Any tips for tight muscles? (horse)

tobiano1984

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Far more sensible to see a vet about it who may or may not advise x-rays. No pracitioner should touch a horse without vet approval for this very reason i.e cowboy diagnosis by untrained people (e.g via the internet)

Far more sensible not to throw your opinion in when you have very few facts!
1. I've owned the horse for 2 years during which time he's gone from unrideable to winning in various disciplines so I must be doing something right and his issues at the moment are barely perceptible unless you know him well
2. Of course he's seen a vet, and surprise surprise they haven't at any point even suggested x rays for tense muscles..! Initially when he had issues with his SI/pelvis they suggested x ray if it wasn't improved by the osteopath, but it was.
3. The osteopath who treats him does so with veterinary approval as required and stipulated by law
 

FfionWinnie

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Far more sensible to see a vet about it who may or may not advise x-rays. No pracitioner should touch a horse without vet approval for this very reason i.e cowboy diagnosis by untrained people (e.g via the internet)


"Cowboys" on the internet saved my horse's life when no local vet had a clue and told me to feed her the wrong things for the condition due to their ignorance.
 

BBP

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I've got some alcar if you want some to try? I wouldn't be able to send it til the weekend earliest though.
 

ycbm

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Far more sensible to start with the cheap and likely diagnosis than to crash on with X-rays for a muscle disorder, which is highly likely to be the cause of the problems and will not be diagnosed with X-rays anyway.

This. The horse is a likely candidate given its breeding. The disease is being discovered to be far more widespread than has previously been realised. It can cause exactly the behaviours the horse has already shown in previous homes on the wrong diet with too little work. The diet is harmless unless the horse is fat and fed too many calories. And the owner should know in two weeks or less if the horse has been helped by it, avoiding a vet call out and examination fee.

I find Susiet's suggestion of x rays for generalised, whole body muscle stiffness in a horse with draft genes a little bit ridiculous, and I'm always one of the first people to recommend back x rays for horses.
 

paddy555

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Eh -tight horse who repeatedly had tight muscles, came with a history of disliking being ridden - any chiropracter worth their salt should have been working with a horse like this after vet investigation to identify the underlying problem.
Random supplements and possible diagnoses is unlikely to help - there is a reason why he gets tight muscles.
Having told us his history hard to see how you say there's nothing wrong now..

mine started off with the chiropractor, an excellent one, but whilst he found problems chiropractic was not the actual cause of the problems, it helped but did not resolve the problem. Then we went down the colic and horse hospital route but no progress there as to what the final problem was, then considered the hind gut area, lots of symptoms, highly likely but it was only a symptom not the root cause.
Finally had to consider RER when he landed on the ground. Then slightly higher AST and CK levels started to ring alarm bells. Vet researched on one side and myself on the other and we both came up with the same conclusion ie possible PSSM.

There is no cure for PSSM. The only thing you can do is diet and looking after the muscles ie rugging/exercise sheets/exercise etc.

The diet does not harm the horse, it is not expensive to try, it just needs some research and understanding. It can soon show results that suggest you are on the right track and then the horse can be either hair tested or muscle biopsied if you want to confirm it.

At some stage if you are looking at muscle problems then PSSM will come into it and the only tests are diet or muscle biopsy/hair test. Many want to have some idea they are going in the right direction before having their horse cut open.

So for a potential PSSM horse then random supplements, most especially vit E, do help and point in the right direction.
 

FfionWinnie

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I find Susiet's suggestion of x rays for generalised, whole body muscle stiffness in a horse with draft genes a little bit ridiculous, and I'm always one of the first people to recommend back x rays for horses.


It seems her MO is to try to make a fool of people. Her ignorance of the disorder has meant it's backfired this time.

I'm all for involving the vet but with PSSM there is very little the vet can do, in fact it takes some of them all they've got to just diagnose it. I expect lots of "problem horses" have PSSM or a similar muscle myopathy because the symptoms can appear random, until you understand what you're dealing with then it all starts falling into place.
 

