Anyone see CM get bitten by a Lab?

She initially went for his hand when he went for the food bowl at 0.18....which was when he upped the ante and the dog showed a bit of noise and teeth, then calmed down and relaxed.

The bite when he was talking to the owner, she went for him at about 1.12 without provocation, he withdrew and she went for him again and meant it at 1.13. Then the body language after that was completely calm again and relaxed.
I heard children mentioned, I would not want that dog around children but it is hard to know the context/environmental influences on her behaviour.
 
Poor dog, her whole body language was wrong. I don't know why he feels the need to tower over the dog. We have always had labs, rescued and straight from the breeder as pups. I have never seen one that bad. I would have thought it was better to get down at her level and sit a little distance from her, rather than crowding into her space. Lots of work needed on her. I certainly wouldn't trust her around kids.
 
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I have seen labs just like that one.
I would not want it near children -fine 99% of the time and then just like a switch being flicked.
 
Its got to be genetic, I wouldnt want a dog like that, she did attack when under no pressure and gave very mixed signals. I dont like his method of dominence though she struck me as a nervy dog.
 
Maybe it's something to do with the breeding but it's not something I have come across with any of ours. My kids have labs and I was brought up with them, luckily none were like that. Our latest is now 7 months old and an absolute superstar. Very obedient and has never shown anger towards people or other dogs.
 
If Im honest, I wouldnt give a dog a second chance to do that again.
Without getting into CM right/wrong debate somebody could do what he did (towering etc) by accident and come to the same fate and also IMO that wasnt a 'get away from my food' that was a full attack.
One bite, one nip I would work with. That, I would not.
Timebomb.
 
I think just his presence made a nervous dog even more so. Many many dogs would have disliked this man after the initial stand off over the food bowl. Most would have reacted to him being so up in their face no?
 
He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me.

I think there is a big issue in America with puppy farmers flooding the market with pisspoor quality Labradors due to the popularity of Marley & Me, which are then bought as 'family dogs' - they even have a white picket fence....
 
The body language is not that of a relaxed dog, even when she is laying down. If someone had just come at you like that in a pub for no apparent reason, would you be able to sit back at your table with the aggressor sitting right next to you and relax completely? If he suddenly lurched towards you again, a few minutes after the previous attack, your reaction would probably be more defensive in anticipation of more aggressive behaviour - if you slapped him, your reaction could look aggressive to someone who had just walked into the pub a few seconds before, but the reaction needs to be taken into context with the whole situation.
Even laying down, she keeps avoiding making eye contact with him, yawning, licking her lips, her body weight is pulled away from him and so on. And then to plonk his hand on her muzzle - an action that many dogs find uncomfortable anyway, let alone one that has just gone through a stressful interaction that he just did. It's not out of the blue aggression, it's a supposed expert on dogs creating a situation where there is a dog coiled up with fear and then pushing it until it explodes.
Even then, the dog acted fairly restrained - a bite to his hand, which was the body part threatening her, and then again with the avoidance/appeasement behaviours post bite - when she could have easily continued the attack. This is not a dog that wants to bite for no reason.
 
Quite possibly CC- but he put that dog on edge, not all dogs chill instantly- I know mine took 24hrs after one horrendous session with his behaviourist- CM must know this.

He goes to touch the already stressed dog.... she air snaps..... instead of just walking away quickly he towers over her, she bars her teeth- THEN bites.

So IMO it was not totally unprovoked. - far far from ideal behaviour obviously
 
I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home. Sad really.

P
 
PolarSkye said:
I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home. Sad really.

P
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It does matter because that dog was STRESSED.... it was not in an everyday situation- a stranger shoved it off its food, and stressed her- we all have the ability to act out of character whilst under pressure/ in a stressful situation.
 
A dog that cannot deal with pressure, is not the best sort of dog to be a family dog/around kids.
I am not sure I would call her 'nervous', but I am only looking at a short period of footage and we may all have different descriptions of different behaviours.

The biggest mistake he made, IMO, was taking his eyes off her.
 
CaveCanem said:
He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me.

I think there is a big issue in America with puppy farmers flooding the market with pisspoor quality Labradors due to the popularity of Marley & Me, which are then bought as 'family dogs' - they even have a white picket fence....
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No he wasn't, but what she did have was a camera crew on one side and him on the other - so essentially she was surrounded. I can see how that might contribute to a nervy dog biting.

I certainly agree about Labs with poor temperaments mind you, not just in America but also over here. Victims of their own popularity, poor sods. And to be fair many dogs would not react as she did in that situation. However, I can see how that situation would arise.
 
I agree with CC, the first was a nip and then she followed it up with a full on bite and meant it, all this when he was backing away. The fact she was giving mixed signals worried me, how do you read a dog like that, I know it was just a snapshot in time but my overall impression was a dog with a genetic problem and as CC said probabley poorly bred.
 
PolarSkye said:
I actually think it's irrelevant whether or not CM did or not get up in the dog's face . . . he didn't do anything an uneducated adult or young child might not do inadvertently . . . move the food, make a sudden movement towards the dog's face . . . and IMHO that dog is dangerous and shouldn't be in a family home. Sad really.

