Any barefoot experts on here?

[claribella]

I have recently had my horses shoes trimmed. I was getting them done by a barefoot trimmer but this time went with a farrier because I had left it way too long, she was desperate and he was around at the time. The farrier said he didn't take off as much as he wanted because it would have left her sore. I was happy about this because my trimmer tends to leave them a bit longer so she has a bit of waring space on the roads. I couldn't really tell the difference between the trim my barefoot trimmer does or what the farrier did but I've read in the past that if you are going barefoot then you should get in a barefoot trimmer. My question is what is the difference between the trim a farrier would do compared to the trimmer?

 

[AmyMay]

My question is what is the difference between the trim a farrier would do compared to the trimmer?

Your farrier will have trained for many years to learn his craft. A trimmer, might have read a book or been on a course for a few days........

 

[Miss L Toe]

Your farrier will have trained for many years to learn his craft. A trimmer, might have read a book or been on a course for a few days........

or not, personally I don't have any choice, my usual farrier trims all ponies alike, making a "perfect hoof", this makes my boy uncompfrtable for a few days til he adjusts to his natural gait, the other one who I almost had to plead with, rasped round the edges, and left it at that, said I was doing fine on my own and not to waste money.
I have a small farriers rasp and feed for feet, he can hack on tarmac to self trim or not, he self trims really unless stabled for a long time.
Going barefoot has made me much more hoof aware, it is the first thing I look at in detail in a horse. without the correct hoof pastern axis, I consider the whole leg to be under an un-natural strain. I don't think anyone has commented other than to say, the farrier is due " whenever". Farriery is inculcated into the psyche, but I don't think it is necessary for many ponies.

 

[claribella]

My trimmer actually trained as a farrier but when he realised how awesone barefoot was, he decided to go down that route and that route only which probably lost him lots of money!!

I was actually letting my girl self trim but unfortunately I've had a period where things have got a bit difficult at home so she hasn't been ridden out on the road. Her feet did get long but I just wondered if the trimmer would have had a different opinion to the farrier. The farrier said he left them longer than he wanted to because they were quite over grown and didn't want to make her sore but actually my trimmer would have only trimmed to the length that the farrier trimmed to because of the road work we do. I'm not sure if I should have got my bum in gear and got the trimmer out because I'm wondering if all the hard work I've put in with the transitioning might have been undone if he's chopped stuff off that was meant to have been left. I'm not sure either way and I'm not having a go at him, simply mulling over and wondering if anyone knew the technicallities.

Where did you get your rasp from miss l toe?

 

[ESH]

I used to have a barefoot trimmer when I first went barefoot with a Navicular horse. Now I have a farrier, one of mine self trims when he is in work and the other is a baby just turning 3yrs so not really able to self trim just yet.

The main difference I feel is they shouldn't take off as much as if preparing for a trim and the one big issue I have with my farrier is I have to watch that he doen't trim the frog away anymore than getting rid of scraggy bits hanging on, other than that just keep an eye on them and note if anything changes after they are trimmed such as unusual soreness.

Having had 3 horses barefoot for many years now, I have recently realised that diet is the key not to worry to much about the trim, If the horse does enough road work they will self trim.

and the other difference I have noticed between trimmer and farrier trims is the extra money left in my pocket

 

[cptrayes]

A good trim is a good trim. There will be no difference in a good trim, for that horse, whether it is done by a farrier, a trimmer who has trained extensively as many of them have (ask to see their certification) or even a trimmer who has no training at all but is a complete natural with lots of experience.

I am concerned about your trimmers claribella, because they both talk about "leaving foot to wear because you do road work". Your horse grows foot to replace what she wears on the road, they shouldn't be leaving hoof there so that she can wear it down, otherwise they will stop the natural formation of the thick sole and sole callouses that she will create for herself. If they leave so much height that her frogs are not in contact with the floor when stood on flat concrete, that would really worry me.

 

[claribella]

Thank you that is very useful. Her diet is very barefoot friendly so thats encouraging to know. She is on a high fibre/low sugarstarch diet. Do you mean your farrier is cheaper than the trimmer. For me the farrier was more expensive than the trimmer but maybe because she was quite long so he had more work to do. Perhaps he's not always that price.

