Anyone see CM get bitten by a Lab?

that dog would be on a one way trip to the vets if it were mine. if it had just snapped and left it then that's one thing. i wouldn't want it in my home, and i would not want to pass it on knowing that it may do the same to somebody, somewhere, sometime. :(

personally i would never take a chance with a dog which has nervous issues. i know many people do, and manage to make things work, but it is not something i would be prepared to do.

the snap was a "warning" before the full on bite, but i didn't see it coming and it was a gross over reaction from the dog IMO. i just don't see the point in owning a ticking bomb. i would never trust the dog, and it would pick up on that, along with my feelings of fear- i don't see how that would make for a happy ending. :(
 
That vid really surprised me.

That dog had "Hard case" stamped all over it. The dog was confident, it was assured, it knew what it was doing and was going to do, and I can assure you all, that short of killing the dog on camera, which was not about to happen, the dog was not there to be beaten!! I had a sneaking admiration for it, as I suspect that CM did too!! ;)

The reality is that he pushed his luck with a dog which had never heard of him, or his reputation. ;) I'm CM's fan, generally, but that was rank stupidity, in my view. He pushed the dog, thinking that it would back down, it didn't, it wouldn't, and he paid the price. I had a GSD which was similar to that thing once, and once I'd got the hang of keeping outside his space, we got on fine, but I too had a learning curve.

To CM's credit, he took it without whinging, and without complaint, but that dog taught him a lesson, I hope. Respect to both of them!! :D

For that particular dog, I can't really see an outcome of any value. It didn't have the stand-up aggression, or the weight to back it up, for man work, and never EVER would I allow it to be in the company of small children. Presumably someone's given it a bullet.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
That dog had "Hard case" stamped all over it. The dog was confident, it was assured, it knew what it was doing and was going to do, and I can assure you all, that short of killing the dog on camera, which was not about to happen, the dog was not there to be beaten!! I had a sneaking admiration for it, as I suspect that CM did too!! ;)
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Must have been watching a different video to you then because I did not see confidence in that dog at all.
 
Despite thinking CM has an unfavourable way of dealing with some things (although his ninja-stance during that video amused me a bit :D ) that reaction was still OTT. But then again, had the dog actually ever bitten to such a degree before? Depending on the level of aggression it was actually showing towards it family, I just do not understand why the dog needs to be pushed to its limit, and 'tested' on how it will react to an extreme situation to make a judgement on its behaviour. Perhaps CM was the limit for that dog, its reaction to him and his arm could have been for a number of reasons.
If I know that Ive got a dog that guards its food, though, I dont push it for a reaction and then hang around waiting for it to "submit" to my strange ninja-moves.........
 
ouch.

i personally cannot stand ceaser milan, I think he’s a prize twerp. To me the dog was giving off clear signals and he made matters worse by adopting such a dominant and threatening posture, around a food bowl. A dog like that cannot be ‘fixed’ in a 30 minute TV show. The bite when it came was severe though, it was not a defensive nip, it was a grab and hold on I mean to hurt you type. I wouldn’t be keeping a dog like that although I do feel he made it ten times worse.
 
Why do humans have this obsession with being able to fuddle with a dog`s dinner? In a pack it would starve if it backed off anything that tried to steal it`s grub.My puppies are taught to be stroked and moved around whilst feeding,that is it..I don`t want their food and nor should anyone else.Feed them,leave them alone a while to finish,remove bowl.Yes,if a dog then bowl guards when finished there is a problem,the cure is to ADD a little more food reward to the bowl..so you are actually welcomed near the resource.As for kids..well how about giving them some rules?? Like if the dog is asleep in it`s bed,or chewing a toy,or eating..keep away and leave it in peace.I was taught this..and got a thump and "serves you right" if I was stupid enough to ignore the rules.
My own training methods are old style as CM,but with a bit of VS thrown in on the food reward system,combined it works just fine. No wonder I prefer my puppies to live in an adult or teen kids household.We ask too much of dogs these days.
 
krlyr; The man has no understanding of dog behaviour - pushing the dog and then "dominating" it with stares will not cure its issue said:
Dog's gentler warning signs? Snarling is gentle !! The dog had issues with resource guarding which is not acceptable in any situation let alone if it's around children. CM has a policy that once he engages with a dog that backing down is not an option as it merely empowers the dog more..like with children ;). The dog had not submitted and I think he'd remarked on that to the owner just before the dog bit him. Glad to see he gave it a good kick too.
Really admire him sticking with it as it looked like a bad bite..however Im really surprised he didn't do the usual and use a tennis racquet as he usually does in these type of cases.
Has anyone seen the full program and what happened to it afterwards?
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The dog is clearly dangerous but that's why its owner asked for specialist help. It's no good being a behaviourist for dogs that are perfectly fine or have minor behavioural issues. In this case CM got it totally wrong and made things worse. For me it illustrates exactly the problem with confrontational approaches, that is, they only work out if one of the two parties is willing to back down, otherwise you get a horrible escallation. You are then stuck with having to make a decision about the dog's future in light of the escallation which is not an easy decision to make - I am afraid I would also PTS this dog now.

