Any ideas on what would cause a horse to disunite in canter?

[Casey76]

And for clarification - osteo is coming on Thursday, and I'm planning a "performance not as expected" visit from the vet if no improvement.

My mare has always had an awful canter, when I bought her as a very green 6yo, she could barely canter at all. She is now 9, and although it is getting better, her canter is still awful, very rushed, light in the hind end etc. She finds it exceptionally hard to canter on the lunge.

In May, this year, she started to disunite and she was seen by an osteo in Jun, with some comments that she had some tightness across her loin and lumbar vertebrae. Although we weren't given any specific prescription for exercises, we worked a lot on the canter transition, lots of rein back to canter, and counter canter etc to get her haunches properly working and get her more balanced in canter.

Then she cut her right hind leg which required a couple of staples, and a less severe cut on her right fore armpit. in the end she had 4 weeks off, as I went on holiday as she was due to come back into work.

The first time my instructor got on to ride (which she does once a week), the canter was awful, definitely cantering at the front but almost a hopping trot at the back. But she is 100% sound in walk and trot, on a surface, on hard ground in a straight line and in a circle both large and small.

I've avoided doing any canter work for 2 weeks, and concentrated on trot, making sure we have a good connection between front and hind quarters. Lots of lateral work moving the haunches from side to side etc. She feels great.

Yesterday I had a lesson and our canter transition on demand seems to have disappeared again, though she will offer canter (as an evasion!) if I'm pushing the trot too much. although I only asked for a couple of transitions on each rein, she immediately went disunited. I can sometimes push her out of it if I really push her on (our arena is 60x40, so we have enough room to get up a bit of speed), but for a normal working/schooling canter I'm just getting this half gait.

Now, just to throw something in the bucket, she has a whorl right on her spine, right under the cantle area. My osteo has remarked upon it a couple of times as it is a really weird place to have a whorl. I've since read that having a whorl on the spine can block the flow of energy from the hind to the fore quarters (if you believe in whorlology), and my osteo has stated that there is now some fibrotic tissue directly beneath the whorl.

Could Tartine just have a "defective" canter (as my instructor calls it). Is it a physical thing? Can it be fixed?

As far as I know she has never gone splat in the field, and she always rolls right over (usually several times!) when rolling in the field.

Tea and biscuits for getting this far!

 

[milliepops]

I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.

 

[HeresHoping]

I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.

So sorry, this for me, too.

 

[Goldenstar]

As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .

 

[milliepops]

As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .

^^ oh absolutely, sorry OP, didn't mean to be the voice of doom. Really hope it's just a bit of tightness and loss of strength during her time off.
I'd have expected the canter to struggle more with rhythm (e.g heading towards 4 time) or tanking off losing balance etc if it was a 'type' kind of difficulty though. The awkward transition and disuniting (when the other work is improving) just sounded a bit off to me.

 

[Casey76]

As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .

Actually Mérens are bred to be true all rounders, including dressage and jumping as well as driving. The recent spate of disunitedness isn't on one side, it's on both.

Looks like I'm going to be getting back to the vetting vet for all of the xrays I had done as it looks like I may need comparisons for hocks.

thanks all.

(recent photo from July)

 

[Birker2020]

I agree with Goldenstar when she says hock issues. Spavin presents as disunited canter behind, also dragging of toes (clipping of toes on concrete/tarmac road) and a reluctance to put the hock under the body. The horse may also be placing the foot under the midline (tummy) when it moves forwards whereas an unaffected horse will walk in the correct way.

here is a brilliant video on YouTube that might assist you :http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9AB771280155913D9A159AB771280155913&FORM=VIRE

I'd suggest you get a vet out to have a lameness workup to reach a diagnosis. There's loads that can be done if it is spavin including steroid injections or Tildren/fusion, remedial shoeing, a decent physio and a good joint supplement. Also working the horse differently on a good surface.

As a general rule a horse that is reluctant to work in a particular pace is sore in that pace because of a different set of muscle group being used. Muscular problems can of course stem from lots of reasons, notably because a horse is moving differently in its body to compensate from pain elsewhere.

Has she ever given you cause to suspect she is a wobbler? Horses that have a bunny hop type of canter behind can also be suffering from a neuro condition. They move in a very different way. It throws you out of the saddle so it doesn't feel like a disunited canter but its the easiest way to describe it. Very unique type of canter, very different altogether. Heres a video of a 3 year old with wobblers cantering, you will see the hind limb placement is unique to this condition. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...68DC123480C9705A009068DC123480C97&FORM=VRDGAR

 

[Scatterbrain]

Could well be PSD unfortunately. A thorough lameness work up with a good equine vet would be my first port of call.

