Any experience of low albumin in blood / conditioning feed recommendations / WWYD (no doubt will end up being long!)

[CanteringCarrot]

He looks good for having gone through all of that. What a ride...an odd and very stressful ride.

You're an amazing owner with everything that you've done. He so lucky to have you.

 

[olop]

Hi TPO hope you don’t mind me asking but how old is chip? And have they found any cause for his enlarged intestines/tummy? I’m glad to hear the levels are sorting themselves out!

 

[daffy44]

My goodness! What a journey, I'm so glad he's well now.

 

[Michen]

Jeez! You've been on a hell of a journey with him.

Fully support all horse enquiries, very sensible

 

[ozpoz]

How awful to go through! I’m so glad he’s doing well, and I hope that you have the chance to unwind from it all! He is so lucky to have you.

 

[View]

Oh goodness, given everything, I think you were entitled to the odd meltdown! He's a lucky boy to have you.

 

[TPO]

Thanks for the replies and good wishes, I didn't expect anyone to slogging through my War & Peace brain dump!

@olop He was 12 in April and is a quarter horse.

It's been given the blanket diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

No one knows what's caused it or what the trigger it. It's even more peculiar that the outward symptoms show in Feb time because winter isn't typically the time for any allergens.

The general thoughts are an autoimmune response to an (internal?) antigen.

Various thoughts I've had are:

He's been at [my parent's] home since 2018. That grazing was a rye/clover mix and it's been a build up of being on that grass.

The other horses have been fine but Chip was malnourished at the stud and arrived at me a bag of bones aged 2. So, like his dental issues, perhaps his internal system has been compromised by that neglect.

The grazing has been a work in progress. It has been oversown a couple of times but didn't take.

Then the drainage had to be upgraded for all the land. That took a long time.

Finally half was ploughed and re seeded with an equine meadow mix with minimum rye and no clover. That was spring 23 and Chip was showing signs of not being right from that March.

That field was rested to grow but then the rain came and damage all the local land. The grass had to be aerated a few times and harrowed before it started growing again. The horses went back onto it spring 2024. Unfortunately the water damage was quite extensive meaning that clover did grow back.

The plan was to plough and reseed the other half this spring but thr endless rain put paid to that. It was supposed to then get done round about now but I think it's been decided to spray it to totally kill thr clover. It'll then need 6mths empty (not sure if that's before or after ploughing) and it'll get sown with a mix that has zero rye.

Meanwhile we're installing hardstanding for winter. That means no grass/clover, just adlib hay and vitamin E. I'll see if being off all grass from Nov-March helps or makes a difference.

I'm going to start him on mycosorb too.

Clover is just something I've latched onto, it might not be that at all. Mum's horse had bloods done for a different reason and I received them by mistake. They show that his albumin and overall protein are slightly higher than the healthy range. Probably a question for @PurBee if clover is linked to protein levels?

The other 3 horses that have grazed the property at thr same time as him have always been fine in that regard.

I've put it to vets; the grazing and his bad start. They said they could do Laparoscopy (standing) or laparotomy (GA) for a precise diagnosis. That still might not identify why it's happening. I decided against it, eith hospital's support, because that wouldn't change his treatment plan.

All ideas and suggestions welcome. I might be missing something obvious.

They're all fec and saliva tested so no ODing on wormer. His counts have always been clear other than one when this started thst was "low". He's not been wormed since this kicked off and I've done ELISA test for encysted red rather than blanket worm. No vaccines to overload system either since it happened.

 

[BBP]

So interesting, I hadn’t seen this before. I’m so glad he is doing better but it is never very settling when you have that sort of blanket diagnosis and associated uncertainty I imagine.

 

[olop]

Thanks for the replies and good wishes, I didn't expect anyone to slogging through my War & Peace brain dump!

@olop He was 12 in April and is a quarter horse.

It's been given the blanket diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

No one knows what's caused it or what the trigger it. It's even more peculiar that the outward symptoms show in Feb time because winter isn't typically the time for any allergens.

The general thoughts are an autoimmune response to an (internal?) antigen.

Various thoughts I've had are:

He's been at [my parent's] home since 2018. That grazing was a rye/clover mix and it's been a build up of being on that grass.

The other horses have been fine but Chip was malnourished at the stud and arrived at me a bag of bones aged 2. So, like his dental issues, perhaps his internal system has been compromised by that neglect.

