Anyone see CM get bitten by a Lab?

PolarSkye said:
I'm afraid I'm sticking with my original point which is that Holly's reaction was disproportionate and that she, sadly, isn't terribly suitable as a family pet.
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I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.
 
soggy said:
I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.
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Is that not like saying any dog should put up with absolutely anything humans do to it and never ever react?

This dog's reaction WAS OTT, but she was pushed.
 
I don't think many/any people have said a dog bite is a behaviour to allow around family or strangers, but ultimately any dog could be pushed to bite. This dog, perhaps more easily than others because it has a resource guarding issue, but that issue was known and yet the dog was still pushed.
Yes, I don't think the dog is suitable, in the state shown in the video, to live with children. I don't think that makes it unsuitable to live with adults though, who can use common sense, management and take the time to train the dog using alternative methods to deal with the resource guarding issue, without the unpredictable nature of a child to manage too.
I could probably push my own dogs to bite if I really applied myself and ignored all their warnings, I think we'd be naive to think our dogs would never bite, no matter what, but Holly doesn't need to ever be pushed as far as she was - there was no need to provoke her like that. CM's behaviour is not something that happens accidentally, he went completely over the top with his actions and ignored multiple warnings from the dog that an owner could take heed of before it ever escalated that far.

I've said my piece, and given some of the appallingly cruel responses on here in regards to what they would do to a dog with issues, I'm out.
 
We had a similar situation to Polar Skye. My (now ex) hubby took on a rescue collie, who at 9 months had been in 3 different homes. I wasn't happy about it as we had 2 young children and the dog was very food aggressive. He also would snap if you tried to take him by the collar and remove him from the furniture, or even the room. We persevered for a long time and he did improve but I was never happy with him around the children, who were used to my GSDs who adored them and were always being cuddled. It is quite hard to explain to a 1 year old not to touch dog a but dogs b,c,d and e were fine. When ex left, and didn't take his collie I kept him for a while longer but decided it wasn't fair on either my family or the dog so rehomed him with an older couple , who were aware of all his problems and he lived a long and happy life with them.
ETS. His was a warning snap, never a full on bite liked the lab showed, if he had done that it would have been a one way trip to the vets.
 
Personally that would have gotten taken to the vet for the long sleep.

The next door neighbours dog took a chunk out of my hand when i ws house sitting a few years ago and she refused to put it down despite it having bitten me in my sleep. I woke up with it ripping my hand from side to side in bed and my OH ended up having to throw it down the stairs as it kept coming back once I got it off. I had been there nearly 10days beforehand.

So I now have a no tolerance policy with biting dogs. No excuse for the owners unless its a guard dog and there are signs. Pets should be PTS if they bite other people.
 
lexiedhb said:
Why do people still think that dog aggression will always somehow become human aggression? Two totally different issues.
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I'm assuming this is in response to my story about Tilly?

Tilly's unpredictability and guarding issues were with people and other dogs. She went to bite my OH when he tried to take an empty Dominos dip carton from her - to be fair to her, she did warn him with a growl and a snarl before she put her teeth on his hand . . . but I never got the feeling that she wouldn't bite if provoked . . . and that provocation could be something as simple as physically removing her from the sofa. I don't believe (nor did I say) that all dog aggressive dogs will become human aggressive . . . but I do believe that some dogs are more predisposed to act first and repent later with much shorter fuses - e.g., Tilly.

When we were on holiday in Scotland, she nipped a man who was merely walking past . . . just because he was too close to "her" pack for comfort. I was mortified . . . the man was unhurt but understandably shocked. Tilly had given no warning.

I told my story as an illustration of how unsuitable some resource-guarding dogs are for life in a family/with children. Although she never actually hurt either of them, Tilly's behaviour towards Fred frightened my daughters and, together with everything else we knew about her led us to not entirely trust her. I didn't think she would have bitten either of the girls . . . but I didn't think she'd go for a passing stranger either (and she did just that). Nor was I convinced that she wouldn't snap at a visitor who didn't know where her boundaries were.

I still stand behind my original point - dogs like Holly with resource guarding issues as marked as hers do not make suitable family pets with small children.

P
 
Many years ago my brother and I were messing about and our dog, a rough collie, thought we were fighting and decided to intervene. We were perhaps winding him up..we were teenagers after all. He got between us and nipped my leg..nice pinch with his front teeth. He knew immediately that he'd done wrong before and got the most apologetic look on his face and tail between his legs. that is how family dogs are meant to respond. It was probably the type of nip a good sheep or cattle dog will use but he understood that he shouldn't have done it to his humans. I don't actualLy agree that the answer to hollies problems was PTS. She's a dog and behaved like a dog. She got that way because she knew no better and had not been trained or handled properly. Too many dogs are condemned for the same reason ..spoiled then discarded when their unsociable behaviour becomes a problem. I'm not surprised CM took her in. He seems to have a farm full of ex problem dogs and often swaps them once thry are rehabilitated when he has clients with a dog that is not suitable to their lifestyle.
 