PSD often goes hand in hand with hock issues.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Another thing to throw into the mix would be PSSM.

 

[Casey76]

Another thing to throw into the mix would be PSSM.

Thanks FW, she is actually already on a fairly PSSM-friendly diet, including added salt and Vit E. She has never seen any overt signs of tying up, or unusual stiffness (or stiffness of any particular kind). Her bottom muscles are always nice and soft. But it is something to consider, and I'll add it to the list of things to test for (which also includes EMS and PPID) - in for a penny in for a pound, right - I might as well get everything tested at once, saves repeated call outs!

I agree with Goldenstar when she says hock issues. Spavin presents as disunited canter behind, also dragging of toes (clipping of toes on concrete/tarmac road) and a reluctance to put the hock under the body. The horse may also be placing the foot under the midline (tummy) when it moves forwards whereas an unaffected horse will walk in the correct way.

here is a brilliant video on YouTube that might assist you :http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9AB771280155913D9A159AB771280155913&FORM=VIRE

I'd suggest you get a vet out to have a lameness workup to reach a diagnosis. There's loads that can be done if it is spavin including steroid injections or Tildren/fusion, remedial shoeing, a decent physio and a good joint supplement. Also working the horse differently on a good surface.

As a general rule a horse that is reluctant to work in a particular pace is sore in that pace because of a different set of muscle group being used. Muscular problems can of course stem from lots of reasons, notably because a horse is moving differently in its body to compensate from pain elsewhere.

Has she ever given you cause to suspect she is a wobbler? Horses that have a bunny hop type of canter behind can also be suffering from a neuro condition. They move in a very different way. It throws you out of the saddle so it doesn't feel like a disunited canter but its the easiest way to describe it. Very unique type of canter, very different altogether. Heres a video of a 3 year old with wobblers cantering, you will see the hind limb placement is unique to this condition. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...68DC123480C9705A009068DC123480C97&FORM=VRDGAR

Hi Applecart, she actually shows no particular symptoms of hock spavins (and my old horse had them, so I pretty much know what they present like); She is fine to have her back feet picked up, she doesn't drag her toes, is find going up and down hills, walks neither base wide, nor base narrow at the back. She has no issues engaging in trot, always most of the time shows excellent hock flexion etc. From looking at videos from May (at the time the disunited thing started), it does appear to be higher up (stifle, hip, SI), as it isn't a "bunny-hop" both-legs-together at the back, it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch or the legs are going in the right canter-order, but there is no jump at the back.

She isn't particularly reluctant to canter, as I said, she will offer canter if I'm asking too many difficult questions in trot (e.g. shoulder in on a circle will often precipitate a canter transition , or spiral in/LY out on a circle will too.)

I am trying to keep away from google too much - all of a sudden, my horse seems to be missing a leg and is dying of some weird zoonosis lol!

As I said, the osteo is coming tomorrow, and I'll see what he says, then possible vet work up next week.

 

[Birker2020]

As I said, the osteo is coming tomorrow, and I'll see what he says, then possible vet work up next week.

Do keep us updated Casey76 and good luck with the vet.

 

[Scatterbrain]

"it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch" is exactly what one of my horses with PSD was exhibiting, combined with poor canter. My vet explained the little hitch is the horse attempting to avoid the pain. The physio always picked up on and treated tension and tightness in the lumber and loin areas, but the true source was PSD. He was actually bilaterally lame behind which made it hard to detect.
Hope I'm wrong, but definitely worth investigating should your mare not come right.

 

[Charlie31]

Just to throw something entirely different into the mix, are you sure her saddle is definitely fitting her as sometimes a saddle that's not right can cause them to be disunited in canter. I would guess the osteo will pick up some tightness through her back if it is the saddle so it could be a possible line of enquiry if the osteo does come back with this.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.

This for me too.

 

[Tyssandi]

And for clarification - osteo is coming on Thursday, and I'm planning a "performance not as expected" visit from the vet if no improvement.

My mare has always had an awful canter, when I bought her as a very green 6yo, she could barely canter at all. She is now 9, and although it is getting better, her canter is still awful, very rushed, light in the hind end etc. She finds it exceptionally hard to canter on the lunge.

In May, this year, she started to disunite and she was seen by an osteo in Jun, with some comments that she had some tightness across her loin and lumbar vertebrae. Although we weren't given any specific prescription for exercises, we worked a lot on the canter transition, lots of rein back to canter, and counter canter etc to get her haunches properly working and get her more balanced in canter.

