Any ideas on what would cause a horse to disunite in canter?

I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline! And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??
 
JanetGeorge said:
I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline! And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??
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At his would be my approach but I would start using a lunging rope over the back between the fore legs to the bit .
I would also do lots of work on her eye to hoof coordination which is just stepping over all sorts of different things .
I set this up for mine in the wood using fallen branches on slopes and strange angles I lunge walk them about the place it is amazingly effective .
 
JanetGeorge said:
I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline! And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??
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Hi JG, thanks for your input. I don't think her topline is too bad - can you point out to me why you think it is so lacking (I need to get my eye in more!). T has lost approx. 90kg since the beginning of May, and it's taken a lot of effort to reduce her crest and fat pads along her neck (now thankfully both gone!).

She works well in an Equi-ami, and was doing 20-30 mins every day before she injured herself. It is only recently that she has had the issues with cantering on the lunge, prior to this she was striding properly, though it was really hard work for her, and couldn't maintain a canter for more than 1 20m circle. She has no issues with going long and low (and out) ridden, but needs a lot of reminders to stay there on the lunge (I'm a real novice lunger, and can only do basics).

Goldenstar said:
At his would be my approach but I would start using a lunging rope over the back between the fore legs to the bit .
I would also do lots of work on her eye to hoof coordination which is just stepping over all sorts of different things .
I set this up for mine in the wood using fallen branches on slopes and strange angles I lunge walk them about the place it is amazingly effective .
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GS she has no issues with proprioception (unlike me!) the only thing she really doesn't like is stepping over poles etc while going backwards, especially if she has to do her hind feet first (i.e. hasn't stopped either side of the pole)

Thanks to everyone for your continued input and advice/thoughts :) it really is appreciated!
 
The perception work is not just just for horses with whom the coordination is poor .
It's also ups the effectiveness of the work on the muscles because the horse is constantly having to use it muscles to adjust the step some longer some shorter
And if the horse is holding itself to avoid discomfort the steps over things makes them work those bits without thinking .
 
Well, I'm now feeling as guilty as hell.

Rode T last night just for a gentle 30 mins, spirals in and out of a 20m circle, lots of 3 loop serpentines maintaining either left or right bend (so 1 loop would be true bend, the next counter bend) Exercises like this always get her working well into the bridle and accepting the contact, and get her stretching over her back (I can tell I'm going to need a long warm up if/when I ever get competing!).

However, I'm now starting to (over analyze, probably) question things like the consistent reluctance/difficulty getting her to work properly through on the right rein; our enormous issues with her picking up the right canter lead on the right rein etc; are they actually symptoms of an underlying issue, opposed to a "normal" one-sided ness.

Had a canter on each rein at the end just to see what it was like - basically pretty bloddy awful - I wanted to cry when I got off.

My instructor is just about giving up saying she has a defective stride and we'll never compete; though the disunited thing is relatively new, the actual canter itself has always been awful. Has she had an underlying issue since before bought her? I paid through the nose for extra xrays at her PPE, but I didn't go any higher than her hocks. I mean she was an unused, green as grass, just-turned-6yo when I bought her. Why would I even think about xraying any further than hocks? right?

I'm meant to have a lesson on her tomorrow, but I'm so disheartened, (and feeling very guilty) I think I should just cancel. Even if she appears to be sound in walk and trot, she could be in a lot of discomfort and I wouldn't really know, as she just doesn't show it (she is the complete opposite of a drama queen, I've scrubbed/deep cleaned and stapled a leg wound on her while she was standing loose on the yard, and she didn't even batter an eyelash).

I'm really looking forward to speaking with the vet on Monday, just so I can at least get a plan of attack together to see what we can do to investigate/sort out.

And sorry for the self pitying post...
 
don't go off the deep end until you know what you're dealing with.
The change in the canter is what would make me want to investigate rather than to just push through it, so IMO you're doing the right thing by getting the vet involved.

Put your instructor's comments out of your mind for now - and if you think she's sore you'll just be worrying then cancel the lesson (or can you ride your gelding instead?)

Don't beat yourself up, you're clearly trying to do the right thing and I'm sure T isn't suffering.

There could be 2 things going on- it's perfectly possible that she's got something acute that's suddenly come on and caused the disuniting problem, which could be treated, and an underlying general weakness that will improve through training. My Sec D had a terrible canter when I got her, awful wall of death type canter, couldn't even keep going on a hack. She's taken a lot of training but now it's going to be her best pace. Just mentioning this because I could have written her off as too rubbish to compete at that stage, but it just needed time and correct work.