PolarSkye said:
I'm assuming this is in response to my story about Tilly?

Tilly's unpredictability and guarding issues were with people and other dogs. She went to bite my OH when he tried to take an empty Dominos dip carton from her - to be fair to her, she did warn him with a growl and a snarl before she put her teeth on his hand . . . but I never got the feeling that she wouldn't bite if provoked . . . and that provocation could be something as simple as physically removing her from the sofa. I don't believe (nor did I say) that all dog aggressive dogs will become human aggressive . . . but I do believe that some dogs are more predisposed to act first and repent later with much shorter fuses - e.g., Tilly.

When we were on holiday in Scotland, she nipped a man who was merely walking past . . . just because he was too close to "her" pack for comfort. I was mortified . . . the man was unhurt but understandably shocked. Tilly had given no warning.

I told my story as an illustration of how unsuitable some resource-guarding dogs are for life in a family/with children. Although she never actually hurt either of them, Tilly's behaviour towards Fred frightened my daughters and, together with everything else we knew about her led us to not entirely trust her. I didn't think she would have bitten either of the girls . . . but I didn't think she'd go for a passing stranger either (and she did just that). Nor was I convinced that she wouldn't snap at a visitor who didn't know where her boundaries were.

I still stand behind my original point - dogs like Holly with resource guarding issues as marked as hers do not make suitable family pets with small children.

P
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but in your story above (previous post not this one) all you mention is dog dog aggression- hence my comment
 
I agree with the posters who would not persevere with this dog, if it were my dog it would be PTS and we have put to sleep dogs who have never bitten, but have been very much on the runway and it was only a matter of time. Snaps, cornering, growling and pinning a grown man to the floor.

Both clearly unhappy dogs in the head...expecting a dog to live in a constant state of fear or confusion and unhappiness to make oneself feel better that you are 'helping' or 'rehabbing' (not in every case, but some), I think is more cruel.
And I am sorry, but people and particularly children, are more important than dogs. End of.

There are a million stable dogs out there looking for homes who would fit in well to any family environment, I don't see the point in spending time, money and risking potential heartache and physical damage trying to fix a dangerous one. JMO, I can take being called cruel as well as being called clueless.

I sent the video to the trainer I mentioned and as predicted, he said 'always watch the dog' - he said that CM had sat back and was enjoying a bit of self-admiration when the dog, in it's own head, was still feeling challenged.
I've been particularly interested in this debate as we have been applying a bit of pressure to my young dog (ironically, to fix issues created by positive-only training, where he has been allowed to make all the choices and not for the positive) and he has never once reacted in the way that dog did. Not Ninja stylee posing though :p

One thing I will say and I really think it is worth noting....on a food aggression/resource guarding post a few weeks ago, someone popped up and recommended the CM methods - can you see now why blindly offering this kind of advice over the interwebs without seeing or knowing the dog involved and the potential triggers, could be a very dangerous thing?
 
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soggy said:
I agree. We have far to many people making excuses for this dogs behaviour. Regardless of the reason, causes, provocations, missed signals, etc etc. You simply can not allow such aggressive behaviour from any dog that is supposed to be at liberty around family or strangers.

That bitch would be on a one way trip down to the bottom of the field along with a .22 and a spade if it were mine.
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I sincerely hope you are jesting about the .22. Dogs that attack other dogs are so often actually cowards,they get the first punch in. In my breed it is what happens if some numpty allows their mutt to attack mine ..about five weeks later (bull terriers are "slow" !)the dog becomes a fighter..out of fear.The best just turn away from confrontation unless pushed.Attack dogs I have found excellent because they seem to adopt an almost paternal attitude to my bull terriers,which they are here to protect.None of them have ever been dog aggressive.The best guard dogs are bold and quiet,only doing their job if needed,the worst are windy creatures always patrolling and barking to the moon as they go,frightened in fact.A robber in the know can face down that sort.Years ago I boarded a so called guard bitch GSD..that the owner had paid dear for,it barked away in it`s kennel,in the corner,and when I went in it stood emptying it`s bladder.Bloody pathetic.That one would be no where if the chips were down.The owners of that Lab were useless and I am glad she is in Cesers care now,treat dogs like dogs and the world would be a better place.
 
I think he got exactly what he asked for. I'm surprised she didn't bite him sooner.

If his intention was to stop food aggression why did he use her bowl? He should have started with a new bowl which was covered in his scent IMO

This sort of thing is tragic. There's a world of difference between an aggressive dog and one who has clearly NEVER received proper training.
 
The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?

I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter. She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly. First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past. Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!

This man should have no place near any animals,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be
 
Teaselmeg said:
The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?

I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter. She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly. First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past. Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!