Then she cut her right hind leg which required a couple of staples, and a less severe cut on her right fore armpit. in the end she had 4 weeks off, as I went on holiday as she was due to come back into work.

The first time my instructor got on to ride (which she does once a week), the canter was awful, definitely cantering at the front but almost a hopping trot at the back. But she is 100% sound in walk and trot, on a surface, on hard ground in a straight line and in a circle both large and small.

I've avoided doing any canter work for 2 weeks, and concentrated on trot, making sure we have a good connection between front and hind quarters. Lots of lateral work moving the haunches from side to side etc. She feels great.

Yesterday I had a lesson and our canter transition on demand seems to have disappeared again, though she will offer canter (as an evasion!) if I'm pushing the trot too much. although I only asked for a couple of transitions on each rein, she immediately went disunited. I can sometimes push her out of it if I really push her on (our arena is 60x40, so we have enough room to get up a bit of speed), but for a normal working/schooling canter I'm just getting this half gait.

Now, just to throw something in the bucket, she has a whorl right on her spine, right under the cantle area. My osteo has remarked upon it a couple of times as it is a really weird place to have a whorl. I've since read that having a whorl on the spine can block the flow of energy from the hind to the fore quarters (if you believe in whorlology), and my osteo has stated that there is now some fibrotic tissue directly beneath the whorl.

Could Tartine just have a "defective" canter (as my instructor calls it). Is it a physical thing? Can it be fixed?

As far as I know she has never gone splat in the field, and she always rolls right over (usually several times!) when rolling in the field.

Tea and biscuits for getting this far!

My last horse would change legs all the time when jumping and before the jump, there was no issue she just like to change but it did feel ruddy weird to sit on.

 

[Casey76]

"it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch" is exactly what one of my horses with PSD was exhibiting, combined with poor canter. My vet explained the little hitch is the horse attempting to avoid the pain. The physio always picked up on and treated tension and tightness in the lumber and loin areas, but the true source was PSD. He was actually bilaterally lame behind which made it hard to detect.
Hope I'm wrong, but definitely worth investigating should your mare not come right.

Was the actual trot work OK though Scatterbrain? Tartine is 100% sound in trot, including lateral work such as LY, SI, travers on a 2,3 and 4 track work. It is only in the canter that the "hitch" is showing.

 

[alainax]

I very much hope it is not something medically wrong and she gets the all clear.

How is she for picking up the correct lead? What does she do on the lunge? Does she fix it or continue with it? Does she rush?

I have one who will disunite or pick up the wrong lead very easily, counter canter without a care! He looks like he is for example bent to the left. Bend looks uniform along his length, so it can be baffling. However if he drops a shoulder slightly, or puts his weight just a fraction to the opposite, he will pick up the right lead. This sometimes manifests in being disunited, as he will strike off correct from behind, but has already shifted weight in the front. This is a horse who finds lateral work easy, moves sideways and away from your leg with ease, and once in canter its gorgeous. Its just getting there.

We have lessons and are working on it, its just one of those little hurdles.

 

[SEL]

Does your horse canter correctly without a rider on top? My PSSM mare struggles with a rider which I suspect is the muscular issue and will hopefully resolve as she strengthens up - we have a definite 'hitch' behind and can't even get a canter unless there's a big run up. Without a rider we get a beautiful canter on both reins, flying changes and spins a polo pony would be proud of!

 

[Casey76]

I very much hope it is not something medically wrong and she gets the all clear.

How is she for picking up the correct lead? What does she do on the lunge? Does she fix it or continue with it? Does she rush?

I have one who will disunite or pick up the wrong lead very easily, counter canter without a care! He looks like he is for example bent to the left. Bend looks uniform along his length, so it can be baffling. However if he drops a shoulder slightly, or puts his weight just a fraction to the opposite, he will pick up the right lead. This sometimes manifests in being disunited, as he will strike off correct from behind, but has already shifted weight in the front. This is a horse who finds lateral work easy, moves sideways and away from your leg with ease, and once in canter its gorgeous. Its just getting there.

We have lessons and are working on it, its just one of those little hurdles.

she has always found canter particularly difficult, and for a loooong time she couldn't canter in a 20x40 school as there wasn't enough space. Even now, after 3 years, and I'd say 18 months of intense training anything less than a 20m circle is exceptionally hard work.

