Any tips for tight muscles? (horse)

[BBP]

Mine liked the ALCAR too, and this is a horse who would rather starve than touch mycosorb, magox, forage plus vitamin e, forage plus balancer, bute, and most other things!

 

[FfionWinnie]

Where do you get yours from? Is any of the equimins okay? I've got my tb on one of there straight herbs and its helping after a virus

Get my what? Natural vit e oil from Equimins.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Sorry to highjack this thread everyone, but I've been doing some reading and this all sounds very familiar with my cob. I wonder if anyone can offer advice.

He's suffered with arthritic hocks for the last 5 years, but I'm beginning to wonder if we've been using that as an excuse when something else has been going on.

He has always been stiff with very tight muscles, tremors and ripples. Particularly over his hind quarters. He does sweat a lot and can be reluctant to work. Has gait abnormalities and various other things

I clipped him about 2 weeks ago which seems to have triggered this latest episode. My sharer went to ride him tonight... He was having none of it, but he is felt like a coiled spring the last two weeks.
He was very reluctant tonight and yesterday and almost looked as though he was tied up.

Can anyone offer any advice on symptoms and what to do next? Feed wise he's on a low sugar and starch mix from chestnut horse feeds, speedi beet, turmeric micronised linseed and pepper.

I'm really worried about the poor lad

TIA xx

If you look in Competing and training there's another thread on this subject which should answer your questions without us repeating ourselves.

Starting point would be animal generics PSSM test £30. All you do is pull tail hair and send it to them. Full details on their site. Most cobs are type 1, but they can be type 2 (or both!). I know of another cob who has RER. Tremors and ripples could be more likely to be RER, you would need a biopsy for that but like I say check out the other thread.

 

[RaYandFinn]

If you look in Competing and training there's another thread on this subject which should answer your questions without us repeating ourselves.

Starting point would be animal generics PSSM test £30. All you do is pull tail hair and send it to them. Full details on their site. Most cobs are type 1, but they can be type 2 (or both!). I know of another cob who has RER. Tremors and ripples could be more likely to be RER, you would need a biopsy for that but like I say check out the other thread.

Thanks for your reply

I've had a good read of the other thread (and lots of other things!- sleepless night for me!)

I'm going to speak to my vet today, but was wondering about starting him on the reccomended supplements, as I don't think it will do any harm. As I mentioned before, he is on a low sugar/starch diet.

My main question is... Vit e or alcar? I'm confused as to which to try. He is a good doer so reluctant to put him on too much oil. Also do you still feed mag ox with the Alcar?

Thanks

 

[ycbm]

It's oil or alcar. You use the vitamin e anyway.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks for your reply

I've had a good read of the other thread (and lots of other things!- sleepless night for me!)

I'm going to speak to my vet today, but was wondering about starting him on the reccomended supplements, as I don't think it will do any harm. As I mentioned before, he is on a low sugar/starch diet.

My main question is... Vit e or alcar? I'm confused as to which to try. He is a good doer so reluctant to put him on too much oil. Also do you still feed mag ox with the Alcar?

Thanks

you are describing a potential muscle problem therefore vit E is the first thing to add. perhaps around 8 - 10000iu to see a quicker response. The equimins one is cheaper £22pm for 8000iu

IF he is PSSM type 1 or 2 he will need vit E permanently, you may be able to cut the dose idc. I havent been able to

next thing is magox. You can use calcined magnesite which is cheaper but I prefer light mag ox as I find it most effective. You will be feeding around a 50 ml scoop per day. I split the magox between 2 feeds. Definitely split the vit E into two. I have found it works better if you feed this way. Again if he is PSSM he will be on magox permanently. Introduce the mag ox slowly and stop if he gets runny. If this happens keep the dose at that level for a while.

Is he on sufficient salt. The cheap tesco stuff is fine. I feed a 50ml scoop per day. Split between feeds.

you have now got him on the main supplements. Consider the type 1 test for £30.

