Any barefoot experts on here?

[cptrayes]

Navicular is by no means always 'cured' by taking shoes off - on the contrary many horses with it only benefit with egg bars on.

There is a 20% chance that egg bars and conventional medication will bring a horse with navicular back to full work. There is an 80% chance that a proper barefoot rehab with someone who knows how to do it will bring a horse back to full work.

As for sweet itch -can you explain why Boett rugs are so succesful then in controlling it - even when the horse remains on grazing?

Because it's an allergy to midge saliva, which the rug prevents from contacting the skin. With many sweet itch sufferers, if you stop them from eating too much grass sugar, but allow contact with midge saliva, their symptoms will either go or be very reduced. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but my belief is that the allergic reaction comes because of an overtaxed liver trying to deal with gut toxins in the blood.

 

[cptrayes]

And how did you know it was flat tarmac or what it was that he stood on? Too many assumptions.......

You said it was a road.

Yes, I do know where the laminae are, all around the foot and when they break and bleed they cause what looks like "bruising" in the soles.

I personally think if your pony bolted on a road like you said that he was more likely to have concussion laminitis than sole bruising caused from outside the foot. But of course I haven't seen him and can't be sure.

 

[Moomin1]

There is a 20% chance that egg bars and conventional medication will bring a horse with navicular back to full work. There is an 80% chance that a proper barefoot rehab with someone who knows how to do it will bring a horse back to full work.




Because it's an allergy to midge saliva, which the rug prevents from contacting the skin. With many sweet itch sufferers, if you stop them from eating too much grass sugar, but allow contact with midge saliva, their symptoms will either go or be very reduced. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but my belief is that the allergic reaction comes because of an overtaxed liver trying to deal with gut toxins in the blood.

Oh the pain of it.... are you seriously saying that if we remove all sweet itch sufferers from access to grass, and remove their treatment/rugs etc that they will be cured?!! WTF, are you for real?!! How come then I have come across many EMACIATED horses who have been kept in an open ended barn with NO food for weeks and yet they have still been bald as a baboon's ass and rubbing their skin off with sweet itch - only to be controlled by rugging and conventional treatments?!!

Again, you are making wild assumptions as to how things work in a horse's body and how things are caused!! No scientific proof whatsoever behind any of your beliefs in this post.
Sorry, this is nothing personal, but honestly I have heard it all now!

 

[cptrayes]

Oh the pain of it.... are you seriously saying that if we remove all sweet itch sufferers from access to grass, and remove their treatment/rugs etc that they will be cured?!!

Can you read? Did I say "all"? No.

I have personal experience of one, I was so gobsmacked about what happened to him that I posted asking for other people's experiences and found several more, some supported by their vet's opinion. It's my belief that they are the tip of the iceberg.

Sweet itch cases have rocketed since fat horses became the norm. I believe that it is connected.


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=389045

 

[Moomin1]

Can you read? Did I say "all"? No.

I have personal experience of one, I was so gobsmacked about what happened to him that I posted asking for other people's experiences and found several more, some supported by their vet's opinion. It's my belief that they are the tip of the iceberg.

Sweet itch cases have rocketed since fat horses became the norm. I believe that it is connected.

Right, ok, fair enough - let's call this a night!!! I don't believe in holistic mumbo jumbo I'm afraid and whilst I CAN see the benefits of barefoot, and understand some of the concepts, I really am going to have to curb my conversation there I'm afraid!

Please don't try and be diagnosing people's horses on here though - you take it beyond advice and are almost insinuating these things are 'definate'. Only a qualified vet should be making these decisions, despite what your views of vets are.

 

[cptrayes]

despite what your views of vets are.

Some views of some vets, not all views of all vets, please don't make the mistake you made last time.



I'm not into holistic mumbo jumbo either. I'm into the scientific point of view that the gut of the modern horse evolved from an animal eating scrub type forage and travelling miles in a day to find it. I believe that the subsequent evolution of the horse has not changed the basic requirements of the horse to eat a scrubby forage diet and that we unbalance that with feeding them grass designed for maximum milk production of a short-lifed dairy cow and commercial food stuffed full of molasses at our peril.

Touchy feely tree hugger I am not. Evidence based I am, especially when I see it with my own eyes.

 

[claribella]

Ah wow I thought loads of barefoot experts had come out of the woodwork over night Lol!!

 

[cremedemonthe]

Ah wow I thought loads of barefoot experts had come out of the woodwork over night Lol!!

Bet you wish you hadn't asked!