P
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Before I get lumped in as the "fluffy brigade" who'd let my dogs do anything...I don't disagree that something needs to be done but I don't know many young children who would act so aggressively towards a dog. I think his behaviour was very unnecessary - Victoria Stilwell manages to address resource guarding without pushing a dog to bite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjpP5EZC7HI&feature=player_embedded

My dogs resource guard on a very rare occasion - I know the trigger precisely actually, it's only when they get fed a whole raw rabbit (they're rawfed). They're a high value treat and they will not tolerate being approached by the other dog. I can go and take the rabbit away if I wanted to but I don't need to, so I don't. I keep them separate (used to use a physical barrier but don't need to any more), I monitor them at all times, and I would never feed it if there were visitors around, so no risk of them getting caught in the middle of a scrap if things were to go wrong. Simple methods that don't require pushing the dogs into reacting.

If you actually watch most dogs, including the dog in Cesar's video, you will notice them throwing out so many warnings - it would have been easy for anyone to avoid getting bitten by this dog because it made its discomfort so obvious. I think my doggy-clueless boyfriend could get the hint from this dog, and I know several non-dog owners/people with very limited dog experience have watched this video and picked up on how uncomfortable the dog is. A totally unnecessary, aggressive method designed to push the dog beyond its limits for "good" TV.

I don't think the dog was sending mixed messages at all, and would expect a so-called "dog whisperer" to find the dog's body language a lot easier to interpret that any old Joe Bloggs. I think most people would have the common sense not to try to stroke the face of a dog that has a history of aggression and that has just given so many clear warnings a few minutes prior, no matter how "relaxed" it seemed (which, again, I still stand by my view that the dog was showing plenty of signs it wasn't actually relaxed, which he'd have seen if he'd been watching it), let alone someone who claims to be a dog behaviourist.
 
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Jesus, I wouldnt have that dog near any children. Yes it may be fine 99% of the time, but theres that 1%, as this dog has shown, which could potentially do some very serious damage to a young child.

The dog went for CM when he was standing there addressing the owner, not paying attention to the dog. There was no eye contact from CM to the dog in order for there to be that sort of a reaction. By this point the whole food situation had passed and CM was inbetween the dog and the food.

This wasnt a 'warning' nip, this dog went for him and held on. CM had to kick it to make it let go.

CM 'towers' over the dog at the end to assert dominance and authority. The dog has to make the choice to back down and be submissive and know that that sort of behaviour wont be tollerated. The dog is not in charge, humans are.
 
amymay said:
What aggression did CM exhibit?
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Would you not feel intimidated if someone twice your size approached you like that when you were trying to eat your dinner? Hovered over you until you "submitted"? And then sat down right next to you, and reached out to you again?

Like I said before, saying that the dog bit CM when he was just sitting there is taking the action out of context. We, as humans, can react seemingly irrationally after a frightening event (think of someone screaming when they feel a tickle on their neck, if they've just come out of a garden shed full of spiders, or jumping from fright at every 'bang' they hear after a nasty car accident), the dog has been stressed to its limit (and prior to that, managed to restrain itself enough to not bite) so the hand approaching its face (like I said, many dogs dislike this action anyway - which is why patting a dog on its head isn't recommended) may not have been aggressive itself but the dog was still stressed out and reacted that extremely because of the prior events.
 
lexiedhb said:
It does matter because that dog was STRESSED.... it was not in an everyday situation- a stranger shoved it off its food, and stressed her- we all have the ability to act out of character whilst under pressure/ in a stressful situation.
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If either of my dogs behaved like that when stressed they'd be taking a one-way trip to the vet. Family life can be stressful. Young children are noisy and unpredictable. Friends, young and old, come over and may not always know how to be respectful of a stressed out dog. I quite agree that stressed animals (like stressed people) can manifest behaviour that is quite out of character - but there's "out of character" and then there's aggressive/dangerous.

P
 
Intimidating behaviour is not necessarily aggressive behaviour.

I don't profess to know much about dog training. But quite frankly the dogs reaction was completely over the top. I don't think CM was aggressive, merely assertive. And nothing he did deserved to get him bitten.
 
PolarSkye said:
If either of my dogs behaved like that when stressed they'd be taking a one-way trip to the vet. Family life can be stressful. Young children are noisy and unpredictable. Friends, young and old, come over and may not always know how to be respectful of a stressed out dog. I quite agree that stressed animals (like stressed people) can manifest behaviour that is quite out of character - but there's "out of character" and then there's aggressive/dangerous.

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Stress due to family life massively different to stress by a stranger acting in a quite threatening way.
 