Your vet may or may not be helpful. Many simply don't have the info. Many confuse the symptoms as they can be so like other things, eg colic, tying up, stiffness, arthritis.

Somewhere you said your horse almost tied up. Sorry can't remember where. If it was me I would get a general blood test from the vet anyway. Just to check liver, kidney function etc etc. It should also test the muscle enzymes. The clue for mine was high CK and AST levels. Not massively high like FW had but just a bit too high and not going down. There can be a lot of damage to a horse but not much to show on the outside so worth testing to see what is really going on.

Leave alcar ATM and leave the high oil. See what effects the high vit E have. Is the horse nicer, happier. Take a good look at the muscles on the bum. Those are what you are going to be constantly feeling and monitoring. Get the rugs (extra thick) and the exercise sheet sorted. Exercise daily if you can. If the horse is too ill to ride then after the blood test if possible start leading in hand. (obviously speak to your vet) PSSM is a disease that requires daily exercise.

If the vet wants to speak to anyone then google Kathy Mcgowan (Liverpool I think) or Richard Piercy.

Decide in your own mind what you want to do about a type 2 muscle biopsy. Do it or try the diet? There is no cure for PSSM it is purely controlled by management whatever the biopsy shows. However some people may prefer to know what they are dealing with.

Join the FB group search "pssm forum" read everything in all the files.

That should get you started and within a few days you will have worked a lot more out about PSSM. Don't worry. Many general vets may not have much experience of dealing with PSSM but there is soooo much background support now as everyone has worked out what is required for their particular horse.

Sorry this is a bit rushed and muddled. HTH

 

[paddy555]

RaYandFin
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

this is number one on the reading list if you haven't already found it.
good luck

 

[ycbm]

RaYandFin
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html

this is number one on the reading list if you haven't already found it.
good luck

This article is great but it does not mention acetyl l carnetine, alcar, which is a breakdown product of a amino acid that epsm horses can't make. I'm having huge success with mine on it, it has changed him into a normal horse and he does not need to be exercised every day or kept away from grass. He was caught very early, after only a few weeks in any kind of work, and is probably a mild case to start with, but the effects I felt on his muscles changing from oil to alcar were still startling.

The jury is back on my draft x after two weeks on alcar. Very noticeable increase in malleability of the hind quarters. Marked reduction in sweating. Weight loss, which I was really hoping for, as he is a very good doer. In theory the alcar will have opened up an ability for him to access his stored fat as a energy source, which he could not do before. If he doesn't have epsm too, I'll eat my hat.

Is there any advantage in getting a biopsy done, does anyone reckon? I'd kind of like to know, but it seems like a bit of a waste of money and neither are ever likely to be for sale.

 

[RaYandFinn]

you are describing a potential muscle problem therefore vit E is the first thing to add. perhaps around 8 - 10000iu to see a quicker response. The equimins one is cheaper £22pm for 8000iu

IF he is PSSM type 1 or 2 he will need vit E permanently, you may be able to cut the dose idc. I havent been able to

next thing is magox. You can use calcined magnesite which is cheaper but I prefer light mag ox as I find it most effective. You will be feeding around a 50 ml scoop per day. I split the magox between 2 feeds. Definitely split the vit E into two. I have found it works better if you feed this way. Again if he is PSSM he will be on magox permanently. Introduce the mag ox slowly and stop if he gets runny. If this happens keep the dose at that level for a while.

Is he on sufficient salt. The cheap tesco stuff is fine. I feed a 50ml scoop per day. Split between feeds.

you have now got him on the main supplements. Consider the type 1 test for £30.

Your vet may or may not be helpful. Many simply don't have the info. Many confuse the symptoms as they can be so like other things, eg colic, tying up, stiffness, arthritis.

Somewhere you said your horse almost tied up. Sorry can't remember where. If it was me I would get a general blood test from the vet anyway. Just to check liver, kidney function etc etc. It should also test the muscle enzymes. The clue for mine was high CK and AST levels. Not massively high like FW had but just a bit too high and not going down. There can be a lot of damage to a horse but not much to show on the outside so worth testing to see what is really going on.