On the food issue I think it's a very sensible thing to teach all dogs to allow humans to take away their food at any time and under any circumstances. I once had the following little heart stopping moment: one of my dogs was eating a treat, another one tried to take it. The original dog was holding his own with both dogs growling at each other. I was just walking across the room to deal with it, when a friend's young child run into the room, put his hand between the two growling dogs and took the treat. I was so relieved that both dogs packed in the growling and took a step away from the treat as soon as a human was involved. The whole thing happened in seconds and it's the kind of thing you cannot gurantee you will avoid, all you can do is train and hope the training kicks in when you need it.
 
I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it.

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.
 
dollyanna said:
I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it.

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.
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dogs and horses are very different animals a horse in that situation would have gone for flight not fight in my opinion
 
Dobiegirl said:
Its got to be genetic, I wouldnt want a dog like that, she did attack when under no pressure and gave very mixed signals. I dont like his method of dominence though she struck me as a nervy dog.
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What she said ^^

CaveCanem said:
He wasn't up in her face when she bit him, and BIT him and hung on, that was not a warning, she waited until he was no longer threatening, that is what would worry me.
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This too ^^

Don't care what someone was doing standing over her, no way should she be biting. Not a dog that should be in a family.

I love Cesar Milan, wish he'd come and sort out Zak.
 
dollyanna said:
I very rarely participate in these discussions because they just get me riled, but I had to post in support of krlyr. When I watched that video earlier today it took me back to when my dog first arrived - my first dog, a rescue, who also happens to be deaf although that is irrelevant to his behaviour, it is pertinent to how I dealt with it.

He resource guarded to the same degree if not worse than that lab. He would fly across the room to me if I happened to leave food on a worktop and forgot about it. He was just like that lab, including the ending bite when you think it's all over.

He had opportunities to remove himself from me, but didn't know he could take them, because until I had him if he tried to take himself away he was followed to be punished. That lab tried to tell CM to back off at the very start, which was responded to with a jab in the neck. He then backed off but CM followed him. Repeatedly he tries to back away with CM following, including the last attack - when he relaxed CM should have walked well away to relieve the pressure, not just sit and stare at him more. He certainly should have had the sense not to try and stroke his nose.

My boy has never had direct work on his guarding. I dealt with it by management - he was fed in his crate or left to eat in peace. Gradually he started to growl again, which he had learned not to bother with in the past because no-one listened. These days anyone can walk past him and the most he will do is a grumble to remind you he is there and would appreciate the peace and space to eat in comfort. But any sign of discomfort and I backed off, so he could learn to relax with me (and others) around.

It is my responsibilty to keep him safe and happy. So if I have guests who cannot be trusted to behave within his comfort zone then they either don't come in the house or he is put in another room with a toy. Dogs are dogs, and whilst many of them cope remarkably well with living in a human world, many can't cope with all that is expected of them. They speak their language (body language, growls, snarls and eventually snaps and bites if not heard) but get punished for it. Whilst there will always be some animals that have too many issues and can't survive, I doubt this lab is one of them - somebody made him like that by poor handling and poor understanding, and CM really doesn't help the poor dog's impression of humanity. He asks for space, and expresses his discomfort, and he just gets "shouted" at in return.

I am shocked that on a forum which should be full of animal lovers so many are prepared to PTS and not even begin to understand how a dog get to this point, or how easy it can be to turn it around. How often do we get kicked or nipped or bitten by horses, far more powerful and scary animals, but it is rare for the immediate response to be PTS? People expect horses to be full of themselves for the first few years of their lives, yet puppies have to learn not to mouth at all within months. We all know that ears back means horse isn't happy, but they don't get punished for putting ears back - yet dogs get told off for snarling or growling, a perfectly reasonable way of communicating. I don't get it.
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Snarling or growling is massively different from actually ripping you to shreds.