 

[Moomin1]

I have recently had my horses shoes trimmed. I was getting them done by a barefoot trimmer but this time went with a farrier because I had left it way too long, she was desperate and he was around at the time. The farrier said he didn't take off as much as he wanted because it would have left her sore. I was happy about this because my trimmer tends to leave them a bit longer so she has a bit of waring space on the roads. I couldn't really tell the difference between the trim my barefoot trimmer does or what the farrier did but I've read in the past that if you are going barefoot then you should get in a barefoot trimmer. My question is what is the difference between the trim a farrier would do compared to the trimmer?

I asked my farrier this question and the simple answer is:

A farrier who trims has done years of training
A barefoot trimmer has done a short course and read a few books

Barefoot trimmer charges twice as much as farrier, although my farrier said many farriers are now clocking onto this and calling themselves farriers and barefoot trimmers just so they can charge more to trim!!

 

[Oberon]

With so little training in comparison with farriers (which is a common myth nowadays) one wonders how some trimmers (including my own) manage to rehab written off horses with such little training then?

One wonders why (under the supervision of the farrier) an apprentice left my horse standing in pools of blood with no explanation of why?

Even my (beloved but uuber traditional) YO states simply that with the farrier trimming - her unshod horses were lame. But with my trimmer - her unshod horses are sound.

I'm not saying trimmers are better than farriers - but I'm saying don't discount all trimmers on here say.

There are excellent farriers and excellent trimmers out there - it's just a case of using whomever you find is best.

 

[Moomin1]

With so little training in comparison with farriers (which is a common myth nowadays) one wonders how some trimmers (including my own) manage to rehab written off horses with such little training then?

One wonders why (under the supervision of the farrier) an apprentice left my horse standing in pools of blood with no explanation of why?

Even my (beloved but uuber traditional) YO states simply that with the farrier trimming - her unshod horses were lame. But with my trimmer - her unshod horses are sound.

I'm not saying trimmers are better than farriers - but I'm saying don't discount all trimmers on here say.

There are excellent farriers and excellent trimmers out there - it's just a case of using whomever you find is best.

Agreed - good examples of both can be found.

I just think it makes more sense to find an excellent farrier who will charge a lot less than an excellent barefoot trimmer for the same job.

 

[soloequestrian]

I asked my farrier this question and the simple answer is:

A farrier who trims has done years of training
A barefoot trimmer has done a short course and read a few books

Barefoot trimmer charges twice as much as farrier, although my farrier said many farriers are now clocking onto this and calling themselves farriers and barefoot trimmers just so they can charge more to trim!!

And of course a farrier would have no bias at all in their answer to this question......

 

[Moomin1]

And of course a farrier would have no bias at all in their answer to this question......

No because he openly admitted he 'barefoot trims' and charges a hell of a lot more than he did when he used to just 'trim'!!! He said 'whatever takes the owner's fancy, if they want to believe there's a difference in the job I do if I call myself a barefoot trimmer then fine!'. He is a fantastic farrier and actually suggested for me to give 'barefoot' (or unshod as I call it!) a go with my mare to save money - but alas her soles are too thin and I see no point whatsoever to put her through agony when she is perfectly healthy and happy with shoes on.

 

[cptrayes]

she is perfectly healthy and happy with shoes on.

You are fooling yourself. She is happy but she is not "perfectly healthy" - she has thin soles.

It is not normal for a horse to have soles so thin that they cannot walk on them without shoes.

Unless your mare was shod for thin soles as a baby, she was not born with thin soles and I'm guessing that she probably developed them when many horses develop them, when she finished most of her growth at three or four when her metabolic rate dropped right off. Of course most horses are backed at that age and their owners usually simply assume that the work caused the foot problems, and shoe. But it's just a coincidence of timing.