Tizzy said:
By this point the whole food situation had passed and CM was inbetween the dog and the food.
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But the point is, it wasn't over. If someone acted like that to you, would you forget the incident two minutes later, especially if that person was hovering by near you, even if they started talking to someone else? Chances are, you would remain on edge while they were around, perhaps even for a while afterwards. It's nature, it would be a pretty stupid survival instinct to just immediately relax while a threat was right there next to you.
It may not seem rational for the dog to bite someone sitting there ignoring them but the dog is in a state of fear - if CM watched it, he could notice that (like I said - the dog leaning away from him, licking its lips, yawning, purposely avoiding eye contact etc. are all appeasement signs screaming out that the dog is not relaxed - may not be spotted by everyone but a dog behaviourist should be able to recognise these things!) and its reaction caused by that.
Not saying it means the dog is to be trusted around children but it is not what I would call a truly aggressive dog, it did not just bite for the sake of biting. I think many dogs would bite when pushed that far (maybe not in regards to food, but when stressed out to that point) and we have to respect the fact that they are animals that will react to fear, pain, etc.
Would you say that every horse that kicks or bites someone is an aggressive horse? Or would you look at the actions surrounding that behaviour to find a trigger? Would you think..well, maybe the horse is scared when snuck up from behind, or isn't comfortable having its feet handled, or doesn't like the loud noises of a lorry passing by?
I don't see an irrationally aggressive dog in that video, I see one that acts with far more restraint and gives far more clues with its body language than the supposed dog behaviourist does.
 
I honestly don't think that poor dog knew what it was supposed to be doing. My dog isn't aggressive in the slightest, I have taken food and bones off him before (just to see if it was possible, it is so now he gets left well alone!) but I don't think he would be at all comfortable with that. :(
 
krlyr said:
Would you not feel intimidated if someone twice your size approached you like that when you were trying to eat your dinner? Hovered over you until you "submitted"? And then sat down right next to you, and reached out to you again?

Like I said before, saying that the dog bit CM when he was just sitting there is taking the action out of context. We, as humans, can react seemingly irrationally after a frightening event (think of someone screaming when they feel a tickle on their neck, if they've just come out of a garden shed full of spiders, or jumping from fright at every 'bang' they hear after a nasty car accident), the dog has been stressed to its limit (and prior to that, managed to restrain itself enough to not bite) so the hand approaching its face (like I said, many dogs dislike this action anyway - which is why patting a dog on its head isn't recommended) may not have been aggressive itself but the dog was still stressed out and reacted that extremely because of the prior events.
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How I would react if I felt intimidated is, again, irrelevant - I have the power of speech and would choose to either say something like "would you mind giving me a little space please" or (more likely) picking up my dinner and going somewhere else. I am not a dog.

I accept that Holly was stressed . . . and I accept that CM's body language and methods were possibly making her more stressed, but at the point when she actually grabbed his hand and held on he had taken the pressure off - that's what I find so troubling.

What's to stop a toddler inadvertently putting a hand out near a stressed-out Holly and having Holly respond as she did with CM?

I don't particularly want to be drawn into whether CM is a quack or not . . . for me the point is that Holly isn't a suitable family pet and she certainly shouldn't live with young children.

P
 
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PolarSkye said:
How I would feel if I felt intimidated is, again, irrelevant - I have the power of speech and would choose to either say something like "would you mind giving me a little space please" or (more likely) picking up my dinner and going somewhere else. I am not a dog.
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Holly is saying that - in her own language. Like I said, wouldn't expect everyone to know what she was saying but I would expect a dog behaviourist to have a good knowledge of dog body language.
http://petsmiles.com/blog/archives/2046448
In what we can see from the camera angles, I spot at least one yawn, two mouth/nose licks, tons of head turns and her leaning back trying to create distance without moving away (the camera man to her left is possibly preventing her actually moving)

If you kept asking for space and then found this bloke's mate sitting the other side of the table, not allowing you to get up and leave, and then he approached you again, how would you react? Many people may be pushed into defending themselves, be it swinging a punch, a slap, a shove out of the way - I wouldn't call such a person aggressive when it was in self-defence after trying every other method of avoidance.

I too would question her suitability of living with children, because of the unpredictable nature of a child (I think this dog's behaviour was quite predictable but you cannot always monitor or predict the actions of a young child), but I think in an adult/mature teenage household she could certain be managed and trained using alternative methods with no need to "dominate" over her (interestingly studies have shown the dominance heirachy to not even exist in wolves). All CM did is show that a dog pushed to its limits may bite. Maybe the owners needed to see that to realise there was a risk around a child, but any decent behaviourist could tell you that without actually having to 'go there'. Just an unnecessary exercise done for 'exciting' TV.
 
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krlyr said:
But the point is, it wasn't over. If someone acted like that to you, would you forget the incident two minutes later.
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It was over for the dog.

When a dog does something wrong, do you tell it off/scold it there and then so it knows that its behaviour wasnt acceptable with what it had just done. Or do you wait 5 minutes and then tell it off?

A dog would not remember why it was being told off a period after the incident. By then it has forgotten.

CM was not acting aggressivly towards this dog, he was merely asserting his authority. CM/humans are the 'provider' of food.
 
lexiedhb said:
Stress due to family life massively different to stress by a stranger acting in a quite threatening way.
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I actually think Holly would have reacted the same way if a family member had dared to move her food . . . and I don't know about you, but we sometimes have non-family members in the house - strangers to the dogs - some of them not at all dog-savvy.

I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet. Not her fault. Possibly not even her owners' fault. Certainly not CM's fault either.

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