For the longest time we had horrendous issues with canter right, and she would 95% of the time go off on the left lead. It has taken a lot of persistence and repetition - and a lot of setting up the transition - to get her to consistently take the right lead. Now the right canter feels better/stronger than the left, which is her naturally dominant/easy side. During training her canter felt 4-beat a lot of the time and I had to really open her up to get a true 3-beat canter. Before she had her sick note, we were doing really great canter work starting on shallow loops and counter canter, and in my own time figure-8s with a 1 stride simple change in the middle.

The actual transition has been very hit and miss in the past, even now if I don't have her properly balanced and on the aids she won't transition or she will take a half stride and go on the wrong lead - I'm getting very good at feeling that and stopping it before it happens now!

BUT - her canter always feels rushed, and has two speeds - fast and faster - no lollopy-bowling-along canter - though that could also be because she is 13.3 and has short legs

Does your horse canter correctly without a rider on top? My PSSM mare struggles with a rider which I suspect is the muscular issue and will hopefully resolve as she strengthens up - we have a definite 'hitch' behind and can't even get a canter unless there's a big run up. Without a rider we get a beautiful canter on both reins, flying changes and spins a polo pony would be proud of!

On the lunge she will canter on the right lead about 98% of the time. But she needs a lot of encouragement and exact timing of the aids to get her to canter, and she tends to fall back to trot after only a few strides. She also leans on the rein a lot for support.

Ridden, we generally don't need any kind of run up, and our walk to canter isn't too bad after the first couple of tries.

 

[Casey76]

thanks everyone for your input, it is all very insightful and giving me lots to think about

 

[Scatterbrain]

Was the actual trot work OK though Scatterbrain? Tartine is 100% sound in trot, including lateral work such as LY, SI, travers on a 2,3 and 4 track work. It is only in the canter that the "hitch" is showing.

He was always 100% sound in walk and trot. It was his reluctance to maintain canter that worried me initially, plus he favoured the left rein canter lead. He was much happier trotting. This went on for many months as I assumed he was just being evasive/lazy. He eventually started putting in the odd "hitch" in trot too, especially going uphill and it was then I realised he needed a lameness workup. Scans revealed PSD both hinds, the right worse than the left.

 

[Casey76]

OK, just to give a quick update.

Tartine managed to confound the osteopath by being the most blocked he has ever seen in a horse. Complete seizure from the middle of the back right through the sacrum and both hips. For once poll and neck not too bad. We were puzzling over what she has done, as he only saw her at the beginning on Jun, and she has had 4 weeks off work in the interim too. My only thought is that she's gone splat in the field, possibly done a Bambi, or lost her back legs behind her.

She was a complete sweetheart during the manipulations, some of which were obviously more than a bit uncomfortable for her.

Since then, she has had 3 days complete rest, and I have to lunge her gently today before I can ride her tomorrow.

I have been warned that during canter she might go disunited at first due to remembered pain, but I need to keep trying; but if it isn't better in a week to get him back out.

Having said that, if it doesn't improve this week, I'll get the vet out next week for a comprehensive work up.

 

[samleigh]

Sorry, but my mare was totally blocked, sore on every point on her quarters, it started a journey of investigations ending in a diagnosis of PSD, she also went disunited a lot in her canter.

 

[LinzyD]

Hi Casey

No-one has mentioned the pony's conformation, but from looking at your photo - and of course it's only a snapshot, so may not give an accurate impression - I'd say the pony is croup high and a little camped out behind, both of which mean it's going to take longer than average to develop a good canter. Having said that, I experienced what you are describing with a youngster I had, also croup high, gave him longer than I would have expected, and when there was still an issue I had him checked out and discovered he'd got defective cartilage in both stifles, which was corrected with surgery. Interestingly, he too presented tightness over his back, but this was a secondary issue resulting from the mechanical issue in the stifles.

When your pony goes disunited does it feel as though she's sort of propping behind, kind of jarring you in your seat? My pony felt as though the movement was up behind me rather than underneath me, if that makes sense. And does she go disunited more often on a softer surface than on say a firm field? And when she's not disunited does it still feel uncomfortable to you?

Keep us posted; it's so interesting and useful to share experiences. Oh, and good luck and fingers crossed...

 

[MaeBee93]

This is screaming sacroiliac pain to me, my mare has this problem! If it is then steroids, physio, tailored work regime and a lot of careful management has worked wonders so far but in the end it puts a limit on what they are capable of! we haven't gone back to jumping yet but hacking and basic school work is still within her capabilities. Time will tell I guess :blue::blue:

Speak to your vet, they may suggest a bone scan which really is worth it to find the location of any problems.

 

[Fidgety]

I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

.