SusieT

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I always find it absoloute astounding that people will go to a less qualified person repeatedly but refuse to keep an experienced equine vet involved or go to them as a first call - but will believe keyboard warriors who say it sounds like what their horse had. Next will be ' but my vet doesn't know' despite the fact the vet bases their opinion on seeing far increased numbers of horses so can base if on more than just 'what my horse had and the internet said'.
But anyway- if he's under vet care all well and good, it didn't sound like it in the original posts.
 

paddy555

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I always find it absoloute astounding that people will go to a less qualified person repeatedly but refuse to keep an experienced equine vet involved or go to them as a first call - but will believe keyboard warriors who say it sounds like what their horse had. Next will be ' but my vet doesn't know' despite the fact the vet bases their opinion on seeing far increased numbers of horses so can base if on more than just 'what my horse had and the internet said'.
But anyway- if he's under vet care all well and good, it didn't sound like it in the original posts.

But my vet didn't know!!! that is the point. A lot of vets don't know about PSSM. Certainly they don't know enough. When my vet finally suggested PSSM I asked how many they had dealt with. "none" If it wasn't for the "warriors" on the PSSM forum I would still be pretty stuck.
Many people don't ask their vets to consider this as they simply don't know it exists. Look at all the PSSM horses who have been wrongly diagnosed until someone finally works it out.

Of course people should always take veterinary advice and of course "keyboard warriors" cannot diagnose. However their experience can point people in that direction to get it checked out. Many people have never heard of PSSM/EPSM let alone have any idea of the symptoms or management.

have you personally dealt with one?
 

Slightlyconfused

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Any of you feed a fussy eater? Want to try my 7 year old on mag ox as he can be tense in his muscles but he won't eat hard feed except a handful of Bailey's high fibre nuggets.
 

ycbm

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Any of you feed a fussy eater? Want to try my 7 year old on mag ox as he can be tense in his muscles but he won't eat hard feed except a handful of Bailey's high fibre nuggets.

Yup, that's why I feed cubes. Fussy isn't the word!

In summer, I have to hook the bucket over his nose and feed it in through the gap in his teeth. He spits out nine tenths of it, but we get there in the end. It's only that he'd probably die without it that keeps me sane! Plus, he's rather gorgeous :)
 

Slightlyconfused

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Yup, that's why I feed cubes. Fussy isn't the word!

In summer, I have to hook the bucket over his nose and feed it in through the gap in his teeth. He spits out nine tenths of it, but we get there in the end. It's only that he'd probably die without it that keeps me sane! Plus, he's rather gorgeous :)

He is having Liverpool cream on two sarcoids so and was getting a bit stressed being in/has a cough in winter so wanted to put some breathing supplement in but would the sod eat it? Nope...picked the nuggets out and left the rest grr.
 

ycbm

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I share your pain :)

Mine can pick calcined magnesite the size of a grain of sand out of chaff :(

On the plus side, he adores both sarc-ex and alcar.

He's much easier in winter but I am already dreading spring!
 

FfionWinnie

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SusieT you havent got a clue what your talking about, funnily enough, that's the same as most vets when it comes to PSSM.

If the OP's horse has PSSM, the diet could give it a normal life. If the OP's horse does not have PSSM trying the diet will do it no harm at all.

PSSM is a genetic muscle disorder whereby instead of burning glycogen for energy it is stored in the muscles. PSSM - polysaccharide storage myopathy is common in many breeds including drafts and cobs of which type the OP's horse is. The symptoms of PSSM are varied, ranging from nothing noticeable to the uninitiated to complete exercise intolerance. Just about every PSSM horse I know about has had batteries of tests costing thousands of pounds before PSSM has come up as a last ditch thing to test for.