Leave alcar ATM and leave the high oil. See what effects the high vit E have. Is the horse nicer, happier. Take a good look at the muscles on the bum. Those are what you are going to be constantly feeling and monitoring. Get the rugs (extra thick) and the exercise sheet sorted. Exercise daily if you can. If the horse is too ill to ride then after the blood test if possible start leading in hand. (obviously speak to your vet) PSSM is a disease that requires daily exercise.

If the vet wants to speak to anyone then google Kathy Mcgowan (Liverpool I think) or Richard Piercy.

Decide in your own mind what you want to do about a type 2 muscle biopsy. Do it or try the diet? There is no cure for PSSM it is purely controlled by management whatever the biopsy shows. However some people may prefer to know what they are dealing with.

Join the FB group search "pssm forum" read everything in all the files.

That should get you started and within a few days you will have worked a lot more out about PSSM. Don't worry. Many general vets may not have much experience of dealing with PSSM but there is soooo much background support now as everyone has worked out what is required for their particular horse.

Sorry this is a bit rushed and muddled. HTH

Thanks so much for your replies everyone. I really appreciate it.

I'm just waiting to speak to my vet and run things by her and see what she thinks. Will discuss blood test too. I will order some vit e and mag ox as a starting point....is the progressive earth vit e any good? or is the equiminis one better? Will go down the alcar route of needed as he's too round for oil!

I'm pretty sure I'll do the hair test as a starting point - I'll eat my hat if it comes back negative after everything I've read

Am trying to join the facebook group - but no one has accepted me

thanks again everyone

 

[RaYandFinn]

How much alcar do you feed ybcm?

 

[BBP]

This article is great but it does not mention acetyl l carnetine, alcar, which is a breakdown product of a amino acid that epsm horses can't make. I'm having huge success with mine on it, it has changed him into a normal horse and he does not need to be exercised every day or kept away from grass. He was caught very early, after only a few weeks in any kind of work, and is probably a mild case to start with, but the effects I felt on his muscles changing from oil to alcar were still startling.

The jury is back on my draft x after two weeks on alcar. Very noticeable increase in malleability of the hind quarters. Marked reduction in sweating. Weight loss, which I was really hoping for, as he is a very good doer. In theory the alcar will have opened up an ability for him to access his stored fat as a energy source, which he could not do before. If he doesn't have epsm too, I'll eat my hat.

Is there any advantage in getting a biopsy done, does anyone reckon? I'd kind of like to know, but it seems like a bit of a waste of money and neither are ever likely to be for sale.

I think the benefit of a biopsy lies in if what you are doing isn't working. We thought mine had PSSM, but it didn't matter if he was on grass or off it, had alcar or not, and I didn't want to try oil as he has bags of energy and is a fatty. So I went for the biopsy so I would know for sure. And it turns out he has RER so shoving loads of fat in him won't have the same effect as for a PSSM horse, I know now that his issues are linked to faulty calcium release.

But if you get results changing diet then I wouldn't bother with biopsy.

 

[ycbm]

how much alcar do you feed ycbm?

The recommendation I found was 10g, but the first horse I put on it is a big boy and I give him 15g. I only feed him once, and it still works. I think I'm very lucky he is so easy to manage, he did have symptoms that made it impossible to continue breaking him in.

It was fascinating. His backside was rock solid when I put him on the high oil diet last year. For a year he was very improved, much better muscle tone, no false colic any more. Then this summer I wanted him off oil so he didn't get fat, and went for alcar. What I though was normal muscle tone for him wasn't. His backside turned to a floppy flabby mass like a bag full of water.

Then he gradually built proper muscle tone which now feels elastic and strong, and packed on muscles all over his body as if he was down the gym every night. He also grew like topsy, but maybe he would have done that anyway, I don't know.

There were other changes too but I don't want to bore people.

