Anyone understand herd dynamics...bullying Shetland...?

[catembi]

Trev (ex-racer) and Florence (Shetland) used to live together at my old house. She arrived at 6 months old, latched onto him & all was well. Sold that house, had a v protracted purchase, Trev was in retirement livery while the whole nightmare played out, & eventually there was an established herd here of Cody (quarter horse), Tiffany (NF) and Florence, with the pecking order very firmly in that order. Then I got Trev back. Cody seems to quite like him, grooms him, doesn't chase him. Tiffany doesn't seem fussed either way. Florence is being really, really horrible to him, kicking him & chasing him off the hay. (I put out extra so that he doesn't go without.) She squeals at him in rage & tries to double barrel him. I'm not really understanding why as they lived together for ages, she loved him & was v v pleased to see him again. Mares are 4 years old, Cody is 6, Trev is 15. Florence is being a complete witch. However, Cody only has to look at her and she runs, and Tiffany has no trouble shooing her away.

I only have two stables (ongoing planning issue) which are permanently accessible with hay, but Trev has to stay outside by himself as she is being such a cowbag. The other 3 will share fairly nicely, with Cody shooing them if he's had enough of them.

I am thinking of getting a pony shelter & shutting Florence in overnight so she can't attack him. Don't want to spend too much as I am hoping I might get planning for my proper stable block soon. Is this the best solution? And why is she being so awful to her former friend? It's quite upsetting tbh.

 

[shortstuff99]

Where does Trev sit in the pecking order? If he is at the bottom too then they may be just trying to sort out where they each fit. I imagine it will settle down once they get positions sorted.

 

[catembi]

I think he’s at the bottom, but how can he be below a Shetland and a NF? I hope it settles as I hate to see him being bullied 😥

 

[dree]

How much space is Trev giving Florence? Given that they were great pals, and Trev adored Florence, maybe he is not giving her the space she needs/wants? As they were initially introduced as just a pair, the whole dynamics have obviously changed. You don't say how long they were apart? You have, quite literally, a different herd of horses now, but Trev will remember Florence. I would give it time. You can't sort it out for them. How much respect does the Shetland have for you? If you were in there when they were eating would she barge past you to get to him?

 

[dree]

The dynamics between a small (older) pony and a younger horse. Could be what's going on? We see it as bullying, but really it's.....do what you're told. We all have to get along here.

 

[Lois Lame]

I enjoyed that bit of footage, dree. Who was the dude? I liked him.

 

[meleeka]

I find herd dynamics fascinating. I’m guessing it’s to do with pecking order and she’s already lost her rank of alpha mare so she doesn’t want to slip any further down. She’s probably not too happy having other mares above her, especially if one has claimed Trev (great name btw😀). I do find a group of mares very complicated (a bit like a group of females!)

I’m not sure of a solution but I think for everyone’s peace it might be an idea to fence her off/stable her where she can still see the others for some of the time. Of course that risks making her feel even more put out but you could always try it If it doesn’t settle.

 

[pippixox]

how long have they all been together?
I also find herd dynamics facisnating and they also change over time.
I have a very dominant mare, but she is so clearly the boss she just has to look at the others! ideal to keep the younger ones in check. my gelding is also quite dominant and likes to protect 'his girls'. one girl is nearly 20 like him, but there are now a 8 year old welsh a mare and a nearly 2 big mare (his favourite), along with a sec a gelding. then a mini shetland returned to the mix! my gelding used to love him when they were a pair (he was company when my gelding was on box rest) but now he is a threat to his ladies he has been horrible to him. however, in the space of a few weeks (a few days of which my friend moved the shetland to other side of the fence as they were all being so horrible to him), it has all settled down.

the sec A mare in the herd is quite reactive out in the field and I think feels quite insecure. Out at shows they have to be careful encase she kicks. But there is no way she can currently go up the pecking order as the two older mares are well established! I think the 'insecure' ones of the group are always more likely to pick on a new comer (or returner) to assert some dominance, as they feel more threatened. little ones can have 'little man syndrome' in my opinion!

 

[milliepops]

Trev hasn't been back long, has he? If you can bear it, I would leave them to it for a bit longer. My field kept horses have an interesting herd dynamic. I took the boss mare away for a fortnight a while back and she lost her place in the pecking order, well and truly. She was rather sad for about a month but it's all reset again now 6 weeks on. I think it sometimes just takes a while for them to reach a stable position.

 

[catembi]

To answer questions...Trev doesn’t go into her space. He hangs back and avoids her. She goes into his space specifically to squeal at him and kick him 😥

They were together a week, then Trev got choke and complications and went to the vets for 8 or 9 days (running up a bill of nearly £5k...🤔) and now they are on their 3rd day back together.

Interesting idea re Florence losing her place. She used to outrank Tiffany but about 6-9 months ago, this reversed. When it was just her and Trev, they were kind of equal but she would try and share his food and he would give up trying to chase her off.

Cody seems to be benevolent towards him. He comes over to see what he’s doing and then wanders off again, ears staying forward.

I think it’s upsetting me seeing Trev on the edge of the group because he’s a nice old boy and deserves better than being hounded by a naughty Shetland!

 

[catembi]

Interesting this morning...3 of them by the gate...no sign of Trev. I have specifically left one field open so he can get away, but he wasn’t in it. I was just thinking that they might have chased him through a fence when I found him in a stable eating hay! I fed him in the stable with the door shut so he was safe and cowbag Shetland was trying to bite him over the door and turned her quarters towards the door!