I, a mere horse owner, can talk for longer and in a more scientific and informative way than most general practice vets could, about PSSM. It's my specialist subject, they have many, I have one.

You can try to insult me and others who are only trying to help the OP, by calling us keyboard warriors but the fact remains that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to this disorder.

The hair test I've referred to is a genetic test handled by Animal Genetics - my vet didn't even know this test existed. It took a whole bunch of "keyboard warriors" to advise me on what to do with my horse and they not only saved her life they helped give her a productive normal life.

My vet (who is one of the top equine specialists in Scotland) and two other practices also with equine specialists ALL told me to feed selenevite e, this is totally unsuitable for a PSSM horse because it contains sugars. Most supplements do contain nasties that PSSM horses cannot tolerate. Vets and feed reps generally don't know any better, although my vets have had to learn because I've pushed them to do so by knowing a lot more than they did. They also told me her original diet which included many "killer" items was ideal!

Vets do not know everything. The real PSSM specialist vets (in the USA where disease diagnosis and testing is far further forward than in the UK) recommend the exact diet, exercise and test procedures I and others have suggested on this thread.

I will reiterate, vit e, mag ox, and everything else I have advised is not only safe but beneficial for any horse. Furthermore if the horse has PSSM, the stress from vet procedures such as X-rays could make him worse. So why on earth wouldn't you start with the easy and likely end of the spectrum.
 

Slightlyconfused

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Oh and a another question lol sorry.

If a horse has both parents tested pssm negative, that's all it says on passport, does that mean the horse can't get it or can there be the odd mutation? Like in human genetics?
 

FfionWinnie

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Oh and a another question lol sorry.

If a horse has both parents tested pssm negative, that's all it says on passport, does that mean the horse can't get it or can there be the odd mutation? Like in human genetics?

There are two types of PSSM, type 1 diagnosed by DNA (hair, blood) and type 2 diagnosed by muscle biopsy.

There is also RER and some other similar but different muscle myopathies.

It would depend what method was used to test the parents. 5 panel screening in QH for instance, includes testing for type 1 only.

The other thing is they only need one copy of the gene to be symptomatic. There are no carriers, they are all affected to some degree. My mare is n/p1. One copy. Years ago they thought n/p1 horses had less symptoms but now it seems it's a lottery and you can't tell.
 

ycbm

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Oh and a another question lol sorry.

If a horse has both parents tested pssm negatIve, that's all it says on passport, does that mean the horse can't get it or can there be the odd mutation? Like in human genetics?

What test? They can both hair test negative for it and one or both have type 2 for which there is no genetic test.

They could, theoretically, both biopsy negative if they are absolutely perfectly controlled by diet.

Cross posted :)

Why were the parents tested? That doesn't sound normal unless the breeders were concerned?
 
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FfionWinnie

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What test? They can both hair test negative for it and one or both have type 2 for which there is no genetic test.

They could, theoretically, both biopsy negative if they are absolutely perfectly controlled by diet.

Cross posted :)

As I understand it, there is is something in the shape of the cells that lets them diagnose a horse from a biopsy even if it's not symptomatic. That may only be if you get the biopsy read by a specialist of course.

Type 2 is being researched heavily now and it sounds like the research is all pointing toward it also being a genetic disorder.

They are hoping to get an easier test for it as well.

QHs have to be tested for registration now.
 

ycbm

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As I understand it, there is is something in the shape of the cells that lets them diagnose a horse from a biopsy even if it's not symptomatic. That may only be if you get the biopsy read by a specialist of course.

Type 2 is being researched heavily now and it sounds like the research is all pointing toward it also being a genetic disorder.

They are hoping to get an easier test for it as well.

QHs have to be tested for registration now.

I hope it's one disease and they find it, the type 2. I was completely shocked to read a study that 60% of horses with draft breeding have abnormal muscle biopsies.

My draft x is looking more and more likely to be positive. He's sweating a lot less, and his bum muscles are loosening.