The grazing has been a work in progress. It has been oversown a couple of times but didn't take.

Then the drainage had to be upgraded for all the land. That took a long time.

Finally half was ploughed and re seeded with an equine meadow mix with minimum rye and no clover. That was spring 23 and Chip was showing signs of not being right from that March.

That field was rested to grow but then the rain came and damage all the local land. The grass had to be aerated a few times and harrowed before it started growing again. The horses went back onto it spring 2024. Unfortunately the water damage was quite extensive meaning that clover did grow back.

The plan was to plough and reseed the other half this spring but thr endless rain put paid to that. It was supposed to then get done round about now but I think it's been decided to spray it to totally kill thr clover. It'll then need 6mths empty (not sure if that's before or after ploughing) and it'll get sown with a mix that has zero rye.

Meanwhile we're installing hardstanding for winter. That means no grass/clover, just adlib hay and vitamin E. I'll see if being off all grass from Nov-March helps or makes a difference.

I'm going to start him on mycosorb too.

Clover is just something I've latched onto, it might not be that at all. Mum's horse had bloods done for a different reason and I received them by mistake. They show that his albumin and overall protein are slightly higher than the healthy range. Probably a question for @PurBee if clover is linked to protein levels?

The other 3 horses that have grazed the property at thr same time as him have always been fine in that regard.

I've put it to vets; the grazing and his bad start. They said they could do Laparoscopy (standing) or laparotomy (GA) for a precise diagnosis. That still might not identify why it's happening. I decided against it, eith hospital's support, because that wouldn't change his treatment plan.

All ideas and suggestions welcome. I might be missing something obvious.

They're all fec and saliva tested so no ODing on wormer. His counts have always been clear other than one when this started thst was "low". He's not been wormed since this kicked off and I've done ELISA test for encysted red rather than blanket worm. No vaccines to overload system either since it happened.

Interesting thank you! My about to turn 25 year old has had low albumin levels since he turned 20. He had an ultrasound scan that also showed thickened intestines and was also given the IBD diagnosis. His last low albumin was last December and each time it drops to the 27/28 level they just give me a course of steroids and then they are fine again. I was warned the prognosis is poor but he’s still here five years later.

 

[PurBee]

Thanks for the replies and good wishes, I didn't expect anyone to slogging through my War & Peace brain dump!

@olop He was 12 in April and is a quarter horse.

It's been given the blanket diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

No one knows what's caused it or what the trigger it. It's even more peculiar that the outward symptoms show in Feb time because winter isn't typically the time for any allergens.

The general thoughts are an autoimmune response to an (internal?) antigen.

Various thoughts I've had are:

He's been at [my parent's] home since 2018. That grazing was a rye/clover mix and it's been a build up of being on that grass.

The other horses have been fine but Chip was malnourished at the stud and arrived at me a bag of bones aged 2. So, like his dental issues, perhaps his internal system has been compromised by that neglect.

The grazing has been a work in progress. It has been oversown a couple of times but didn't take.

Then the drainage had to be upgraded for all the land. That took a long time.

Finally half was ploughed and re seeded with an equine meadow mix with minimum rye and no clover. That was spring 23 and Chip was showing signs of not being right from that March.

That field was rested to grow but then the rain came and damage all the local land. The grass had to be aerated a few times and harrowed before it started growing again. The horses went back onto it spring 2024. Unfortunately the water damage was quite extensive meaning that clover did grow back.

The plan was to plough and reseed the other half this spring but thr endless rain put paid to that. It was supposed to then get done round about now but I think it's been decided to spray it to totally kill thr clover. It'll then need 6mths empty (not sure if that's before or after ploughing) and it'll get sown with a mix that has zero rye.

Meanwhile we're installing hardstanding for winter. That means no grass/clover, just adlib hay and vitamin E. I'll see if being off all grass from Nov-March helps or makes a difference.

I'm going to start him on mycosorb too.

Clover is just something I've latched onto, it might not be that at all. Mum's horse had bloods done for a different reason and I received them by mistake. They show that his albumin and overall protein are slightly higher than the healthy range. Probably a question for @PurBee if clover is linked to protein levels?

The other 3 horses that have grazed the property at thr same time as him have always been fine in that regard.

