying to think of things that may be a contributing factor to A's way of going.

I think IHW has hit the nail on the head. Not that my thoughts are worth jot but I think that there are some holes in A's education somewhere and she compensates by doing what she does. I don't know the answers but I know it is unlikely to be a quick fix. I don't think she is very rideable from what little I've seen and read; you are always having to make compromises and handle with kid gloves. I know she's a mare, ginger, reactive and so on but I just don't think it should be that hard on you to do what you want to do. You invest so much in your training, look outside of the box, consider teachings from a variety of different sources and methods and I just feel a bit heart broken for you as I think you deserve (yes, yes I know horses don't operate like that and neither does life) to be getting more back and reaping the rewards of your efforts.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks everyone. Useful feedback.

I know I am over-horsed. I would never have actively chosen a horse like Amber. But I adore her. I love her enthusiasm, courage, intelligence, work ethic, beauty. So I decided a long time ago I just needed to get myself good enough to ride her. Which is very much a work in progress! We will get there.... And yes we are very much amateurs having fun!

No PAS that was a stiff 90 course and she has only ever competed over 80 or 90. I think what Harry is seeing are early season hi jinks? Or maybe anticipated pain from the saddle? Or as IHW says a but if anxiety from being ridden much more proactively. I don;t know. He has increased the heights just one one schooling outing but she was rushing and over jumping smaller fences too at first before settling. He does not think she is anxious but just a bit rude and 'too brave' so she jumps without assessing the question or listening to direction.
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I must have missed another thread, I think. But I do think that pain from a saddle can cause problems, even after the saddle has been changed. I also think that saddles can cause problems jumping that are hard to pick up at a saddle-fitting.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks everyone. Useful feedback.

I know I am over-horsed. I would never have actively chosen a horse like Amber. But I adore her. I love her enthusiasm, courage, intelligence, work ethic, beauty. So I decided a long time ago I just needed to get myself good enough to ride her. Which is very much a work in progress! We will get there.... And yes we are very much amateurs having fun!
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You should see me on my mare if you think you're over-horsed! I don't think you look over-horsed in the slightest. You look like a great team to me.
 
TPO said:
You invest so much in your training, look outside of the box, consider teachings from a variety of different sources and methods and I just feel a bit heart broken for you as I think you deserve (yes, yes I know horses don't operate like that and neither does life) to be getting more back and reaping the rewards of your efforts.
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For all my whingeing and over analytical hand wringing, having her has been the most rewarding 3 years of my horsey life. BE80T was the 'ultimate dream' and we did that. BE90 seemed as far away as the moon when I was considering BE80 and we have done that too. I still have to pinch myself about that! Maybe I might have progressed faster on an easier horse, but the joy of riding Amber is that I know she won't stop. Stopping seems to cause more issues and falls among my friends than anything else. So while she is tricky she is also fantastically confidence giving because I trust her to get me to the other side. Riding her feels an absolute privilege. I beam all over my face after a XC run.

I am just having a bit of a hard time getting the chucking-me-off-twice-in-10 minutes issue out of my head. The real problem with breaking something is you can't just get straight back on but have to wait weeks or months fretting before getting the chance to lay the demons to rest.
 
ihatework said:
No Amber doesn’t strike me as particularly anxious, but from an Eventing perspective I would say she is uneducated but keen to do the job and makes up answers to questions if she isn’t being given sufficient direction.
It’s not a criticism, you know I think the mare is good and you have done remarkably well to get to where you are given your inexperience.
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exactly this.
I'm no expert, it's 10 years since I last left the start box. She didn't look anxious at all to me, she looked like she was sort of just lobbing around quite happily. She's a powerful mare, a 90cm course is well within her capability so you get away with a lack of technique and rideability because she can just sort it out for you both. I think that's why she gets underneath things and then appears to balloon them - she can't adjust her stride to meet the fences at the right spot (and I mean this in a constructive way but it looks like you're sort of coasting along with the handbrake partially on rather than really riding together with her in a partnership).
She's not really overjumping in that video, she makes awkward jumps because of a lack of technical capability - this is where it might show in more "freestyling" from her (rushing/overjumping) over bigger fences because she hasn't learned at the lower levels *how* to do jumping well.

I agree with PPs that I think while it seems important to you for someone else to get the first BE of the season high jinks out of the way, make sure he is doing enough of the low level boring basic stuff to teach her how to stay responsive, take instruction and be mentally and physically adjustable because that's the bit that will pay off when she comes back to you.
 
to add, when I was eventing I had one very keen horse that was physically a bit limited (small and cobby) so we really had to learn how to get the technical bit right, because I didn't have oodles of speed, height and power to get us out of trouble. Mine was different because she would run into a fence and realise she was wrong, and then duck out rather than wang over it with a grin on her face like Amber does so I think it made me hyper aware of the need to get that right to avoid a bunch of 20 pens.