 

[ycbm]

I think the benefit of a biopsy lies in if what you are doing isn't working. We thought mine had PSSM, but it didn't matter if he was on grass or off it, had alcar or not, and I didn't want to try oil as he has bags of energy and is a fatty. So I went for the biopsy so I would know for sure. And it turns out he has RER so shoving loads of fat in him won't have the same effect as for a PSSM horse, I know now that his issues are linked to faulty calcium release.

But if you get results changing diet then I wouldn't bother with biopsy.

Thanks. It would be interesting, but probably a waste of money. I hope you find a solution for your horse soon.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks so much for your replies everyone. I really appreciate it.

I'm just waiting to speak to my vet and run things by her and see what she thinks. Will discuss blood test too. I will order some vit e and mag ox as a starting point....is the progressive earth vit e any good? or is the equiminis one better? Will go down the alcar route of needed as he's too round for oil!

I'm pretty sure I'll do the hair test as a starting point - I'll eat my hat if it comes back negative after everything I've read

Am trying to join the facebook group - but no one has accepted me

thanks again everyone

the person running the FB group is American so don't worry. The US has probably only just got up!!!

vit e oil if possible should be natural not synthetic. The equimins product is synthetic. The cheaper PE product is synthetic. I costed out their new natural product and it was a LOT more expensive. The equimins product is oil. If you really wanted powder then the FP natural one would be the way to go although it is more expensive than the equimins one.

Don't get too excited by the hair test. Type 2 which is a muscle biopsy if perfectly possible.

 

[ycbm]

I'm using progressive earth powder vitamin e and having no problems with it.

 

[paddy555]

This article is great but it does not mention acetyl l carnetine, alcar, which is a breakdown product of a amino acid that epsm horses can't make. I'm having huge success with mine on it, it has changed him into a normal horse and he does not need to be exercised every day or kept away from grass. He was caught very early, after only a few weeks in any kind of work, and is probably a mild case to start with, but the effects I felt on his muscles changing from oil to alcar were still startling.

The jury is back on my draft x after two weeks on alcar. Very noticeable increase in malleability of the hind quarters. Marked reduction in sweating. Weight loss, which I was really hoping for, as he is a very good doer. In theory the alcar will have opened up an ability for him to access his stored fat as a energy source, which he could not do before. If he doesn't have epsm too, I'll eat my hat.

Is there any advantage in getting a biopsy done, does anyone reckon? I'd kind of like to know, but it seems like a bit of a waste of money and neither are ever likely to be for sale.

it doesn't mention alcar as I believe alcar came from Dr Kellon. My understanding is that she had concerns with the large amounts of oil and fat horses. There is an article by Dr K on the Forage plus website somewhere under articles.

On the biopsy question IF it was just a blood test or something similar I would have done it long ago. I am not quite so keen on a muscle biopsy although Kat has had no problems

I have had enough results to feel pretty confident and also looking at what actually happened with him I can see total energy loss at the time. Also in hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, I can see several years of this building up.

I understand from articles on the PSSM forum that a hair test for type 2 is being worked on and will be available before too long. This was at a lab in New Mexico not Minnisota. I would consider a hair test for type 2 providing the test was found to be accurate. However I understand from reading there are more than 2 types. Don't ask me for the reference, I think it was Minnisota, but would take me time to find it. I just remember reading it and thinking even if he was neg for 1 and 2 what about others?

I did also read of someone in the UK who tested positive but when revisited was more questionable. There has been a lot of discussion on the PSSM forum between testing by Valentine OSU and by Valberg minnisota. Apparently Valentine diagnoses type 2 by glycogen only but Valberg wants glycogen and polysacharide. Think that is or less right FW.

So I shan't test ATM unless something strange happens that changes things but mine will never be sold.

 

[paddy555]

the person running the FB group is American so don't worry. The US has probably only just got up!!!

vit e oil if possible should be natural not synthetic. The equimins product is synthetic. The cheaper PE product is synthetic. I costed out their new natural product and it was a LOT more expensive. The equimins product is oil. If you really wanted powder then the FP natural one would be the way to go although it is more expensive than the equimins one.

