:( any ideas? Vet will be called next week

HK, I'm sure many of us here can give you names of specific vets at hospitals in your area that have been helpful for us. My horse showed only 1/10th on one leg on lunge, but the vet I was referred to (at Liphook), went above and beyond to get to the bottom of it as it was an on going on/ off issue. I can pm name if you'd like x
 
As with LaurenBay, I would continue working him.
The fact he improves with time off tells you there is something wrong as he worsens as soon as he is in work. Or just retire him full stop if he's ok just in the field.
You want to make him as bad as possible to give the vets a chance to see what's wrong, especially given it's been so intermittent already.
I would want a referral to a different practice this time round (you're lucky to have a few to choose from!)
I'd clip his legs out so they have the best view of his movement as possible (thankfully hair grows back ;) )
And if needsbe I'd leave him and his tack there for a few days for them to work him multiple times to be able to see the problem.
At least you now have a ridden video of the issue!

Tom Beech and Rob Jackson ARE fantastic vets (I've dealt with both) but I'm not sure what access they have to diagnostic equipment? (Sure Robs website at least used to say he refers clients back to their own vet if he feels the horse is lame.) So a useful process for another view and if there's an actual problem but wouldn't necessarily give more answers. You're not too far out of Robs area I don't think so you don't necessarily have anything to lose by having him out but I wouldn't necessarily expect that to be a magic cure.

If it helps, mine went to Liphook (few years ago now) as virtually everything my vet did found an issue 🙄 Liphook bone scanned and did additional diagnostics and were able to identify what were actual issues and what were there but not causing active issues.
BUT to start with they also rang me to say they had trotted her up etc and she was sound. I asked if they'd put a rider on, was told no, so asked them to do so. I had a call about an hour later saying Oh yes, we see what you mean...
Sometimes you just have to be firm and push for these things!
(As a further aside, Liphook wrote off said horse entirely, we got her sound and in full work for 2 and a half years and she has now broken down again - insurance pot is well and truly long gone, and we are now trying to work out which of her many issues are the problem or if it's new problems. My vet is fantastic, very pragmatic and if our next try (hocks and ulcers) doesn't work she will either be turned away IF I can find a suitable place (she also has EMS so is not a good candidate for living out all year round!) Or PTS. She is like Strawberry, a lovely natured pony that everyone loves.
So please believe me when I say I understand the heartache involved in these cases, I really do feel for you and know how frustrating it is for these not quite right types!
 
Horsekaren said:
My worry is, he was referred in summer, and they began to work him up and then stopped at the ridden assessment as he seemed sound, because all i had to show them was what he was doing on the long lines earlier (same as the video on this post, same as before) I got him to do it about 10 times on the long lines in front of the vet but they didnt know what to make of it. This is my worry, he will work up sound on the ground and no doubt work up sound ridden if he is in a new place. I then show the videos and there is umming and arring as to whether it is pain at all. We did the bute trail and he was great on the bute, after the bute 6 weeks slowly things are falling apart. So its not like he came off the bute and went lame. A bone scan was discussed but i was told that they can show everything or they can show nothing at all and i felt that i was kind of being dismissed. Its not that i am ignoring him i am listening to him so much but as i keep being told its inconsistent. I still have at 7 months left on the insurance and im worried im going to send him somewhere and they are going to tell me the same thing.
I have to keep him in some sort of work as the rest around the time of the work up may have been why he came up sound.
I like the idea of getting one of the back vets as in theory that is a forth vet that will have seen him, being a vet if he sees him and thinks something is wrong that he cant help then they will send me on my way to the hospital. Please remember the last two vets declared him sound.
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Hi HK

If you have a look at my thread I posted last week I'm at the point of having my horse assessed for back pain with the next step being sent him away for bone scans. I wasn't keen on sending him away but the advice on here was really positive and other suggestions were also made which has helped loads. This is also for back pain, he trots up sound and legs are fine and feel as though this is his next step. I am prepared for follow up xrays after the scans to get a full picture, as well as for not good news but at least I'll have answers at last and know what I can do for him to be happy. I've had him reexamined and now waiting for the go ahead from my insurance to send him.