 

[claribella]

Yeah! Lol! My husband and I were laughing this morning over how only on a forum can you ask such an innocent question but then create a war! Lol!
I did learn some interesting stuff through that (heated) discussion though. Thanks to everyone who commented

 

[foxy1]

On the point of sweet itch; I bought my horse cheap from the stud as he had awful sweetitch.
For the first year I had him he lived out with a boett rug and lotions and potions, no change to the sweet itch, then I started on a no sugar (barefoot) diet.He improved year by year and now 3 years on he has no sign of it whatsoever.
I don't use any topical lotions, not even fly spray, turn him out with no rug at all in all the midges (he's out at night in summer so dawn and dusk) I feed a mineral balanced diet having had my forage analysed. Sweetitch gone.

 

[Goldenstar]

Agreed - good examples of both can be found.

I just think it makes more sense to find an excellent farrier who will charge a lot less than an excellent barefoot trimmer for the same job.

My trimmer is cheaper than my farrier.

 

[cptrayes]

On the point of sweet itch; I bought my horse cheap from the stud as he had awful sweetitch.
For the first year I had him he lived out with a boett rug and lotions and potions, no change to the sweet itch, then I started on a no sugar (barefoot) diet.He improved year by year and now 3 years on he has no sign of it whatsoever.
I don't use any topical lotions, not even fly spray, turn him out with no rug at all in all the midges (he's out at night in summer so dawn and dusk) I feed a mineral balanced diet having had my forage analysed. Sweetitch gone.

Exactly the same as mine, rugs and lotions thrown away, but gone in a year in his case (but then he's a diabetic and was off grass completely too). I wonder how many more poor sorry itchy horses out there would be cured if their owners wanted to go barefoot and discovered what an indicator of overall health a slighty footie foot is?

Lucky you to get him cheap because of it and then cure it I paid a pound for mine, but then he did have navicular as well and barefoot cured that too. He was jumping over a metre yesterday

 

[wellsat]

My boys are both trimmed by a farrier who is really interested barefoot and he rates barefoot experts such as Nic Barker very highly.

Don't assume that all barefoot trimmers are cowboys and that all farriers are experts, there are good and bad in any profession. Just because a farrier did a 4yr apprenticeship many years ago does not mean they are good at their job. If all farriers were so good we wouldn't have so many lamenesses caused by hoof imbalance.

The only problem with barefoot trimming is that it is an unregulated profession, the same as equine dentistry, so be careful to check the qualifications of anyone you use and ask for references. I would perfectly happy to use a registered UKNHCP trimmer, just not a random that bought themselves some rasps and gives trimming a bad name.

 

[RolyPolyPony]

With so little training in comparison with farriers (which is a common myth nowadays) one wonders how some trimmers (including my own) manage to rehab written off horses with such little training then?

One wonders why (under the supervision of the farrier) an apprentice left my horse standing in pools of blood with no explanation of why?

Even my (beloved but uuber traditional) YO states simply that with the farrier trimming - her unshod horses were lame. But with my trimmer - her unshod horses are sound.

I'm not saying trimmers are better than farriers - but I'm saying don't discount all trimmers on here say.

There are excellent farriers and excellent trimmers out there - it's just a case of using whomever you find is best.

Couldnt agree more with this! I have a FANTASTIC trimmer who most definately did more than a short course and read a few books to train! She has many rehab horses going to hers who, literally cant walk when they arrive, to galloping over all sorts of surfaces with rock crunching feet by the time they leave.

Also ... if a farrier has done SO much training, why did my friends horse have his feet left around 2 inches longer than they should be, after a farrier had quickly put a rasp over them and said they were fine, the poor lad hated having his feet picked up because they were so sore!

I'm also not saying all farriers are cr*p and all trimmers are amazing, there are good and bad for both. I just think it's wrong to think trimmers dont train whereas farriers do.

 

[Moomin1]

It does make me laugh, I have just done a search on here about barefoot problems and there are so many threads with people experiencing problems with barefoot horses - yet apparently CPTrayes says that being barefoot solves everything?!

What's the difference between a shod horse who has thin soles, and a barefoot horse that keeps getting a recurring abscess and hole in the sole? Apparently, a shod horse who has thin soles is unhealthy because it is shod, so what's the excuse for the latter?

 

[RolyPolyPony]

It does make me laugh, I have just done a search on here about barefoot problems and there are so many threads with people experiencing problems with barefoot horses - yet apparently CPTrayes says that being barefoot solves everything?!

