Anyone seen the recent Lucinda Green video with Tom McEwan on FB?

All of Laura’s horses are sharp as sh*t.
Not that I’m making excuses for her if the horse is in pain. The video shows an extreme reaction that I would want investigated.
She is renowned for being able to ride sharp difficult horses. At home I wonder what lifestyle they have?
A friend worked for her (it didn’t end well) and from memory she said they were all pretty pumped up on hard feed.
 
LC seems to have her hands fixed on his withers as he takes off so is that why the head chuck? No idea and I haven’t jumped seriously for many many years. It just caught my eyes.
 
humblepie said:
LC seems to have her hands fixed on his withers as he takes off so is that why the head chuck? No idea and I haven’t jumped seriously for many many years. It just caught my eyes.
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I thought that

If its because he's hot , why not work through that til he can carry his head on a longer neck and allow him lengthen as he jumps instead if strangling him
 
Ceifer said:
All of Laura’s horses are sharp as sh*t.
Not that I’m making excuses for her if the horse is in pain. The video shows an extreme reaction that I would want investigated.
She is renowned for being able to ride sharp difficult horses. At home I wonder what lifestyle they have?
A friend worked for her (it didn’t end well) and from memory she said they were all pretty pumped up on hard feed.
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This is kind of what I mean. It's like the sticky dealer kids who are proud of being able to stay on anything. It doesn't say much for their horsemanship. There's no need for event horses (even today) to be as you describe. The rider I worked for (in long format days) fed a forage-based diet and turned out and all the horses were dopes on ropes, even the babies. That didn't stop her winning at the highest level for many years.
 
Well, I'm going to go against the grain here, and I do admit I have NO where near the experience of some other posters on here. I also want to say I'm not defending LC out of fandom - I do admire some aspects of her riding, but she's not my favourite.

I see a horse who is jumping forward, takes off nicely and makes a decent shape. On landing, there aren't many strides to the fence. Laura does not pull him up with her hands, but she does keep him straight. He seems to be wanting to p*** off on landing but can't because he knows he has to turn or stop once he gets to the arena fence. Hense the bunny hopping, which can be preparation for either rapid acceleration or deceleration. When he's stood, he's jiggering around with his head, but that seems more impatience. LC's hands don't move, and when he realxes and stands quietly, there is a good length of rein there for him.
 
Burnttoast said:
This is kind of what I mean. It's like the sticky dealer kids who are proud of being able to stay on anything. It doesn't say much for their horsemanship. There's no need for event horses (even today) to be as you describe. The rider I worked for (in long format days) fed a forage-based diet and turned out and all the horses were dopes on ropes, even the babies. That didn't stop her winning at the highest level for many years.
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I’ve also worked for people like that and it is a much happier environment for all concerned. Horses and humans.
As a groom I really hated the real concern that I was going to get my head kicked in by a horse that hadn’t been turned out for months and was wired on feed. They weren’t nice horses and then weirdly conditioned as on the rare occasions they did go out they wanted to come back in!
I’ve seen LC ride at a demo and she rode a young horse beautifully so it isn’t the full picture.

Edited to say the person who didn’t do turn out was a young rider who had rich parents and no real guidance. They had rider training from some of the best people in the world but the horse management was severely lacking and that is something that is becoming more prevalent.
 
TheMule said:
Objectively, the horse is behaving pretty much the same as Tom’s horse- landing disunited/ both hinds down together.
That big kick back and the grunting after the fence bug me.
But perhaps the narrative of her saying it’s because he’s excited probably makes people view it differently
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I don't think the physical behaviour and expressions of the two horses are similar at all. Unless I'm looking at the wrong video - over jumps in the video I saw following your link the horse changes late behind in the strides following the fence, with it's general physical behaviour over and after the fence being what I would describe as erratic, which could well be discomfort and/or stress. Tom's horse on the other hand is adjusting itself over a fence to land in a specific, awkward way every time. It's classic pain avoidance (to my eyes).