My dogs fit in with people coming into my house - not the other way round.
I have had my dogs grow up with my small children and they are actually very gentle with them even with food.
However, I have also seen first hand reconstructive surgery following on from a dog attack and there is no place for a dog that is this aggressive. A warning snap is very different from actually continuing to savage a human being regardless of the circumstances.
Many children have died from dog maulings and we have a responsibility to our fellow human beings to not have dogs like this in society.

For the record, my dogs are allowed to eat in peace but there have been many times when the children were crawling when they would get in the dog bowl. I would always be there to scoop them away within seconds, but seconds is all it takes to kill a child. Thankfully on these rare occasions, the dogs would just lick the children and wait for me to remove the minor irritation.
 
PolarSkye said:
I accept that Holly was stressed . . . and I accept that CM's body language and methods were possibly making her more stressed, but at the point when she actually grabbed his hand and held on he had taken the pressure off - that's what I find so troubling.
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Agree with this. That dog ain't right.
 
I agree with the leaving them to eat in peace. My dogs are fed seperately and left to get on with it. The children know to leave them and once all finished the bowls are scooped up and put away. I know I wouldn't want someone trying to put their fingers in my dinner or bothering me whilst eating. Does that make me a dangerous person? And yes I would bite.....;)
On a more serious note I think poor dog, she was really telling him to stay the ******* out of my space so why did he push it? I wonder how she was the rest of the time when food wasn't involved? For the record I am a big CM fan but IMO he went wrong here x
 
Whatever the provocation, a dog that reacts like that is not suitable to live in a home with children.

I don't think many people regularly interrupt their dog's eating dinner on purpose but you must be able to- what if you come across your pet dog eating something they have found which is dangerous or toxic?
You need to be able to take things out of their mouth/bowl without being growled at, snapped at or bitten.
 
Ive watched the video again, and actually that bite followed on from snap which CM retreated from..... But he was actually leaning towards her again - which caused the bite. She didnt bite AS he was moving backwards - he was coming back towards her and by then she had exhausted all her other options to get him to back off.

ALL family dogs are more than capable of this behaviour - obviously some are more tolerant than others. Only they arent all provoked to such a degree.
 
I agree. But it comes with other training, I never interrupt my dogs eating but I know for sure, and have done, that I can remove something from them without aggression. (baby hare from patterdales mouth - now that's serious!). They know I'm the boss and what I say goes but they eat in peace. As for the dog, yes very dangerous but what's pushed her to behave in that way? She just looks seriously p****ed off to me.
 
Yes there are times when you need to get something off a dog, but that should be done by teaching them that it is ok for you to take stuff, not by just taking it or forcing them to give it up and assuming they will be ok with it. My dog was at least as bad as Holly, but nowadays if I ask him to hand over his bone he will bring it to my hand. I can ask him to leave and come away from any food. He has a horrendous history, has been damaged by people so much in the past, was starved as a pup, has brain damage from drug use as a pup, but he has been taught that being around food is not a source of stress, he does not need to guard, and it is good to bring me things including food. It is not hard, but it takes time. So many people are just not willing to put the time and effort into teaching these things properly, and taking responsibilty for the dog. Dogs are rarely evil, they are usually scared or damaged by previous handling.

Whilst she may not be suitable to live in a family, it is that family that has contributed to her behaviour and PTS is not taking responsibility in my book. But then I also think that children should be taught to respect dogs the same as they are taught to respect horses - don't run up to horses, don't run behind them, don't run up to dogs, don't put your hand over their head. Leave all animals in peace when eating.

Yes horses are flight and dogs are fight, but they are still a different species to us, and they need to be communicated in ways they understand, or taught ways that we find acceptable.

I would probably be labelled as fluffy bunny, but I strongly object to that. I got hurt by my dog before I started listening to him, I didn't give him back because I felt the damage was done by other people and no-one else would give him a chance, he is a wonderful dog when he isn't stressed. I have turned him around from wanting to attack everything to being an ambassador for deaf dogs, going in the main ring at shows to demo deaf dogs, there is not a lot he hasn't done, but he is a highly intelligent person who finds the human world confusing at times - I don't find that strange. All my work with him has been done using rewards and completely hands off (because he was handshy from being dragged and hit). It is so unnecessary to use force or aggressive tactics to bully dogs. If mine went for me, I would turn away, give him chance to think, then ask him to do something else (usually sit) and reward him for that. Very quickly he learned that sitting was far more profitable so did that instead, and it didn't take long after that before he didn't bother with the reaction because it took longer to get his reward. I just had to stand still and give him time to think and make his choice.

http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/pushed-too-far/
 
dollyanna said:
But then I also think that children should be taught to respect dogs the same as they are taught to respect horses - don't run up to horses, don't run behind them, don't run up to dogs, don't put your hand over their head. Leave all animals in peace when eating.
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It's easy to say but how is a toddling baby to know not to approach or grab at the dog? And I know that both dog and child should be supervised at all times but split-second accidents happen. Being more familiar than I used to be with a two year old whirlwind I can see how damn near impossible it would be to police all child/dog interactions.