What's the difference between a shod horse who has thin soles, and a barefoot horse that keeps getting a recurring abscess and hole in the sole? Apparently, a shod horse who has thin soles is unhealthy because it is shod, so what's the excuse for the latter?

often shoeing a horse can mask a problem. Shoeing a horse restricts the blood flow(unshod horses' feet will spread out ever so slightly when it puts it foot down, shoes stop this happening) ... if we had restricted blood flow this would be seen as unhealthy so why should it be seen any differently in a horse?

 

[Oberon]

It does make me laugh, I have just done a search on here about barefoot problems and there are so many threads with people experiencing problems with barefoot horses - yet apparently CPTrayes says that being barefoot solves everything?!

What's the difference between a shod horse who has thin soles, and a barefoot horse that keeps getting a recurring abscess and hole in the sole? Apparently, a shod horse who has thin soles is unhealthy because it is shod, so what's the excuse for the latter?

I'm not sure what axe you have to grind - the OP was asking for advice on BF.

I don't think this is the place to continue a personal vendetta against a particular poster.

If CPTrayes has offended you, perhaps you should take that up with her, rather than hijacking someone else's thread?

I can't really respond to the threads you mention without knowing which ones you are talking about.

I can safely say that none of the barefooters on here (inc CPTrayes) have said a thin soled horse is unhealthy because it's shod alone. We will mention diet and ground stimulation.

If you wish to drag up threads and have us pick over them, then I will try and help.

But I think it would be better manners to set up your own thread for this and ask permission of the OP's of those threads you bring back, first.

 

[RolyPolyPony]

As for my current mare, well, I shall immediately get her shoes taken off, cripple her and put her on bute for a while (which by the way is not natural either) and get a full blood profile taken to find out what the underlying problem is, irrelevant of the fact that she's as healthy as a slimmer's salad and 100% sound.

wow yes she must be 100% sound if taking her shoes off would cripple her!!!

 

[amandap]

Don't assume that all barefoot trimmers are cowboys and that all farriers are experts, there are good and bad in any profession. Just because a farrier did a 4yr apprenticeship many years ago does not mean they are good at their job. If all farriers were so good we wouldn't have so many lamenesses caused by hoof imbalance.

Ditto and to add that in an apprenticeship they learn from one farrier so it depends on how good that individual is. Bf trimmer training ensures they work with and are supervised by more than one mentor/instructor and often/usually they are involved in CPD once qualified.

There are good and not so good as well as bad in both.

ps. If taking shoes off your horse makes them crippled then they are not sound. Have a read here and the comments. http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/in-eye-of-beholder.html

 

[ester]

My boys are both trimmed by a farrier who is really interested barefoot and he rates barefoot experts such as Nic Barker very highly.

Don't assume that all barefoot trimmers are cowboys and that all farriers are experts, there are good and bad in any profession. Just because a farrier did a 4yr apprenticeship many years ago does not mean they are good at their job. If all farriers were so good we wouldn't have so many lamenesses caused by hoof imbalance.

The only problem with barefoot trimming is that it is an unregulated profession, the same as equine dentistry, so be careful to check the qualifications of anyone you use and ask for references. I would perfectly happy to use a registered UKNHCP trimmer, just not a random that bought themselves some rasps and gives trimming a bad name.

I wonder if TFC would allow a sticky like the 'choosing a dentist' one in the vet forum. I think it would be useful to have a summary post of the different trimming qualifications and what will have to have been done to achieve them. btw I wouldn't have a clue!

 

[amandap]

Here's the outline of the UKNHCP one. Click on training program, there are 15 steps. http://uknhcp.org.uk/

and here's an outline of the AANHCP one http://www.isnhcp.net/NHC-Training.html

and IAEP (K. C. La Pierre EP's) http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/iaep/diploma_program.html

 

[cptrayes]

It does make me laugh, I have just done a search on here about barefoot problems and there are so many threads with people experiencing problems with barefoot horses - yet apparently CPTrayes says that being barefoot solves everything?!

Please don't be so silly when talking about me Moomin1 People post on here when they are having problems because, apart from people like you posting anti-barefoot posts on a thread titled "Any barefoot EXPERTS out there?", it has become a really great place to get advice. (Let's face it, the only reason someone like you would have come onto a thread with that title is to get an argument, and you succeeded, which has been no help to the original poster at all.) The posts you found represent the tiny proportion of horses who have more difficulty than others and of course there are thousands of others not posting about how brilliantly they are doing because they don't need to. My hunter was out leading the field over 5 foot hedges and full pelt along tracks made of broken concrete and brick an hour ago, but I'm not going to start a thread about it, it's just what he does.