Put it on ice until Monday, you aren't going to improve anything by stressing out between now and then.
 
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I would be cancelling tomorrow's lesson and resting her until your vet has done a proper investigation. Horses are masters of disguising pain and will compensate as long as they can before revealing there is an issue.
 
Having a gaited horse myself, I have to say the initial description of the difficulties to canter (also on lunge) did ring a bell for me. But I doubt being gaited is the issue here. For one, it is really, really difficult to teach a properly gaited horse counter canter, they just tend to "stick another leg in" and go all four-beat if they get unbalanced, and counter canter is asking quite a bit.
It took my gelding a very long time to learn to canter in the school at anything other than a headlong rush, and he still has a tendency to jump in front and run behind, go four-beat or very lateral (in the direction of pace). He doesn't usually disunite, but I know some very pacey horses that have a tendency for it (since they come from pace, where one lateral pair of legs is in sync, and that leg pair remains in sync in the disunited canter).
I think what might be a commonality is that the canter gets decidedly worse the more tense the horse is through the back. My gelding once "lost" his canter on the one rein. I got a physio and saddler out and found some mild tension/pain in the loin area. Once he had recovered from that (and the saddle was fitting well), the canter on that rein was back as well. And if he's very tense (e.g. at a competition) he sometimes loses all gaits other than four-beat (walk, tolt). I couldn't trot or canter him at all in that case.
I found that poles really help to get that "jump" into the canter, and opening up a bit on the long side to get a good rhythm and jump, then try and maintain it around the corner onto a circle is also helpful. And for my gelding, who likes to work quite long and strung-out, it's also really helpful to keep him in a shorter frame and more "together". If I leave him longer, he's just so much on the forehand from the start that he finds it quite difficult to balance.
Fingers crossed you can work out what the (possible) physical problems are, and get back to training.
 
supsup said:
Having a gaited horse myself, I have to say the initial description of the difficulties to canter (also on lunge) did ring a bell for me. But I doubt being gaited is the issue here. For one, it is really, really difficult to teach a properly gaited horse counter canter, they just tend to "stick another leg in" and go all four-beat if they get unbalanced, and counter canter is asking quite a bit.
It took my gelding a very long time to learn to canter in the school at anything other than a headlong rush, and he still has a tendency to jump in front and run behind, go four-beat or very lateral (in the direction of pace). He doesn't usually disunite, but I know some very pacey horses that have a tendency for it (since they come from pace, where one lateral pair of legs is in sync, and that leg pair remains in sync in the disunited canter).
I think what might be a commonality is that the canter gets decidedly worse the more tense the horse is through the back. My gelding once "lost" his canter on the one rein. I got a physio and saddler out and found some mild tension/pain in the loin area. Once he had recovered from that (and the saddle was fitting well), the canter on that rein was back as well. And if he's very tense (e.g. at a competition) he sometimes loses all gaits other than four-beat (walk, tolt). I couldn't trot or canter him at all in that case.
I found that poles really help to get that "jump" into the canter, and opening up a bit on the long side to get a good rhythm and jump, then try and maintain it around the corner onto a circle is also helpful. And for my gelding, who likes to work quite long and strung-out, it's also really helpful to keep him in a shorter frame and more "together". If I leave him longer, he's just so much on the forehand from the start that he finds it quite difficult to balance.
Fingers crossed you can work out what the (possible) physical problems are, and get back to training.
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No, I don't believe that this is gaited related. Tartine has never shown any inclination towards ambling; she has a true diagonal trot, and the defect in canter only appeared about 3 months ago (noted in May, saw an osteo in Jun which sorted it out, then had some time off due to an unrelated injury, and then had this second gait disturbance at the end of July.

Prior to her leg injury (which was a skin deep cut on her inner thigh sustained when scratching on her outdoor abuvoir), her canter work was coming on amazingly. We were doing shallow loops, SI and simple changes on a figure 8, and also some true counter canter... which is why this is so frustrating.

My instructor is out of ideas, if it was a training issue - hence the reason for getting the vet out :)
 
OK, quick update with this...

I had a lovely vet come out yesterday who spent quite some time getting a history and listening to my thoughts. She saw T being lunged (on our normal school surface) and agreed that there is an issue (*phew* at least I now know I'm not completely bonkers!). It was great to have another pair of eyes on the ground and the vet suggested that she seems to be a little uncomfortable in her left stifle.