If LC's horse were mine I would certainly be questioning the way of going in the video, whereas Tom's horse I would have got off immediately and handed over to the vet.

I'm no fan of LC, and have seen a lot of jump training videos from her that trouble me, but these are my thoughts on the strict comparison between this video and the Tom video on this thread.
 
TheMule said:
Objectively, the horse is behaving pretty much the same as Tom’s horse- landing disunited/ both hinds down together.
That big kick back and the grunting after the fence bug me.
But perhaps the narrative of her saying it’s because he’s excited probably makes people view it differently
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I watched it with the sound off the first time and winced. I think its even worse when you hear the grunting.
 
Ceifer said:
All of Laura’s horses are sharp as sh*t.
Not that I’m making excuses for her if the horse is in pain. The video shows an extreme reaction that I would want investigated.
She is renowned for being able to ride sharp difficult horses. At home I wonder what lifestyle they have?
A friend worked for her (it didn’t end well) and from memory she said they were all pretty pumped up on hard feed.
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And thats the other feasible option. Pumped with food, no turnout and just OTT because of that.
 
What I can't understand with LC's jumping videos (at home).... and it might jst be because I only ever seem to see the ones where it's 'first jump of the year' is that it all just looks so erractic, out of control and dangerous. I don't understand what it achieves apart from loads of views on socials and her reminding everyone about her ability to stay on. The jumps are always massive... which is weird seen as it's 'first jump of the year' and just seems to be a bit of a pointless exercise. LC's seat is fantastic and she is so so brave, but I'd rather see relaxed horses jumping round looking like they're listening to their rider rather than just tanking off.

We know that you can't put pressure on tension, and that horses are not truly focused and learning unless they're relaxed, so why isn't relaxation the key objective to the beginning of every training session? You can build power, forwardness and adjustability from a relaxed, fit horse, but power and forwardness will only get you in trouble if there's no adjustability and the horse isn't relaxed, listening and learning the exercise.

I've actually just watched LC's Lucinda video (without sound) and I don't see an issue with it, yes the horse puts it's head up a bit on landing but as someone said above, looks like they're using the fenceline to help steady the horse post-fence but it is listening to her and it doesn't look frantic.... probably retraining from her bombing them over fences at home down the long side and spending the next four strides in the air!
 
DabDab said:
I don't think the physical behaviour and expressions of the two horses are similar at all. Unless I'm looking at the wrong video - over jumps in the video I saw following your link the horse changes late behind in the strides following the fence, with it's general physical behaviour over and after the fence being what I would describe as erratic, which could well be discomfort and/or stress. Tom's horse on the other hand is adjusting itself over a fence to land in a specific, awkward way every time. It's classic pain avoidance (to my eyes).

If LC's horse were mine I would certainly be questioning the way of going in the video, whereas Tom's horse I would have got off immediately and handed over to the vet.

I'm no fan of LC, and have seen a lot of jump training videos from her that trouble me, but these are my thoughts on the strict comparison between this video and the Tom video on this thread.
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I'd agree with this^^
 
Tom’s horse lands normally on its first jump but it has knocked the filler down ( probably quite noisy) and I think most of what you see after that is a response to the scare it got from that. It is an uber-careful horse that I would guess doesn’t like to make a mistake. He actually lands true, just wanting to favor the right lead.
Laura's horse lands disunited or both hind legs down together each time- that is much more of a red flag to me of physical issues, especially if you add in the kick back and the grunting.

Anyway, I am generally of the opinion that both horses are actually absolutely fine and that, if they aren’t, they will have the full veterinary support they need to be fine.
 
TheMule said:
Tom’s horse lands normally on its first jump but it has knocked the filler down ( probably quite noisy) and I think most of what you see after that is a response to the scare it got from that. It is an uber-careful horse that I would guess doesn’t like to make a mistake. He actually lands true, just wanting to favor the right lead.
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It approaches on a left curve, on left lead, Tom asks for left lead to be held on landing to continue curving leftwards away from the jump, and the horse stays left lead in front but switches to land it's hind down.