The other horse I rode was a bit in between because while physically more able (TB) she also lacked a bit in terms of assessing the questions and being rideable and I have to say I found that a bit hair raising - I never felt like she really understood the job particularly well, compared to Millie who would suss a fence easily. I was forever expecting her to tip up somewhere as she would bowl on a bit blindly.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks everyone. Useful feedback.

I know I am over-horsed. I would never have actively chosen a horse like Amber. But I adore her. I love her enthusiasm, courage, intelligence, work ethic, beauty. So I decided a long time ago I whereas just needed to get myself good enough to ride her. Which is very much a work in progress! We will get there.... And yes we are very much amateurs having fun!
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I wish I had a pound for everytime I've thought "this horse is too good for me!" whereas I know others have said that I am over horsed. Neither is true and it's not true of you either. I just have to learn to ride better and not put myself into situations where I know I won't cope and have trainers whom I trust and can improve me. I also have always had my horses schooled by pros to make them a bit easier for me to ride. I think you have the same mentality as I do but are braver and eventing is much more challenging. You have the right attitude and are doing the right things. I stopped competing Rose last year because I knew I wasn't riding her well enough and was a bit of a passenger, sometimes it helps to take that pressure off and focus on the "getting better" bit.
 
Definitely not anxious but she does look very green. You don't look at all over horsed to me, but she looks to me to be consistently a tad late to fold her front legs up and in front of her. I would expect her to come back from a full time stay with a pro trainer with more connection back to front, and more lift in the front end which should lessen her need to over jump or dive at jumps when she misjudges things.

I feel your pain on trying to get back to where you left off after a broken bone. I never rode fixed fences the same after I bust my shoulder blade at Somerford, so I sympathise.
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This comment from your other thread is quite telling
"She over jumps when doing something she's not done for a while or just randomly every 10th jump or so for no obvious reason."

This does to me say anxiety on her part - I actually very much doubt it is for no reason, there will be a reason just that she is the only one who knows that reason :D

I do not think you are over-horsed in general terms but lessons / clinics with the right people (especially with your current understandable additional nerves) will be the key to unlocking both your potentials. Finding those people is not always easy - I am sure that the person Amber is with at the moment will help get her into a more educated place but will he understand you, your relationship with Amber and how to help you overcome if you are nervous when you start riding / jumping / competing again?
 
I don't think she is particularly worried, she is coping with what is in front of her. Please don't take this the wrong way but to progress, I feel you need to have shorter stirrups and perhaps look at your saddle too. You aren't established in your light seat and are hitting the saddle most strides. I would aim to be up off her back between fences and in front of a fence sit up to present her to the jump so she takes more weight onto her hind legs and hopefully she won't go so deep or over jump. Riding this way should help her improve her technique and become more responsive, as she is, there isn't any clear presentation to the fence so she meets each fence on whatever stride she happens to be on, rebalancing quietly in front of each fence (and I don't mean hooking back, just sitting up, half halt type adjustment in your position) should make for more consistency and better communication between you. I think you have the makings of a good partnership and with some adjustments, you should be able to progress with confidence and have fun.
 
EventingMum said:
I don't think she is particularly worried, she is coping with what is in front of her. Please don't take this the wrong way but to progress, I feel you need to have shorter stirrups and perhaps look at your saddle too. You aren't established in your light seat and are hitting the saddle most strides. I would aim to be up off her back between fences and in front of a fence sit up to present her to the jump so she takes more weight onto her hind legs and hopefully she won't go so deep or over jump.
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Just on this ^^
I found that the wrong saddle meant that all the 2 point practice and squats against a wall and work on my core and all the rest of it made no difference whatsoever. When I got the right saddle it was sooooo easy to be in 2 point and in balance. I think she's in a saddle belonging to the trainer at the mo? or have you got a new one AE? if you haven't then make sure whatever you get makes it easy to be in the right balance. I was amazed, tbh, I had a brand new jumping saddle that other people raved about and it just threw me off no matter what I did. I had been totally unable to get the muscle memory I needed fighting against that bloody thing.
ETA everyone just told me I needed to work harder (including on here ;) ) and I felt like I was never going to improve. but it made a huge difference overnight.
 
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I certainly wouldn't say anxious, a little green perhaps or a little uneducated. But you need to have these runs to be able to educate her.
I do agree with what some said above about maybe she is answering all the questions but IMHO I don't really see an issue with that, she's jumping very well, travelling nicely forward and looks very keen and up for the job. She looks like she's on the path to learning her job.
Super round I say! Don't be so hard on yourself!
 
well as a dressage person i thought your round was fabulous and i really enjoyed watching it. there were a few jumps where she got underneath them and ballooned but i felt it was because you had steadied her so she couldnt judge her take off. she is a beautiful horse and i liked the way you were quiet with your hands .. i didnt see and anxious horse just a pleasing c/c round from a promising combinaation.. dont be too hard on yourself...
 