Don't get too excited by the hair test. Type 2 which is a muscle biopsy if perfectly possible.

sorry that should have said the equimins product is NATURAL. It wouldn't let me edit it.

 

[ycbm]

http://www.life-enhancement.com/mag...min-e-may-have-an-edge-over-natural-vitamin-e


Found this really useful when trying to find the difference between synthetic and natural vitamin e. It basically days synthetic vitamin e works, as shown in clinical studies, but that you need about two thirds more of it because the body takes up the natural form more.

I'm about to go and work out the sums for equimins vs progressive earth powder.

 

[paddy555]

http://forageplustalk.co.uk/epsm-muscle-disorder-by-dr-kellon-vmd/



for anyone still interested

 

[paddy555]

bit long but worth a read. The key word is bioavailability.


http://forageplustalk.co.uk/natural-versus-synthetic-vitamin-e-horses/

 

[Slightlyconfused]

http://www.life-enhancement.com/mag...min-e-may-have-an-edge-over-natural-vitamin-e


I'm about to go and work out the sums for equimins vs progressive earth powder.

Thank you so much for doing the sums.....I seriously cannot do math. My brain does not work that way

 

[RaYandFinn]

http://forageplustalk.co.uk/epsm-muscle-disorder-by-dr-kellon-vmd/



for anyone still interested

That's really interesting, thanks

 

[RaYandFinn]

If I start feeding the vit e and mag ox... Should I see an improvement quite quickly or is it a slower burn type thing? How do I know if/when I need the Alcar

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to understand how to best help my boy

 

[FfionWinnie]

the person running the FB group is American so don't worry. The US has probably only just got up!!!

vit e oil if possible should be natural not synthetic. The equimins product is synthetic. The cheaper PE product is synthetic. I costed out their new natural product and it was a LOT more expensive. The equimins product is oil. If you really wanted powder then the FP natural one would be the way to go although it is more expensive than the equimins one.

Don't get too excited by the hair test. Type 2 which is a muscle biopsy if perfectly possible.

The Equimins natural vit e oil is not synthetic, is that a typo?

http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/772-equimins-vitamin-e-oil.html

 

[FfionWinnie]

http://www.life-enhancement.com/mag...min-e-may-have-an-edge-over-natural-vitamin-e


Found this really useful when trying to find the difference between synthetic and natural vitamin e. It basically days synthetic vitamin e works, as shown in clinical studies, but that you need about two thirds more of it because the body takes up the natural form more.

I'm about to go and work out the sums for equimins vs progressive earth powder.

Pro earth is much more expensive. Equimins natural vit e oil is the cheapest natural vit e available in the UK, many of us have looked extensively...

 

[ycbm]

Pro earth is much more expensive. Equimins natural vit e oil is the cheapest natural vit e available in the UK, many of us have looked extensively...

If you buy the 1 litre bottle of natural oil, I made it work out pretty much the same money per month, £30, to feed double quantity of synthetic powder for 10000iu a day.

I like the powder, it's easy and clean, and I'm on a minimum amount for one horse, and I've just bought two kilos, , so I'll be staying with powder for a while.

 

[paddy555]

The Equimins natural vit e oil is not synthetic, is that a typo?

http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/772-equimins-vitamin-e-oil.html

yes, I corrected it about 2 posts later.

 

[paddy555]

Pro earth is much more expensive. Equimins natural vit e oil is the cheapest natural vit e available in the UK, many of us have looked extensively...

equimins oil is £22 per month for 8000iu.

 

[Queenbee]

diet is always key, and has been addressed thoroughly. However, whatever other adjustments to regimes I made, two things would be my initial priority... a qualified/certified good quality Equine massage therapist to loosen things up to start with, and grooming - about 1/2 - 1 hr after exercise to break up lactic acid build up paying specific attention to hot spots, I can not emphasise how beneficial and important this has been to my boy.

 

[Tangaroo]

Ive been quoted £89 for 1 litre of Equimins vit e and £79 for 1 litre of Nano-e