After we walked back round to the stables, we talked a bit about what else could be the problem, and how we could approach the issue. So the first thing we did was an ovarian scan, and although there were no gross deformities (no tumors etc), her left ovary had several (6 or 7) large follicles, and her ovary was about the size of the vets' full hand. The right ovary had one very large follicle, which may or not be persistent given the density on the ultrasound. So we've drawn blood for a hormonal panel to make sure her male and female hormones are at the correct ratios. At the same time we've also drawn blood for a general blood panel plus vitamin and mineral levels, PPID and PSSM.

The hormone panel needs to go to America, so I won't get the results for about 4 weeks. In the mean time I'm to keep working her as normal, with plenty of suppling exercises.

If the hormone panel comes back normal, the next thing we'all do is X-ray her back, and after that it starts to get a bit complicated, as there is only one clinic in Switzerland, and one in Germany who do scintigraphy and that will be the step after X-rays.

In the mean time, T is being her lovely normal self, and I'm really pleased with the pair of us today as we did our very first steps of half-pass :D
 
Sounds like a plan is coming together, which always makes me feel better. And also nice to know you aren't going mad.
So has she discounted the stifle for now, pending the bloods? I don't envy you having to wait, I am so thankful to have a big equine vet practice within 30 min drive.
 
Thanks M :). At the moment T is really tight over her loin (again), so the vet was thinking the stifle issue could be referred from that. For her it was more important to keep T moving and continue suppling exercises etc to stop her completely boarding up than it was to stop riding etc, especially as I've backed off working T hard she is gaining weight again, despite being on diet rations and muzzle.

Fortunately the vet said that while T isn't a skinnymalink she isn't hugely fat either, and the breed in general are a very "round" breed, so she wasn't too concerned about that, especially as I have the diet and muzzle etc already locked down.

I should hear today about the results of the vitamin/mineral and general blood panel. The results for PPID and PSSM will be at the end of this week.
 
Well for a start I would be doing NOTHING - especially not serpentines, circles, half pass pass or ANYTHING outside of walking out with a horse with these kind of symptoms.

Walking out is not a soft option for your horse - you can work a horse very hard in walk, I think it's the toughest pace for them to go forward in. But there's no lateral or circles.

Anything from SI down through spavins you should not be doing this, I must admit when I read your first post and the age of the horse, I thought spavin and back and pelvis pain are often secondaries from spavin.

But no one on here is a vet as far as I know so anything anyone writes is speculative. What's not speculative is that you shouldn't be making a situation worse so my advice for what it's worth would be to stay out of the school and stay away from schooling for a while - if this is spavin or SI troubles or PSD then you're doing the worst things you can for your horse.

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, and why I don't come in here very often these days.

P.S. Your Osteopath's opinion may be interesting, but is not diagnostic. You need to get your vet's diagnosis.
 
Bruce, my vet told me I should continue to work her as normal. The vet knows that I do a lot of schooling, and on what kind of surface that is done on. :)

Tartine doesn't present like a spavin. My old horse had spavins (both old and active), and his gait was completely different to T, especially in trot. Though I do understand it can be dependent in which of the hock joints the osteogenic activity is in.
 
brucea said:
Well for a start I would be doing NOTHING - especially not serpentines, circles, half pass pass or ANYTHING outside of walking out with a horse with these kind of symptoms.

Walking out is not a soft option for your horse - you can work a horse very hard in walk, I think it's the toughest pace for them to go forward in. But there's no lateral or circles.

Anything from SI down through spavins you should not be doing this, I must admit when I read your first post and the age of the horse, I thought spavin and back and pelvis pain are often secondaries from spavin.

But no one on here is a vet as far as I know so anything anyone writes is speculative. What's not speculative is that you shouldn't be making a situation worse so my advice for what it's worth would be to stay out of the school and stay away from schooling for a while - if this is spavin or SI troubles or PSD then you're doing the worst things you can for your horse.

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, and why I don't come in here very often these days.

P.S. Your Osteopath's opinion may be interesting, but is not diagnostic. You need to get your vet's diagnosis.
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This^^

I am open mouthed that this horse is still being worked. I know you care a lot for her, OP but I am shocked both by your oesteopath's advice (saying to keep on going as will be remembered pain) and by your vet's. I know you are doing nothing wrong as just following their advice, but I implore you to rest this horse for several months before recommencing strengthening work. Personally, I would be turning away/resting for at least 6 months before starting her again very gradually with back strengthening work (long reining or straightness exercises in hand). She is very obviously in pain from your description.
 
I haven't posted before but the pic from july does bother me, the lack of top line and musculature given her age, F has more at 23 after 8 weeks of light walk work and she looks as if she is holding her back end.
 