For me as well (high suspensory desmitis)

 

[clairebearnz]

My horse had a fall in the paddock in April and pinched a nerve in his back and was ataxic behind. He recovered within the first week, but even when walk and trot were normal, he tended to drop disunited in canter which he'd never done before regularly. He'd also 'bunny hop' behind where both hind legs landed together. He has since recovered fully thankfully, and his canter is back to normal. From what I have read, mild neurological problems tend to show up most in the canter. If the vet is coming out, it may be worth asking about a neurological exam.

 

[Casey76]

Arse, ******, and other sweary words...

My instructor rode Tartine on Monday, and said that she was "OK," not brilliant, and the canter wasn't great at all.

I lunged her yesterday (just in a head collar), and she was very unenthusiastic. Needed a lot of encouragement to trot out (although she was tracking up fine), and had a tendency to carry herself counter bent, on both reins.

She has never gone disunited on the lunge in canter, so I wasn't expecting to see that, but she was going very close behind - not quite bunny hopping, but really not striding properly.

Phoned the vet this morning and requested a full lameness work up, and also requested bloods for PPID, EMS and PSSM. My usual vet is on holiday this week, so he'll call me on Monday next week to arrange a time.

What I'm more concerned with at the moment is that T isn't her normal chilled out self. She has a nostril wrinkle thing going on and a raised/tight eyebrow thing going on. She is hyper alert when in her box and although she is hungry enough, eating all of her hay and food, she isn't showing much interest in grazing, and spends a lot of her turnout (when I'm there to see) just standing around looking a bit down.

I'm really trying not to dwell too much on all things negative, but I can't deny that I'm starting to get a bit worried.

She isn't the type of pony I can turn away (if it comes to that), as she needs such careful dietary and exercise management to keep her weight anywhere near reasonable.

****** (again)

 

[HeresHoping]

Arse, ******, and other sweary words...

My instructor rode Tartine on Monday, and said that she was "OK," not brilliant, and the canter wasn't great at all.

I lunged her yesterday (just in a head collar), and she was very unenthusiastic. Needed a lot of encouragement to trot out (although she was tracking up fine), and had a tendency to carry herself counter bent, on both reins.

She has never gone disunited on the lunge in canter, so I wasn't expecting to see that, but she was going very close behind - not quite bunny hopping, but really not striding properly.

Phoned the vet this morning and requested a full lameness work up, and also requested bloods for PPID, EMS and PSSM. My usual vet is on holiday this week, so he'll call me on Monday next week to arrange a time.

What I'm more concerned with at the moment is that T isn't her normal chilled out self. She has a nostril wrinkle thing going on and a raised/tight eyebrow thing going on. She is hyper alert when in her box and although she is hungry enough, eating all of her hay and food, she isn't showing much interest in grazing, and spends a lot of her turnout (when I'm there to see) just standing around looking a bit down.

I'm really trying not to dwell too much on all things negative, but I can't deny that I'm starting to get a bit worried.

She isn't the type of pony I can turn away (if it comes to that), as she needs such careful dietary and exercise management to keep her weight anywhere near reasonable.

****** (again)

Oh Casey. I'm sorry. I was hoping not to see this sort of an update.

Firstly, let's not panic too much. It could be a suspensory. It takes a while and care will be needed, but suspensories can be repaired. It could be SI issues. Again, they can, with time, be fixed. She's young.

Second, turning away need not be a nightmare. Large field, large herd, they start to self-regulate. Worst case scenario, she gets a muzzle for some of the time and comes in to a bare paddock at night. We're not all blessed with track paradise systems or horses that don't mind box rest. I've managed to get my very much lives on fresh air Connie to lose and keep the weight off despite very little work since March through soaking hay, feeding fibre only plus supplements and a muzzle during the day. I know things are different en France but it'll be a case of improvise, adapt and overcome.

Fingers very, very firmly crossed for it being something easily mended in time.

And if you can, get an ArcEquine unit.

 

[Casey76]

Thanks HH.

The subject of turn out is a bit of a prickly one. On my current yard I get approx. 12 hours out at the moment, in a paired paddock. That is the best I'm aware of in the area. Most yards don't do herd turn out, and certainly not every day/consistently. The fact that we're going into winter makes things much more difficult, when a lot of places stipulate no turn out between October and April.

At the moment Tartine is maintaining weight on 12 hour soaked weighed hay + chaff for supplements+ muzzled turnout. She really needs to lose at least another 40kg, but she will only lose if I can work her twice a day (as I've found out this year).

Still, trying not to think too much about the what ifs, until I know something more definite...