Thin soles are generally caused by an inability to digest the amount of carbohydrate in the diet, with particular problems caused by sugar and especially grass sugar. Stripping sugar from hard feed, soaking hay for at last 12 hours in plenty of water and retricting daytime spring and summer grazing will usually result in a marked increase in sole depth and hardness.

The ones that are still not good on their feet after this very often turn out to have EMS, EPSM, IR or Cushings. For example, my friend has an IR mare who is not controllable with diet and her insulin readings are still sky high and her foot quality very compromised because of it.

 

[Moomin1]

You are fooling yourself. She is happy but she is not "perfectly healthy" - she has thin soles.

It is not normal for a horse to have soles so thin that they cannot walk on them without shoes.

Unless your mare was shod for thin soles as a baby, she was not born with thin soles and I'm guessing that she probably developed them when many horses develop them, when she finished most of her growth at three or four when her metabolic rate dropped right off. Of course most horses are backed at that age and their owners usually simply assume that the work caused the foot problems, and shoe. But it's just a coincidence of timing.

Thin soles are generally caused by an inability to digest the amount of carbohydrate in the diet, with particular problems caused by sugar and especially grass sugar. Stripping sugar from hard feed, soaking hay for at last 12 hours in plenty of water and retricting daytime spring and summer grazing will usually result in a marked increase in sole depth and hardness.

The ones that are still not good on their feet after this very often turn out to have EMS, EPSM, IR or Cushings. For example, my friend has an IR mare who is not controllable with diet and her insulin readings are still sky high and her foot quality very compromised because of it.

I'm sorry but I don't think you are in any position to tell me whether I am fooling myself over my mare's health! She is perfectly healthy thankyou, as many vets have confirmed. She is on a pure fibre diet with very little sugars and VERY restricted grazing.

Could you comment on why my old pony's feet crumbled when he lost a shoe, yet he lived until 40years?!

 

[Oberon]

Agreed - good examples of both can be found.

I just think it makes more sense to find an excellent farrier who will charge a lot less than an excellent barefoot trimmer for the same job.

Fine - if you are lucky enough to find one in your area.

Personally, I don't begrudge the money for the excellent care my trimmer provides for my horses.

 

[Moomin1]

Fine - if you are lucky enough to find one in your area.

Personally, I don't begrudge the money for the excellent care my trimmer provides for my horses.

That's fair enough!! I am more than happy with my farrier and the standard of care he provides for my horse's feet.

I do know how difficult it can be to find a decent farrier though.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm sorry but I don't think you are in any position to tell me whether I am fooling myself over my mare's health! She is perfectly healthy thankyou, as many vets have confirmed. She is on a pure fibre diet with very little sugars and VERY restricted grazing.

Could you comment on why my old pony's feet crumbled when he lost a shoe, yet he lived until 40years?!

Would that be a vet qualified in the same way as the ones who were prepared to put my rehab horse to sleep for his navicular and thin soles then? The horse that now hunts with no shoes on?

You told us that your mare is not healthy - she has thin soles. It's not healthy to have thin soles.

Why did you have to have a pony shod at all? He didn't have healthy feet either, did he?

Low grade digestive issues affect foot quality without being life threatening, that's why he lived to 40 years. For all I know, not having seen him, all that was wrong with his feet is that they were weakened by shoes, but by your own statement they were weakened by something.

 

[Moomin1]

Would that be a vet qualified in the same way as the ones who were prepared to put my rehab horse to sleep for his navicular and thin soles then? The horse that now hunts with no shoes on?

You told us that your mare is not healthy - she has thin soles. It's not healthy to have thin soles.

Why did you have to have a pony shod at all? He didn't have healthy feet either, did he?

Low grade digestive issues affect foot quality without being life threatening, that's why he lived to 40 years. For all I know, not having seen him, all that was wrong with his feet is that they were weakened by shoes, but by your own statement they were weakened by something.

Words actually fail me!!

 

[cptrayes]

Words actually fail me!!

As they do me about the number of people who are still led to believe by vets and farriers who know no better that crumbling feet and thin soles are "just one of those things that happen to some horses". They don't, they are created by man or by illness or both.