This and the other thread have been REALLY interesting, thanks everyone :)
 

Slightlyconfused

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What test? They can both hair test negative for it and one or both have type 2 for which there is no genetic test.

They could, theoretically, both biopsy negative if they are absolutely perfectly controlled by diet.

Cross posted :)

Why were the parents tested? That doesn't sound normal unless the breeders were concerned?


With the British appaloosa society all registered stallions and colts have to be pssm tested and thdy recommend that any mares used for breeding be tested as well. From what can gather its type 1 the test for.

Thank you
 
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ycbm

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Ah, that's very sensibly of the BAS. I'm guessing it's the genetic test, and yours will be type 2 instead.
 

Slightlyconfused

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Ah, that's very sensibly of the BAS. I'm guessing it's the genetic test, and yours will be type 2 instead.

I know his dam has been tested too for this so will see if I can get him to eat anything other than a band full of nuggets.


There isn't anything glaringly obvious but certain things, like very tense in his body, stiffer on colder days etc that I'm noticing.

Anything to recommend to start feeding, one at a time so can find a chaff to mix with it. Would the mag ox be better to start with as am putting my other on it for feet.
 

BBP

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I wish there were this many informative threads about RER, it seems even less well understood than PSSM. Being told to minimise stress in my horse is like telling a depressed person to snap out of it.
 

paddy555

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I know his dam has been tested too for this so will see if I can get him to eat anything other than a band full of nuggets.


There isn't anything glaringly obvious but certain things, like very tense in his body, stiffer on colder days etc that I'm noticing.

Anything to recommend to start feeding, one at a time so can find a chaff to mix with it. Would the mag ox be better to start with as am putting my other on it for feet.

not sure where you are but I think vit E is the first thing if you are limited in what he will eat. It could well have the quickest results. I don't put vit e in feed, it is too expensive to waste. I feed it separately on a small piece of bread, that is only 4000iu per sandwich and the same pm. (you could use anything other than bread) My horses love it as a treat, it is tasteless and if I had problems I would feed another horse at the same time so the difficult one thought he was being left out and ate it through jealousy.
 

FfionWinnie

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I would syringe the sups in if they won't eat them.

I used to have an APH - terrible eater even in the depths of winter, she didn't have PSSM tho. I am lucky mine is a cob and she will eat what she's given :)
 

Slightlyconfused

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I would syringe the sups in if they won't eat them.

I used to have an APH - terrible eater even in the depths of winter, she didn't have PSSM tho. I am lucky mine is a cob and she will eat what she's given :)


Where do you get yours from? Is any of the equimins okay? I've got my tb on one of there straight herbs and its helping after a virus
 

RaYandFinn

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Sorry to highjack this thread everyone, but I've been doing some reading and this all sounds very familiar with my cob. I wonder if anyone can offer advice.

He's suffered with arthritic hocks for the last 5 years, but I'm beginning to wonder if we've been using that as an excuse when something else has been going on.

He has always been stiff with very tight muscles, tremors and ripples. Particularly over his hind quarters. He does sweat a lot and can be reluctant to work. Has gait abnormalities and various other things

I clipped him about 2 weeks ago which seems to have triggered this latest episode. My sharer went to ride him tonight... He was having none of it, but he is felt like a coiled spring the last two weeks.
He was very reluctant tonight and yesterday and almost looked as though he was tied up.

Can anyone offer any advice on symptoms and what to do next? Feed wise he's on a low sugar and starch mix from chestnut horse feeds, speedi beet, turmeric micronised linseed and pepper.

I'm really worried about the poor lad

TIA xx
 
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ycbm

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alcar smells ghastly and I allowed 2 weeks to work my way up grain by grain. He loved it and ate the full dose from day 1.!!!!
horses are very strange creatures.

I have to admit I taste every batch and I like it too :D. It's a bit like sherbet.

I was stunned when he ate it after turning his nose up at mag ox.
 
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