This man should have no place near any animals,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be
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have to say i agree with you, i just cant stand him. The continual “shhh” noise too, grr - do we think there has been a spray collar used to get them to react to that noise?

i think these kind of programmes are really dangerous, all you need is someone trying to copy what they have seen on a 5 minute clip and the result could be disasterous.
 
This thread has made me realise how lucky I am that I've never had to deal with aggression from any of my dogs, food related or otherwise. Fair play to those that have, its clearly a very difficult thing to deal with and overcome
 
FestiveBoomBoom said:
This thread has made me realise how lucky I am that I've never had to deal with aggression from any of my dogs, food related or otherwise. Fair play to those that have, its clearly a very difficult thing to deal with and overcome
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I once put my hand down to move a raw knuckle bone my pup was eating, she snarled and tried to bite, it was a natural reaction , not premeditated, all over in a few seconds, I slapped her immediately, she learned not to do it again, but she was not an adult, and was trainable, later on I could take anything away from her by placing my hand on her muzzle and on her head.

This dog had a learned reaction and is now probably too old to train out of it and be certain it would never happen, not a family pet.

The trainer was an idiot, and I thought he was going to lose his goolies, he deserved to!
 
I would put this animal to sleep before it does someone serious damage. Dogs aren't meant to be like that. This dog is a freak. Freaky diggy.
 
You are right: dogs aren't meant to be like this. But the dog is not the 'freak' in this situaton. The freak (jmho) is the so-called 'expert trainer' who seems oblivious to what the dog is telling him, looks at her with a hard unblinking stare which equals - dominance, challenge, in dog language. Then does not communicate in an a clear way and does not seem interested in what the dog is telling him.
 
Burmilla said:
You are right: dogs aren't meant to be like this. But the dog is not the 'freak' in this situaton. The freak (jmho) is the so-called 'expert trainer' who seems oblivious to what the dog is telling him, looks at her with a hard unblinking stare which equals - dominance, challenge, in dog language. Then does not communicate in an a clear way and does not seem interested in what the dog is telling him.
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my understanding of CM's methods is that he intentionally wants to dominate the dog as his belief is that humans should always be the pack leader then the dog leaves the decision to the human thereby creating a dog that is a relaxed and calm follower
 
Let's hope all the MC critics will acknowledge his achievement if the dog is successfully rehabilitated. It might take some time so that'll provide an opportunity to criticise him for something else.
 
FWIW I don't know this man or his methods but he really should know when to ease up on the pressure.

The food had been removed and he reached out to scratch her nose. No big deal you might think, but the atmosphere was still charged and Holly saw a hand coming down across her face:(

I hope she is rehomed. I think he knew she wasn't dangerous, her reaction after the bite was quite pitiful.
 
Teaselmeg said:
The man is a very rich TV entertainer. This just proves his lack of knowledge at a very basic level. Everyone can see the dog is stressed and being pushed into a reaction except him. But then no reaction doesnt make exciting TV programmes does it ?

I feel incredibly sad for the dog, who had a problem that was fixable and is now labelled a biter. She has been failed by her owners and then by CM.

This is a further video he has posted, featuring Holly. First of all check out his dog's ( Junior) incredibly sad reaction to CM at 2.30m, I have no doubt he has done a lot more than shout at him in the past. Also the inconsistent signals he gives Holly, as well as training her around other loose dogs, he plays one minute and yanks her on a slip lead the next. This is after telling off his own dog for playing at feeding time !!! And as for saying that a dog standing with its paws either side of its food bowl is being dominant - good grief !!!


This man should have no place near any animals,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=youtu.be
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I agree. To those who say that the dog gave no signs she was going to bite, Watch the clip again! I find it very worrying that people cant see the signs of fear and stress in this dog.
 
He bloody well deserved it the stupid, ignorant fool! Holly is not an aggressive dog. She was giving off a whole host of calming signals to try and diffuse the situation and avoid any conflict but CM hasn't a clue what he's doing so her attempts at keeping the peace went straight over his head. He pushed and pushed her till she had no choice but to bite him (notice she bit the hand he jabbed her in the neck with). He took her back to his 'rehab' centre where he will have bullied and intimidated her until she could cope no longer, went into complete shutdown and became a terrified robot like the rest of his poor dogs.
The man is nothing more than a dog abuser!
 
blackcob said:
It's easy to say but how is a toddling baby to know not to approach or grab at the dog? And I know that both dog and child should be supervised at all times but split-second accidents happen. Being more familiar than I used to be with a two year old whirlwind I can see how damn near impossible it would be to police all child/dog interactions.

I don't think it's too much to expect a certain degree of tolerance in a family dog (and that's tolerance of normal human behaviour, not being allowed to bash the poor sod on the head, steal their food etc.)
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I got my first dog at a year old. I have pics of me laying on him, dressing him up, sharing food... Family dogs need to put up with a lot. He never once snapped at me, though he did once pinch a kit kat from me.
 
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