I've never seen nor been on a horse that has responded that way to knocking a fence, particularly not one that is as experienced as this horse, no matter how sensitive.

It was also visibly lame in walk towards the end of the clip.

I'm struggling to follow your line of reasoning on Laura's horse - your concerned but also not concerned and think the horse is fine...? My, I guess ambivalence, to the LC video is that there are so many clips out there where her horses are going in the way this one is - landing all over the show, scooting, bucking, head tossing, grunting - I don't know why she puts these clips up, but I suspect there is something in the way they are bred/kept/ridden that makes them tend to display this stuff. Whereas Tom and his rides are usually the very image of composure.
 
I have no idea whether either or both horses are fine or not. Watching Tom's horse made me think 'that does not look right'. Watching LC's did not elicit the same response but I actually can't say why and I am fully aware that I don't know how fresh 5* horses generally behave on their first jump of the year. BUT I still think it's a missed opportunity to talk about pain related evasions, even if to say 'that always needs checking, and we have, and in this case it's ...." The advice will be applied by any Tom, Dick or Harry without oversight. It's irresponsible to show videos of horses ducking sideways, throwing their heads about and and disuniting and going immediately for a 'play', excitement', 'habit' explanation.
 
I can’t tell whether LC’s horse is sound or not from that clip. It’s hyped up, buzzy and tense as heck, and she’s riding with the handbrake firmly on to stop it tanking off with her.

Not pretty to watch and not a happy looking horse at all. Whether the horse would be happier with a rider that wasn’t reeling it in so much is a moot point.

Never owned any pink wellies, but I’m not much younger than Lucinda Green and have been volunteering on and off at horse trials (as they were known) for the last 55 years. Initially aged about 12 as assistant in the start box to my mum who was a starter/timekeeper back in the Midland Bank sponsorship days, and more latterly as a BE FJ and dressage scriber.
 
Extra/follow on Laura vid I think?

www.facebook.com

10K views · 219 reactions | This clip is a brilliant example of how Laura Collett uses her body language to communicate before she even reaches the fence. She isn't just steering. She is signaling. If you slow the video down and watch the horse’s e

This clip is a brilliant example of how Laura Collett uses her body language to communicate before she even reaches the fence. She isn't just steering. She is signaling. If you slow the video down...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
 
To clarify my earlier comment - the behaviours in both videos raise reg flags to me as there being a strong likelihood of the behaviours being pain-related.

Applying the Sue Dyson pain ethogram would give results that support this concern.

Nobody has concluded anything catagorically from short clips of video, but those of us who have raised concerns about the potential for pain have done so as a result of what is shown in the videos.

I'm not sure why this is turning into a debate about whether you can tell if a horse is in pain or not from a video. The discussion seems to be going backwards in some ways.
 
TheMule said:
Tom’s horse lands normally on its first jump but it has knocked the filler down ( probably quite noisy) and I think most of what you see after that is a response to the scare it got from that. It is an uber-careful horse that I would guess doesn’t like to make a mistake. He actually lands true, just wanting to favor the right lead.
Laura's horse lands disunited or both hind legs down together each time- that is much more of a red flag to me of physical issues, especially if you add in the kick back and the grunting.

Anyway, I am generally of the opinion that both horses are actually absolutely fine and that, if they aren’t, they will have the full veterinary support they need to be fine.
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Were you expecting the response LC video to be better/different as she explained he was fresh/something?? Slightly patronising

Toms horse does look more unhappy 🤷‍♀️ I'm not really sure what either of these videos are trying to achieve re general training for the riders that will see it on facebook, surely eyes on the ground would be best for these behaviours
 
ramsaybailey said:
Were you expecting the response LC video to be better/different as she explained he was fresh/something?? Slightly patronising

Toms horse does look more unhappy 🤷‍♀️ I'm not really sure what either of these videos are trying to achieve re general training for the riders that will see it on facebook, surely eyes on the ground would be best for these behaviours
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No. I was genuinely interested in what people thought of the LC video as it had just been released and no one on here had referenced it here yet
 
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