Oh well, I shall have to see how this plays out. Luckily they are all barefoot...

 

[be positive]

I think it is because he has come into 'her' field/ herd rather than as before when she joined him, she is trying, and succeeding, to keep her place in the established group, I would be inclined to remove her for a few days completely, let the others become a unit and then put her back in, if he has not been too worried by her he should be back ahead of her and remain that way.
Herd dynamics are fascinating and do at times require intervention to help a new one settle in.

 

[Lammy]

I would say it usually takes a lot longer than 3 days for a herd to settle. The herd my boy went into, him and the other low ranking gelding took a few weeks to sort out where they are on the ladder. Completely settled now.

 

[dree]

I enjoyed that bit of footage, dree. Who was the dude? I liked him.

It's Rick Gore. If you type in "Think Like a Horse" into You Tube, you'll get all his videos. He can be really funny, but he knows his stuff. I've been watching quite a lot of his stuff lately.

 

[dree]

I think it is because he has come into 'her' field/ herd rather than as before when she joined him, she is trying, and succeeding, to keep her place in the established group, I would be inclined to remove her for a few days completely, let the others become a unit and then put her back in, if he has not been too worried by her he should be back ahead of her and remain that way.
Herd dynamics are fascinating and do at times require intervention to help a new one settle in.

But then when you put her back in, the herd dynamics change again? They've only been together a few days. I'd give it a little bit time personally.....but I'm not there. It does look awful, but horses are horses and we can be inclined to feel sorry for a horse that we don't need to feel sorry for at all.

 

[be positive]

But then when you put her back in, the herd dynamics change again? They've only been together a few days. I'd give it a little bit time personally.....but I'm not there. It does look awful, but horses are horses and we can be inclined to feel sorry for a horse that we don't need to feel sorry for at all.

Not if the big horse gets properly established, this is why most livery yards should do gradual introductions, the odd one will become very protective of their field or companions and the new arrival may get pushed out, if the tricky one is removed the rest usually get themselves sorted and the new one does not get pushed back out.

I have seen a pony attack another when the new one went into his field, I had to remove him because he was being seriously kicked and cornered and being older just could not get away, a few weeks later I put the troublesome one in the field with the older one, so troublesome boy going into a different field, and there was no problem, no fighting and they settled down immediately, it does not always work but it is worth a try.

 

[dree]

I don't know if this vides helps or not. If not.....well, no harm done.

Btw, when your Shetland turned her quarters towards the door, where were you and what did you do?

 

[indie1282]

I would get rid of the Shetland!

 

[honetpot]

Dominance has nothing to do with size, my 16.2 IDx is dominated by his 14hand companion, but as he is only three I expect this to change as he becomes more mentally mature.
Mares are the worst, and geldings fit around them, one of my mares could reverse kicking out faster than most ponies could trot forwards.
I find even numbers work best, and if you have an odd number take the dominant one out to make the pair in a separate paddock. That immediately ups the new horses status when they go back together, and the dominant horse will herd their friend from trouble.
The temptation is to put a less dominant animal, which gives them no status.
My favourite nanny is a section A, who teaches them manners and then when they grow up has no interest in them, and no horse ever gets attached to him.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I think it is because he has come into 'her' field/ herd rather than as before when she joined him, she is trying, and succeeding, to keep her place in the established group, I would be inclined to remove her for a few days completely, let the others become a unit and then put her back in, if he has not been too worried by her he should be back ahead of her and remain that way.
Herd dynamics are fascinating and do at times require intervention to help a new one settle in.

I like this idea.
I'm also fascinated by herd dynamics, I had two in together and neither really wanted to be top dog, they both had such similar personalities. They're actually happier now they have someone bossing them around a bit. It must be quite stressful being herd leader!

 

[be positive]

I like this idea.
I'm also fascinated by herd dynamics, I had two in together and neither really wanted to be top dog, they both had such similar personalities. They're actually happier now they have someone bossing them around a bit. It must be quite stressful being herd leader!

I have one horse who is the leader but when put in with another big horse who was a complete follower mine became unsettled, my take was he was not resting because the follower never took charge, a swap around to having a pony that was self confident in with mine and all went back to normal, he is still the boss but not responsible 100% of the time and can rest when he needs to.

 

[catembi]

Thank you everyone for your input.

I think we have had some progress today. Trev has had a roll, hopefully meaning that he's feeling more secure, I saw him & Tiffany trying to groom each other (she is 12 hh; he is 16.1...) and he is now hanging around the stables trying to work out how to get to the hay but no-one is actively chasing him.

To the person who asked...I was on the outside of the door when Florence turned her quarters towards it. I stepped out of the way, not wanting to get kicked, and then made myself big a la Richard Maxwell & made her walk off.

 

[indie1282]

Thank you everyone for your input.

I think we have had some progress today. Trev has had a roll, hopefully meaning that he's feeling more secure, I saw him & Tiffany trying to groom each other (she is 12 hh; he is 16.1...) and he is now hanging around the stables trying to work out how to get to the hay but no-one is actively chasing him.

To the person who asked...I was on the outside of the door when Florence turned her quarters towards it. I stepped out of the way, not wanting to get kicked, and then made myself big a la Richard Maxwell & made her walk off.

Can you not put hay outside the stables so he's able to eat? I dont think I would want 4 horses trying to fit in to two stables to eat hay.

 

[catembi]

Yes, I put another net outside yesterday.

 

[OdinsMum]

My Fell pony is field boss in a heard of 15.2+ size horses. My cob is in the same field but is middle ranking order I think this will change as he matures though