Have a look at some of the replies I've had, it may help or may not but good luck whatever you decide. I'll post updates on my thread if and when I know more myself.
 
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OP, I’ve referred several horses for lameness investigations. The most recent one I really had to push because she didn’t appear ‘too bad’ when up at the hospital and they were prepared to cut investigations early because they didn’t feel some things were worth doing. However, I knew there was something very wrong with the horse, despite the fact that it didn’t always show when she was at the hospital (I think and adrenaline had a huge part to play in this). I am fortunate in that I have 30 years experience, I have had numerous horses referred to the hospital for a variety of weird and wonderful issues and I understand how things work. I specifically asked for certain scans, despite the fact I had a senior vet tell me I was likely wasting my money (Horse was no longer insured). My insistence and persistence got me the answer. The scan I was told would be pointless gave us the answer.

Send the horse in for a full work up and tell them to leave absolutely no stone unturned. Send them the videos you have shown us, make notes as to the main issue the horse has and your concerns and take them with you.
Most hospitals, in a case like this where it’s not obvious where the issue is, will send the Horse for a bone scan first. Yes, they can throw up a number of false positives, but this is where the detective work and the expertise of the vets come in to try and decide if the things showing could be causing those symptoms. They then have an idea of where to carry on their investigations.
I’ve had 2 horses bone scanned in recent years, and both were pivotal in pinpointing the eventual problem.
 
i am a huge fan of both Tom Beech and Rob Jackson and suggested you get them out. They see a lot of very odd things as they tend to be last chance saloon for people. BUT I thought I was really clear that I meant in the window of time between you booking the work up and him going. It usually takes a few days at least to get it organised, so if you could get an emergency appointment with Tom or Rob then do it.

In fact I'd got further, use Tom. Ring him tomorrow and send him the video and get his input. Hes a good guy, he will engage with you.

Then pick up the phone again and book the referral. If Tom can fix him, then cancel the referral, no harm done, amazing outcome for Strawberry and you. If not then off he goes for the referral anyway and you've ticked the last possible other option off your list before hand without anymore delays.
 
and if Tom doesn't fix him he might well have a hunch of where to look.

I do think more 'experts' will happily have a look at photos and videos than we usually think too, and the movement he shows is quite specific, and it seems repeatable something may well come of that.
 
Youve been given loads of solid advice on this thread, HK. Please follow it. There is very little point in you analysing his every move now and getting yourself tied up in knots. Step back. If you need to do something between now and when he gets seen keep a factual diary of his symptoms. "Worked 20 mins in walk, lame for 10 steps after 5 minutes..." etc etc. So you quantify what you mean by "frequent" or "intermittent" etc. But without worrying about what it could mean. Video as much as you can.

I really hope you can get to grips with this and get some answers. If anyone tries to tell you that he's sound you say "he is not" and show them the videos. Then you say "and I'm paying you to find out why he's not so please do so"
 
I've seen or heard of horse after horse 'fixed' by one or another bodywork practioner with many and varied well respected letters after their names. 'Fixed' after one set of manipulations (sometimes more), only to break again several months later and need repeating treatments, retirement or even PTS.

If you fall into that trap Karen, you will be out of your insurance with possibly nowhere to turn to get proper diagnostics because it will cost thousands of pounds you might not have.