Hi my horse displayed all the signs u mention , I tried all other aspects such as oesteo physio saddler, new saddle ,rest , Bute test ,lunge work to strengthen ,but still the canter was odd . Horse sound in walk and trot maybe lacking abit of engagement on one rein , done a dressage test Bd and gained 68% no mention of lameness .months later Had lameness work up done in vets practice and came back left stifle pain . Xrays/scans showed slight changes to Cartlidge and a dent in one of ridges . Went ahead with arthroscopy on vets advice . We are now a week after surgery and I cant believe the difference in my horses posture ! As you state my horse also showed pain over loins n croup and also just behind the wither and had a very low head carriage . After just a weeks he looks more upright and not so croup high and generally happier n striding out 100% better. It just brings home how much he must of been in pain before hand but I must of gradually over time got used to his way as I see him every day his can't always been crap since backing so put it down to strengthening issues . Will be a few months before I see him canter but be interesting to see the diff as vet said could canter perfect when stifle blocked !
 
hi casey, so sorry to hear about the problem with tartine.

But, if she was mine, and i know she is`nt, so i should shut up really, but just thought i would share this, this is what i would do, end of last year, my big horse hurt himself somehow, to cut a long story short, he also had a stifle issue as well, locking, i knew he was`nt right and we could`nt find the problem. so i rested him, i did a little walking around when he felt like it, and gradually he has got better, i mean he was`nt even lame, but i thought i will just accept the situation and back off, today he is very very good, the locking stifle has gone and the problem from the accident seems to have cleared itself completely and he is moving forward very well and happy to do so, so i do find myself that when something is`nt right i just listen to the horse and take the gentle route.

i know they have said to work her but i would not, she is young and you have the years to come with her, maybe walks inhand might help, but i know how worrying and frustrating these situations are, so best of luck.
 
Thanks again, everyone, for your input. I admit I was a bit upset last night to see the comments, but everyone is allowed their opinion. I'm not some child with their first pony, and I'm doing my best to follow the expert advice I am getting from my veterinary team.

Today I had the first set of blood results back, and it is a mixture of news...

Firstly, Tartine doesn't have PPID :D the ACTH came back at 16.7mc (or is it pg - I don't have the results sheet in front of me) - so well below the diagnostic level.

The bad news is that it looks like T has a muscle metabolism disorder - I won't get the results of the PSSM test back until Friday, and as the (senior partner) vet said today, it is still a bit of an "exotic" disorder, and despite Tartine being a draught-type pony, PSSM isn't really known in Merens at all.

However, both the CK (1,270) and LDH (1000+) were extremely elevated,more than that which could be accounted for by the marginally decreased selenium (which I already supplement for); because both enzymes are elevated, the vet said this is more indicative of a metabolism disorder than an acute muscle injury.

He was a bit perturbed that the enzymes are so high despite T being on a low carb (total forage diet with <10% starch and sugar combined) diet since May, and said that in May it was likely the enzymes would have been much higher.

T has never shown any overt signs of tying up, so now I have to manage this, with regular blood tests for the time being. I'm going to start her on a PSSM diet and basically do a lot of reading on muscule metabolism disorders in horses.

I've cancelled all of my future lessons, and will have to don my big girl pants and get hacking, at least until I can build up her regular exercise to the intensity of a schooling session.

Despite this, there is still the issue of the "non-standard" ovaries, so I'm still waiting for the results of the hormone panel.

I'm expecting to have an indeterminate discussion with the first vet again, once I get the results of the PSSM test back.

I am fairly gutted about all of this, as being on livery in France is not the ideal situation for a "special needs" pony :/
 
This is not great news .
I have not got any clever advice , you just have to do the best you can with everything you have .
Fatty has partial anhidrosis ( non sweating syndrome )and he has these tying up incidents where he experiances non of the stiffness and inability to move you would expect to see, the only way you know it's if you see his pee ( it's Coke coloured )you get a blood test and it's off the scale for the markers usually seen in azoturia.
Not the same as Tantine I know ,but even though the vets have no concrete answers about what's going on with him he now 15 and still working and enjoying his life .
I have learnt how to manage him over the years .
This may not be the disaster it seems today it's likely there's a way through it .
 
It's a disappointing result, but you are closer to knowing what you are dealing with so that's a positive thing. Keeping my fingers crossed that the vets can help you draw up a management regime that fits in with French livery. Chin up. You're doing all the right things x
 
Latest update:

I'm still waiting for the results of the blood test (PSSM type 1 is tested via blood over here/in Germany), but in the meantime, I have the ALCAR and vitamin E oil on order. I had some vitamin E powder in my "apothecary" from a while ago, so I'm trying to get Tartine to eat that; though it appears that my very unfussy mare doesn't like the taste of it, so I'm going to have to come up with a way of disguising it. I was thinking about a pureed carrot.