I've put it to vets; the grazing and his bad start. They said they could do Laparoscopy (standing) or laparotomy (GA) for a precise diagnosis. That still might not identify why it's happening. I decided against it, eith hospital's support, because that wouldn't change his treatment plan.

All ideas and suggestions welcome. I might be missing something obvious.

They're all fec and saliva tested so no ODing on wormer. His counts have always been clear other than one when this started thst was "low". He's not been wormed since this kicked off and I've done ELISA test for encysted red rather than blanket worm. No vaccines to overload system either since it happened.

Gosh TPO its been quite the merrygoround youve been on, but glad you’ve got him recovering well and feeling better.

The clover, if its significant in a field, will provide higher protein levels, which could account for showing as higher in mums horse.

I always look at fields as patches of square metres and assess per square metre roughly the amount of grasses im seeing, to get a rough % of the amount in the whole field. With clover if theres 1-2 plants per square metre, some square metres without, i wouldnt be concerned. But if theres easily 5+ plants per square metre that would be significant.
The trouble with clover is the moulds they harbour - which i had to research heavily a few years back when i imported alpine mixed wrapped organic meadow hay, which was absolutely loaded with clover - 20% weight of each bale.
One vet specialising in clover said he’d avoid it completely for horses due to the moulds - moulds which other grazers like cows arent so affected by.

Maybe, the winter grazing Chip is getting from clover land, means the clovers are not growing as healthy as they could due to it being winter, and easily grow the blackspot mould, which combined with Chip’s potential propensity for having a ‘challenged gut’ due to younger years, means it affects him more drastically than your mums horses?

Horses seem to really love clover too - mine will nibble even the tiniest fresh leaves of it growing on paths. They’ll close graze that as much as their lips allow! So its very much a plant they love the taste of.

During this winter, it would be worth closely analysing the fresh growing small clover leaves - inspect them upper and under leaf for any discolouration - brown or blackish spots, or even white bloom mould. Check stems too. To check if the fresh growing leaves are actively growing moulds as they grow. In certain damp, cool conditions such as winter, they could be growing the moulds as they sprout.

Some lands are hard to sow a nice mixed meadow horse-friendly grass seed mix. I tried it here with high rainfall and some species in the mix didnt last. Timothy is more suited to hesvy wet land, but not overgrazing. The fescues are plenty in variety, so some will take. Tall fescue does well in wet heavy land, for fresh grazing, but doesn't want to be left for late autumn hay cuts due to its propensity for ergot/moulds.

Your drylot area will really help the land have some time-off from grazing to save the grazing. Its been a godsend here over winter. Its alleviated a lot of winter grazing stress, for the land and me!

An experiment for Chip would be interesting to see if he’s mainly on a drylot with hay over winter, rather than exposure to daily grazing, whether this coming february his symptoms return. It would help pinpoint cause.

Fingers crossed for you and him he holds up well - this winter is so far predicted to be kinder than last winter at least

 

[TPO]

Thanks @PurBee. Nothing has been spotted on the clover. Remember when the whole forum went mad about ergot on grass? So yeah, the grazing had been thoroughly inspected and nothing obviously amiss.

We ploughed and reseeded one half of the land. The rains since last autumn were unreal and a combination of that, meaning that the ground was underwater, and next door seeds with clover means that clover has grown back. Not nearly as much as there was but there are big clumps of it. Obviously that's exactly what they want to graze on!

The plan is that they come off the grazing at the end of October and have a winter on hardstanding with hay.

Muck is being spread at the end of the month on the other field. It'll them be sprayed next spring to absolutely kill all clover, before it's ploughed and reseeded with a rye & clover free equine meadow mix. Plenty of fescues in it! That field won't be ready for grazing until September next year at the earliest.

Another reason for the hardstanding because the original reseeded field needs to last them all of next year.

But yes, it will be good to see if being off the grazingnover winter stops a relapse.

I'm going to start him on Mycosorb too. My practice vet phoned for a check in and I ran the mycosorb past her. She I'd just back from 15+ years in NZ and she said it is very commonly used over there and that it won't have any negative effects. I'm so grateful to have vets that care and check in about him.

So everything crossed Thank-you for the detailed reply.

turns out this whole forum thing works better if I hit the post button. Apologies for the delay in replying Purbee.