Perhaps you might like to read this thread that I wrote well over a year ago to give you a little more balance about my attitude to barefoot?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124

 

[Goldenstar]

OP I think you can come out from under the bed now.

 

[rhino]

QR Any barefoot experts on here?

Well yes, that's the problem, everyone is a barefoot expert on here OP, my tips - do your own research, seek out the proper research which is available, don't rely on anecdotal evidence with no scientific basis, oh, and good luck

 

[cptrayes]

QR Any barefoot experts on here?

Well yes, that's the problem, everyone is a barefoot expert on here OP, my tips - do your own research, seek out the proper research which is available, don't rely on anecdotal evidence with no scientific basis, oh, and good luck

Unfortunately the whole area of shoeing is anecdotal only with no scientific basis because the studies that have been done have been with tiny numbers of horses and with no unshod control group.

Barefoot research that has been peer reviewed is also fairly thin on the ground but some of it is very interesting, like the stuff which establishes that a toe-first landing wears the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone.

MRI scans are showing fantastic results, leading to the conclusion that soft tissue damage is almost always present when xrays show navicular changes and that the navicular changes are rarely responsible for the lameness. Disease of the navicular bone causing lameness seems to be pretty rare and most "navicular" cases are actually either ddft or collateral ligament damage.

 

[rhino]

Barefoot research that has been peer reviewed is also fairly thin on the ground but some of it is very interesting, like the stuff which establishes that a toe-first landing wears the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone.

MRI scans are showing fantastic results, leading to the conclusion that soft tissue damage is almost always present when xrays show navicular changes and that the navicular changes are rarely responsible for the lameness. Disease of the navicular bone causing lameness seems to be pretty rare and most "navicular" cases are actually either ddft or collateral ligament damage.

Thank you, I am aware which is why I told OP to look it up Hopefully more will become available in the near future

 

[A Guilding]

There's lots to learn from both camps.
I am fanatical about trimming, for the reception of a shoe or the barefoot horse, it is easy to apply a shoe to a well balanced trimmed foot,. A well balanced trimmed foot will be on the whole healthier and less likely to have future pathology, it looks better! and is better.
The research thing is a problem the sample sizes are small, but as more experiments get designed then the repeat ability will lead to larger survey sizes. It has been a long time coming but it is getting there.
The technology exists to test every theory, every practice and every idea, and that will happen.
Supply and demand will dictate that the people employed within the trade will need to be more educated, more versatile more adaptable, or they will be replaced.
The highly skilled and there is an upper tear to this will will always be in demand and paid accordingly, whether they nail them on or trim them.

So the bottom line is a good practitioner is a good practitioner.

 

[Moomin1]

I'm not sure what axe you have to grind - the OP was asking for advice on BF.

I don't think this is the place to continue a personal vendetta against a particular poster.

If CPTrayes has offended you, perhaps you should take that up with her, rather than hijacking someone else's thread?

I can't really respond to the threads you mention without knowing which ones you are talking about.

I can safely say that none of the barefooters on here (inc CPTrayes) have said a thin soled horse is unhealthy because it's shod alone. We will mention diet and ground stimulation.

If you wish to drag up threads and have us pick over them, then I will try and help.

But I think it would be better manners to set up your own thread for this and ask permission of the OP's of those threads you bring back, first.

In answer to this, I have no 'vendetta' against CPTrayes, as I am sure she can back up - I don't recall ever having any issue with her at all?! My responses are merely my opinions - as are hers. No one is 100% right here. This is a public forum and people can debate their opinions as much as they want.

On the note of diet and ground stimulation please can I ask for advice (seriously now)? My vet has advised my mare does not go barefoot. She is very thin soled, yet has PERFECT feet when shod - no issues in the slightest - no cracks/chips/casts/lameness/thrush etc etc. If I were to ignore vet advice, then how do I go about humanely and naturally resolving my mare's issue? She is crippled without shoes and has worn them all her life. She is 100% healthy/happy and easy to care for at the moment. She is fed on 100% fibre diet and this never changes.

 

[Moomin1]

Oh and OP - your farrier is right not to chop much off if you have left your horse's trimming too long. The trick is, not to leave your horse's trimming too long!! Then you would find your farrier/barefoot trimmer could keep a good shape on your horse's feet.

 

[foxy1]

She may have a copper/zinc/magnesium deficient diet? She may get too much sugar in her diet from grass? Yes I know this sounds nuts but it's absolutely true The foot can only grow stronger from the inside out.....