Please dont go down the single practitioner route. Please, please get him to a big hospital with a scintigraph machine and get him properly diagnosed while your insurance will pay for it.
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ok, going to seek a referral, last question , would you go with the same hospital that he was referred to in the summer ( smaller hospital) have a bone scanner or would you ask for another? They treated him lovely and as frustrating as it was I knew it was a tricky one as he worked up fine so it was hard finding something to go on :(
 
Horsekaren said:
ok, going to seek a referral, last question , would you go with the same hospital that he was referred to in the summer ( smaller hospital) have a bone scanner or would you ask for another? They treated him lovely and as frustrating as it was I knew it was a tricky one as he worked up fine so it was hard finding something to go on :(
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I would go to a large animal hospital. When I took mine I pre warned them that the lameness was so slight it was tricky to see and asked for their top lameness person. People are differently gifted and some can spot a lameness at a much more subtle level than others. I would make sure they have all the equipment that you need. I would bank on leaving him there for 4 days. That could be for a leg a day or it could be because it takes him a few days to settle and show the lameness.

Near me is Rainbow equine. I am not sure which is the big one near you.

Before you do this, I noticed that someone said you have been mentioning symptoms for 2 years. If this is so, you may already be 'out' of insurance. Be aware that with a big claim, the insurance company will ask for a full record for the horse and can then exclude a lameness, even if there was no specific exclusion on renewal. It is, however possible to get a proper OK for treatment prior to signing up for anything expensive.

There have been people caught unawares just because at vaccination they mentioned the horse being a bit stiff, the vet writes it down and hey presto, 12 months later the horse is not insures retrospectively.
 
Horsekaren said:
ok, going to seek a referral, last question , would you go with the same hospital that he was referred to in the summer ( smaller hospital) have a bone scanner or would you ask for another? They treated him lovely and as frustrating as it was I knew it was a tricky one as he worked up fine so it was hard finding something to go on :(
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No. I would send him to someone who hasnt seen him before,one of the bigger practices. You dont need to ask them to do anything THEY will investigate. You tell them everything that you have had done with him, show all the videos and basically say ' my horse is lame please fix him"

The Vets will then conduct their own examination of him and hopefully will find out what the problem is. Good luck.
 
I would go to a larger one. I want to AHT in Newmarket with my mare who the vets told me 4 times was sound and just needed riding through it all. The vet even rode her at one point and said there was no lameness. I took my mare up to AHT within 2 weeks and she stayed for a whole week and was diagnosed with SI, PSD in both hinds and negative rotation of her pedal bones in both front feet at 9 years old. To say it was upsetting was an understatement BUT I got answers. Sue Dyson did the work up with my mare and whilst her bedside manner was a little lacking her diagnostics were spot on!
 
ok, whilst im organizing that the horse back vet is going to come and see him early next week and ive stressed i want him looked at but not treatment. he has looked at videos and wants to come and see him. like someone above said if he is compensating for things ect it would be good for me to be able to tell the vets that he has said he is sore over SI, Leg, Shoulder, lack of mobility so if they work him up and he goes ok i can tell them these issues have been identified and keep pushing, pop him in for a bone scan and hopefully everything will all start to make sense. I know he is spoken very highly of so just to have a specialist see him in the flesh will help put my mind in order for the referral. I am not expecting him to fix him and this wont delay the referral.
 
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Horsekaren said:
ok, whilst im organizing that the horse back vet is going to come and see him early next week and ive stressed i want him looked at but not treatment. he has looked at videos and wants to come and see him. like someone above said if he is compensating for things ect it would be good for me to be able to tell the vets that he has said he is sore over SI, Leg, Shoulder, lack of mobility so if they work him up and he goes ok i can tell them these issues have been identified and keep pushing, pop him in for a bone scan and hopefully everything will all start to make sense. I know he is spoken very highly of so just to have a specialist see him in the flesh will help put my mind in order for the referral. I am not expecting him to fix him and this wont delay the referral.
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Karen if you were a professional working in a top class referral hospital, would you be happy if an owner walked in with a horse and said 'I got this guy who didn't have any big diagnostic tools with him and didn't even do nerve blocks take a look and just from manipulating him he said it's x and y?

Where he is stiff and sore is not necessarily the cause of his issues. I've heard of all the individual practitioners mentioned on this thread 'fixing' horses which go on to break again months later because the source of the issue has not been found and fixed.