 

[MileAMinute]

There are clearly a lot of unhealthy horses in the world if you are judging them by their choice in shoeing (or lack of it).

FWIW, Meg is barefoot!

 

[cptrayes]

There are clearly a lot of unhealthy horses in the world if you are judging them by their choice in shoeing (or lack of it).

FWIW, Meg is barefoot!

There are plenty of perfectly healthy shod horses whose owners need them to have shoes because that particular horse needs exercise/a way or life/feeding that the owner is not able to provide for some reason.

But ones that have thin soles and crumbling feet are not among them. Just as in humans, the quality of the nails is a reflection of the health of the person, so it is in horses, only much more important when you walk in them.

 

[Moomin1]

Would that be a vet qualified in the same way as the ones who were prepared to put my rehab horse to sleep for his navicular and thin soles then? The horse that now hunts with no shoes on?

You told us that your mare is not healthy - she has thin soles. It's not healthy to have thin soles.

Why did you have to have a pony shod at all? He didn't have healthy feet either, did he?

Low grade digestive issues affect foot quality without being life threatening, that's why he lived to 40 years. For all I know, not having seen him, all that was wrong with his feet is that they were weakened by shoes, but by your own statement they were weakened by something.

With regard my old pony - I am afraid you will have to give me some time to track down the person who first put shoes on him approximately 50 years ago now for me to answer why he had shoes on. But if he lived to the age of 40, competed until 39, in heavy work, in perfect health, with shoes on, then I couldn't give a monkey's ass whether he had so called 'toxins' in his body or whether he supposedly had 'digestive issues'!!

As for my current mare, well, I shall immediately get her shoes taken off, cripple her and put her on bute for a while (which by the way is not natural either) and get a full blood profile taken to find out what the underlying problem is, irrelevant of the fact that she's as healthy as a slimmer's salad and 100% sound.

In my opinion - don't fix what isn't broken..

 

[Moomin1]

There are plenty of perfectly healthy shod horses whose owners need them to have shoes because that particular horse needs exercise/a way or life/feeding that the owner is not able to provide for some reason.

But ones that have thin soles and crumbling feet are not among them. Just as in humans, the quality of the nails is a reflection of the health of the person, so it is in horses, only much more important when you walk in them.

My mare hasn't EVER had a pin prick of a chip out of any of her hooves by the way, Cobrastyle can vouch for how healthy my mare's feet are.

She is a big 16.3 hunter type mare who the vet said has thin soles so advises never to remove the shoes. She has no health problems whatsoever and is a very basic easy horse to maintain. Therefore my suggestion is that there is bugger all wrong with her other than something that is in her breeding, just like some horses have sweet itch, some horses have navicular, some horses have bone spavin etc etc. And PLEASE don't try to attribute these conditions to shoeing of horses....

 

[Moomin1]

I don't see how this horse could be classed as unhealthy - my old pony at 34 years old. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=4646&pictureid=15620

 

[cptrayes]

But if he lived to the age of 40, competed until 39, in heavy work, in perfect health, with shoes on,
.

He didn't.

From your posts on a another thread he had concussion laminitis not once but twice.

There is a body of thought that concussion laminitis is caused by inadequate attachment of the laminae to support the foot, and this is much worse with peripheral loading of a shoe. I regularly canter my hunter on a road to keep him fit and on stone tracks while out hunting, and he has no concussion problems. But several years ago my other horse did the same (he bolted, it wasn't choice) before I sorted out his copper deficiency, and he got concussion lami.

He also looked perfectly healthy, bright, shiny and he was very full of energy. But his copper deficiency was giving him weak feet with little concavity, which changed once I started to supplement copper. He was rock-stomping sound at the time, you would never have guessed from his barefoot performance that there was anything amiss until the concussion.

 

[Moomin1]

He didn't.

From your posts on a another thread he had concussion laminitis not once but twice.

There is a body of thought that concussion laminitis is caused by inadequate attachment of the laminae to support the foot, and this is much worse with peripheral loading of a shoe. I regularly canter my hunter on a road to keep him fit and onj stone tracks while out hunting, and he has no concussion problems. But several years ago my "lami risk" horse did the same (he bolted, it wasn't choice) before I sorted out his copper deficiency, and he got concussion lami.