Thanks everyone. You have all given me lots of ideas. I would like to think a change of saddle would help but I am not sure. I am buying one though so fingers crossed!! But I think I am just not a very balanced or effective rider. YET. But I can't be better than I am so there is no point beating myself up about it.

I don;t think I need a new trainer - it's taking so long because I actually have to get better at riding to do the things I am being asked to do. When she accelerates I lose balance so I am trying to re-balance her and maintain her rhythm when I am out of balance myself. So I overuse my hands instead of my seat, body position, core. And often when she jumps I take too long to get back into balance and so I am a stride or 2 late to get her back by which time she is nearly at the next fence. I know what I need to do but there is so much to think about that I just mess it up. Sometimes I do ride well - I look ahead better, stay in better balance, maintain a good rhythm, see a good stride and it just feels so easy. But then other times it is scrappy and horrid.

Anyway I have Plan D now..... I will ride Dolly! And leave Amber where she is for a bit longer. Then when I feel happy on Dolly I'll have lessons with Harry. Perhaps he does not need to compete her? Maybe I can do that as long as he has taken her out and about a bit? We will see.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks everyone. You have all given me lots of ideas. I would like to think a change of saddle would help but I am not sure. I am buying one though so fingers crossed!! But I think I am just not a very balanced or effective rider. YET. But I can't be better than I am so there is no point beating myself up about it.

I don;t think I need a new trainer - it's taking so long because I actually have to get better at riding to do the things I am being asked to do. When she accelerates I lose balance so I am trying to re-balance her and maintain her rhythm when I am out of balance myself. So I overuse my hands instead of my seat, body position, core. And often when she jumps I take too long to get back into balance and so I am a stride or 2 late to get her back by which time she is nearly at the next fence. I know what I need to do but there is so much to think about that I just mess it up. Sometimes I do ride well - I look ahead better, stay in better balance, maintain a good rhythm, see a good stride and it just feels so easy. But then other times it is scrappy and horrid.

Anyway I have Plan D now..... I will ride Dolly! And leave Amber where she is for a bit longer. Then when I feel happy on Dolly I'll have lessons with Harry. Perhaps he does not need to compete her? Maybe I can do that as long as he has taken her out and about a bit? We will see.
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I think some of the things you are mentioning we are all guilty of at some point or other. So I really think you are being hard on yourself, after all if it was that easy and we were all perfect everyone would be doing it!

Would looking into going to some XC clinics or maybe even arena XC help?
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks everyone. You have all given me lots of ideas. I would like to think a change of saddle would help but I am not sure. I am buying one though so fingers crossed!! But I think I am just not a very balanced or effective rider. YET. But I can't be better than I am so there is no point beating myself up about it.
.
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I just rambled on about it because of my experience. I posted a video of me going round a CCI* (old naming) and people told me I was bumping up and down on the horse and being a crap insecure rider and why wasn't I doing more 2 point to get better. When for the last 5 years I had been working my flipping socks off trying to get better ;) and then from Ride 1 in the new saddle I had the textbook position over a fence and the best 2 point I could have ever hoped for. The only thing that had changed was the saddle.

Until I found the right one I would never have believed how much of a hindrance the wrong one can be. I am sure that having had that experience i would cope better now in a sub optimal saddle but I just couldn't get to that point before then. I'm banging on again because I remember how I felt like I must have been really rubbish and like I didn't deserve to be competing when I was doing such a poor job of it all, especially when all the HHO experts basically told me as much. I did actually stop competing after that event. But I now know it wasn't me, wasn't a lack of effort or ability or any of that stuff. Be super super picky when you try new ones and get someone objective to watch or better still video you before committing.
 
I think people underestimate how important it is to get the right saddle, until the rider has a really well established position and strong core, which for the average one horse owner may never really be as good as it could be, then the right saddle can make a huge difference, equally the wrong one can be a hindrance as as MP has said can stop the rider developing the strong position they are aiming for which is so important for riding xc and even more so when trying to bring on a green horse.

Any saddle needs to be tried properly over fences by the rider that is going to be using it, the last time I helped buy a jump saddle we tried several, jumped in those that seemed ok, tried a few more then went with the one the rider liked best that also looked as if it helped with her security, their xc rounds improved from the change and her position became stronger from having a saddle that did not work against her, horse was obviously happier as well even though the previous saddle had been fitted properly having a more stable rider made a difference to how he could move and jump.
 
Didn’t she come From Ireland? If so chances are that she has been taught to just jump what’s infront if her at a pace that takes her fancy out hunting. Get them over and stay in the plate.

Doesnt look anxious but I don’t think you both look to be on the same page and I agree that you look over horsed. She’s telling you what to do, why not get some lessons on a schoolmaster over jumps so that you can concentrate on yourself and improve how you feel then you will know how it should feel and work towards that?
 
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