In other news, I had a different osteopath come to see her, after the vet said T was completely blocked in her back again. This osteo is a lady who has a slightly different philosophy than the ones I normally use; much more gentle and more into massage, especially along the back. It was very interesting. T was completely locked up in all her thoracic vertebrae, had a bit of relief in her lumbar vertebrae but locked up again through the last 2 lumbar and her sacral vertebrae. The vet had noted that T wasn't carrying her tail, and the osteo confirmed that her tail had basically been locked up in a clamped position. After the manipulation it was a lot better. The osteo asked to see T being lunged to see how she was moving, and after a week of no work, I could see how stiff she was, completely not tracking up in trot. Normally I would have said she was being lazy, but now I can see that she is actually stiff.

When it came to her haunches (and T has a lot of muscle mass there), the osteo said that although the surface muscle was quite pliant the deep muscles were very contracted. She recommended a colleague who has a special massaging device to come and evaluate T because at the moment her muscles are so tight that they are going to keep making everything else lock up/pull out of alignment. This lady is based north of Strasbourg (more than an hour and a half away), but fortunately I am going to share a call out with another client on the yard.

In the meantime, I've made the decision to stop riding T until I can get her diet and initial therapy sorted out, I'll retest her blood in a month to make sure her enzymes are coming down and then we'll start from the beginning, 30 mins walking and build up from there.

I am absolutely gutted that I didn't take more notice of her overall symptoms, rather that looking at the canter problem as a training issue (a few weeks ago T lay down to roll, got up and down several times and displayed other mildly colicky symptoms. I stayed to watch her for a couple of hours, be she seemed fine so I shrugged and put it down to "one of those things"' she often rubs all the way along the walls of her box, which I've always attributed to either being itchy, or with her being in season; she rolls A LOT in the field - the first thing she does when put out is roll 6 or 7 times). One thing I have noted though, is that the symptoms do seem to be cresendoing, so I really hope I've managed to stave off a catastrophic tying up episode.

Of course if she does come back positive for PSSM, it is going to be a real blow to the breed, which is still considered to be an endangered breed (only 460 foals registered last year and 70 approved stallions), and as they almost became extinct in the 70s, bloodlines are very close, and it is almost impossible not to have two Merens related at some point in the previous 3 generations.
 
hi casey,you said you did your first half pass recently so you are doing great, if its any help i`ve found that they don`t lose the ability to work at the level they are at even with time off, just the fitness, obviously, but my neighbour walks out my stallion in hand and after his work is wonderful! so what i`m trying to say is even if you can`t ride perhaps you can get her out for walks, its a great for conditioning the whole horse, and you will still be doing something to her overall benefit, mental and physical.

hopefully one day in the not too distant future you will be sorted and looking back on this episode, the things we have to go through with horses!.
 
If she has PSSM no exercise will make her worse. Also, massage is of limited help at this stage if a) diet is not right, b) exercise is not carried out. c) correct supplementation isn't in place.

So, if she were mine I would be hand walking her or setting up a track, minimum.

They don't need to have an outwardly full blown tie up to be tying up. My mare had CK and AST levels off the scale (scale goes up to 100,000 normal being low hundreds) and her symptoms were not tracking up when she usually over tracks and a bit grumpy when she's usually very friendly. Outwardly she was hardly noticeably ill, inside she was close to severe damage. The vet misdiagnosed her as slightly colicky and it was only because I saw her urine and we tested her levels that we knew the extent of the tie up.

That was nearly 2 years ago now and she has led (with the right management) a near normal life since.

However if I had listened to several vets, dietitians and other "experts" about what to feed and what to do, the outcome may not be quite as good.

Make sure no supplements or anything else she eats contains fillers or molasses. Nearly every off the shelf supplement will be bulked out with some sort of junk she can't have.

Is your powdered vitamin e natural or synthetic. If synthetic she needs double the amount of natural. If natural she needs 5000-10000iu per day. I wouldn't use synthetic myself as natural is more bioavailable. Also I'm sure you know this but be careful it doesn't contain selenium. I had a woman contact me for advice last week who had been doubling the supplement to provide more vit e without realising the implications of too much se.

Unfortunately it only requires one copy of the gene to make the horse symptomatic so highly difficult to breed out in such a small gene pool. Also people will be in denial because they always are.

It's not a death sentence but it's something buyers need to stand together about and encourage breeders to test and eradicate.
 
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