I don't think it's too much to expect a certain degree of tolerance in a family dog (and that's tolerance of normal human behaviour, not being allowed to bash the poor sod on the head, steal their food etc.)
 
It isn't too much to expect a degree of tolerance, providing the time has been put in to teach the appropriate behaviour. But this film isn't about a reasonable degree of tolerance, it is about exceptional expectations and exceptional responses, and I firmly believe the dog is not to blame in this situation. If you want to be able to take food from a dog safely then you should invest the time training it - as I have said before mine was at least as bad if not worse than Holly but will now bring me anything he has or picks up, including a marrow bone he has only had a few minutes if need be. The difference is I respect that it is his dinner, and I ask him to bring it, I don't expect him to put up with me just taking it from under his nose. It's not hard to understand, and it's not hard to teach, but it would save a lot of bites and potentially dead misunderstood dogs.
 
So, to the people who have dogs who were much worse than Holly, would you trust your dog around small children/ people who aren't so aware of the intricacies of dog behaviour now they are reformed?

And yes, all dogs are capable of that reaction but it is a bit different when they have gone from capable to actually showing that behaviour.
 
Surely the point is not about their food bowls at home - you need to be able to remove food from ANY dog - what if they find something out on a walk that's poisonous or dangerous? I'm thinking manky dead animals, but also the more serious tampered with food by nasty people (had a situation round here with razor blades, nice...!), or eg a baked beans can they're trying to lick out despite the sharp edges? What if they're trying to eat a dead rabbit in the middle of a road?

I don't usually interrupt Boo when he's eating, but I bloody well need to know I can.

I too would be sending this dog on a one way trip.
 
We adopted a dog with food/resource guarding issues. She was about 9 months old when we got her and in her short life she had probably had to fight for food (she had scars on her face) and had obviously been abused in some way because she was terrified of older men and would growl and raise her hackles when she first saw them.

Tilly also guarded other resources - the sofa, certain people, toys, etc. I worked hard with her . . . taught her to wait for her food, that the sofa was off limits, to "leave" and/or "bring" toys and relinquish them and to trust people. She ate in her crate so that she felt safe. She was a much-loved dog and, when she wasn't being grumbly, was loving and affectionate, especially with my daughters. She also rubbed along with our other (younger) dog, Fred. Tills and Fred were part of our family for three years. One day the girls were walking both dogs and Tilly turned on Fred . . . not just a shouty warning, a full-on attack. A passing man had to pull her off him. About two months later, it was bonfire night . . . Tilly got stressed, Fred got in the way and she went for him again. There was blood everywhere - up the walls, all over the floor, all over both dogs - Fred had to have stitches. From that night on, Tilly couldn't be in the same room with Freddie without attacking him. We tried everything. Behaviourists. Muzzling. Separating them. In the end, my daughters' obvious fear and distress led me to make the sad decision to hand Tilly back to the rescue. There was a small voice in the back of my head whispering that next time it might not be Fred, but a person.

The rescue found her a remote, rural home with very secure fencing (she was a real Houdini dog) as an only dog. She is still there and happy.

My point is that some dogs can not be rehabilitated to live in a family environment, no matter how hard you try. Resource guarding is a serious issue and when one of our current dogs potters over the rainbow bridge and we go to adopt another, I will be asking all sorts of questions about food/resource behaviour.

P
 
lexiedhb said:
Why do people still think that dog aggression will always somehow become human aggression? Two totally different issues.
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An interesting observation. Many years ago, when I was involved with attack dogs, whilst not always the case, almost always, those dogs which were aggressive towards other dogs, were all so often useless for man-work, and vice-versa. Those dogs which were serious with humans, often seemed unable to defend themselves with other dogs. Dogs do fit into stereotypical behaviour patterns, though no two dogs are the same, so that wouldn't be able to take into account, the fruit loops, obviously.

This thread has been a good read!

Alec.
 
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