He also looked perfectly healthy, bright, shiny and he was very full of energy. But his copper deficiency was giving him weak feet with little concavity, which changed once I started to supplement copper. He was rock-stomping sound at the time, you would never have guessed from his barefoot performance that there was anything amiss until the concussion.

No - please get your facts straight - he got BRUISING of his sole/concussion LAMENESS (not inflammation of the laminae) from bolting on the road.

 

[cptrayes]

My mare hasn't EVER had a pin prick of a chip out of any of her hooves by the way, Cobrastyle can vouch for how healthy my mare's feet are.

She is a big 16.3 hunter type mare who the vet said has thin soles so advises never to remove the shoes. She has no health problems whatsoever and is a very basic easy horse to maintain. Therefore my suggestion is that there is bugger all wrong with her other than something that is in her breeding, just like some horses have sweet itch, some horses have navicular, some horses have bone spavin etc etc. And PLEASE don't try to attribute these conditions to shoeing of horses....

Yes vets often give advice like that about thin soles and don't know what they are talking about. It's well documented amongst people on this and other forums by people who have gone against their vets advice and found that they were wrong. For all I know, yours is right, but my experience is that he is not.

If navicular is not caused by shoeing then why does taking them off cure it and having a 3 months period without shoes on every year appear to help prevent it? Navicular appears to be caused predominantly by peripheral loading. There are examples of barefoot horses getting navicular but the three which I know of all had peripheral loading and were not engaging their frogs. The primary cause of peripheral loading is shoes, and therefore it goes without saying that the primary cause of navicular will be shoes if it is caused by peripheral loading.

Sweet itch is attributable in many cases to eating too much grass sugar. Many sweet itch sufferers can be reduced or even completely cured by removing grass from the horse's diet. I started a thread on the subject two years ago and was told of several examples as well as the one I owned. yes, I KNOW it's a midge allergy, but the horse becomes hypersensitive to the midge saliva as a result of a stressed system due to the grass sugars.

If it was in her breeding did you shoe her as a foal to prevent her thin soles being sore?

 

[cptrayes]

No - please get your facts straight - he got BRUISING of his sole/concussion LAMENESS (not inflammation of the laminae) from bolting on the road.

How the hell did he bruise his soles bolting on flat tarmac in shoes?????

Was it not lameness in the feet then, but in another part of his legs?

 

[Moomin1]

Yes vets often give advice like that about thin soles and don't know what they are talking about. It's well documented amongst people on this and other forums by people who have gone against their vets advice and found that they were wrong. For all I know, yours is right, but my experience is that he is not.

If navicular is not caused by shoeing then why does taking them off cure it?

Sweet itch is attributable in many cases to eating too much grass sugar. Many sweet itch sufferers can be reduced or even completely cured by removing grass from the horse's diet. I started a thread on the subject two years ago and was told of several examples as well as the one I owned.

If it was in her breeding did you shoe her as a foal to prevent her thin soles being sore?

Navicular is by no means always 'cured' by taking shoes off - on the contrary many horses with it only benefit with egg bars on.

With regard my mare - again give me some time to locate who bred her and put shoes on her 8 years ago and I will ask!

As for sweet itch -can you explain why Boett rugs are so succesful then in controlling it - even when the horse remains on grazing?

Just because you have had one incident where you have disagreed with your vet and your horse is now hunky dorey doesn't mean that you should be 'diagnosing' what is wrong with other people's horses whom you have never even seen or don't know the background of.

 

[Moomin1]

How the hell did he bruise his soles bolting on flat tarmac in shoes?????

Was it not lameness in the feet then, but in another part of his legs?

Do you know where in the foot the laminae is located? And do you understand what a bruised sole is?!!! It was ON his feet - not in his feet! And how did you know it was flat tarmac or what it was that he stood on? Too many assumptions.......

If I tread on a sharp stone with bare feet I generally get a bruise on my skin - not in the joints of my toes...