I think this is a bad move. You should decide on one set of professionals and stick with them.
 
Horsekaren said:
ok, whilst im organizing that the horse back vet is going to come and see him early next week and ive stressed i want him looked at but not treatment. he has looked at videos and wants to come and see him. like someone above said if he is compensating for things ect it would be good for me to be able to tell the vets that he has said he is sore over SI, Leg, Shoulder, lack of mobility so if they work him up and he goes ok i can tell them these issues have been identified and keep pushing, pop him in for a bone scan and hopefully everything will all start to make sense. I know he is spoken very highly of so just to have a specialist see him in the flesh will help put my mind in order for the referral. I am not expecting him to fix him and this wont delay the referral.
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In the nicest possible way. I would say it was a waste of money.
 
nothing wrong in taking an OPINION, HAVING look, but not treating til diagnosed, you need the diagnoses, then when something positive is found treat what is found, as long as its a mystery nothing will be helpful long .term
 
I would definitely support the idea of now using a specialist vet.

i can personally recommend Tom Beech, amazing results.

Have also heard good reports of Liz Barr, lameness specialist barrequine.co.uk
 
surely the point of a referral centre is to take the info that is available from all sources and then use their additional facilities and expertise to decide what info is useful, what is not, and proceed from there as they see fit. I can't see them being annoyed by this way forward, personally I probably wouldn't be doubling up but I understand the OP's desire to cover all bases.
 
I don’t see the issue with getting Rob to take a look at him in the meanwhile. As long as he is booked into the referral vets for a work up ASAP after. I would also keep riding him, as from what I can gather it’s only walk with a small amount of trot, and you need him to show the same symptoms when the vets see him (you have said he improves with rest).
 
I don’t see any problem with the horse being examined and treated by an osteo or chiro vet before the referral date, as long as the referral is not delayed.

My vet and chiro vet work in conjunction, no egos to be trodden on. Regular vet has recently seen my 8yo after she’s had (another, grr) splat fall in the field, thinks she’s injured her stifle. Reg vet happy that chiro vet sees and treats her before I take her in for a workup with reg vet at horespital, and reports in on what she finds. Chiro vet came yesterday and confirmed the stifle suspicion, but dealt with other issues on the other side and front end arising from the fall. I’ll be booking the mare in to horsepital ASAP.

Removing compensatory stiffness before a workup makes the prime lameness easier to identify.
 
It's not going to make a blind bit of difference whether Strawberry is worked between now and then, or has physio, chiro or any other O beforehand, because what he needs is bone scanning and proper diagnostics. I haven't seen a single video of him, ever, where he has looked properly sound (and there have been a lot posted since the OP bought him), and added to all the other problems there have been with him (breathing problem, ulcers, weight management, sleep deprivation, not wanting to lie down, jogging, barging, tanking off etc etc) all of which point to pain, no decent vet should be sending him home until they have answers.

In my head I keep going back to the photos of Strawberry when (a) he was a muscled, fit driving horse and (b) when he was very skinny and weak, with no muscle and looking frankly sick. I also question why such a super looking driving cob would be sold on as a riding horse to an inexperienced owner, and I genuinely wonder if there was some sort of traumatic event (not unheard of with driving horses) which resulted in injury which is now over the long term getting worse and worse.

Plenty of people patch a horse up after an accident and then quietly sell it on while it's looking ok, and it's the subsequent owner who has to deal with the consequences.
 
Rowreach said:
Plenty of people patch a horse up after an accident and then quietly sell it on while it's looking ok, and it's the subsequent owner who has to deal with the consequences.
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definitely agree with this, I have one, I'll never know what happened to her but it had enough of an impact to end her working life. Fortunately she's a happy field ornament and she'll stay here until such time that her problems catch up with her but an unscrupulous person could tart her up and sell - again - as a project...
 
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