AP & HG's big day out to the Equine Fertility Unit...

AndyPandy

AndyPandy

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HG & I went to the "closing down sale" of the Equine Fertility Unit at Newmarket yesterday. We had a fantastic day, and came away with some great bits of equipment. We met Twink Allen... had a good look around etc.

It was really sad to see such a fantastic establishment being closed down. They've done some fantastic work over the years...it has achieved much useful research and many "firsts" over the last 37 years, with among other things identification of the "capsule" that surrounds the early conceptus; the significance of prostaglandins in producing estrus; early pregnancy recognition ("maternal recognition"); function of the equine placenta; the equine genome; and much more.

I believe that it's phenomenally short sighted of the Thoroughbred Breeders Association to withdraw funding from the unit. We've lost a world class breeding laboratory because the TB establishment were not willing to put aside £4.5Million over the next 10 years! That amount, spread over 10 years is a very small amount for the quantity and quality of the research that was being undertaken there. This is a major blow to the worldwide equine community, and we have the TBA and the rest of the TB establishment to thank for the loss of the EFU.

Any thoughts?
 
Seems pretty much in line with the article in last week's H&H about how shortsighted and outdated the TB breeding industry is regarding AI. It made lots of sense and there seems such a gulf between breeding TB's and breeding any other kind of horse. (though I am no expert)
 
Glad you had a great day out
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very sad day in other ways, i really do think it is a shame and a great loss to anyone concerned with breeding which ever method they use
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I'm going to quote myself here from a previous posting:

I think the TB governing bodies in this country get a lot of stick on this issue, when one country alone can't really turn it around. I think I saw an earlier post pouring scorn on Weatherbys and reviling the TBA, and much as I'd like to be able to use A.I. (and all the rest) on TBs, I felt it was rather unfair that the a group of private individuals like the TBA should be blamed for ceasing to fund something that was ever more deeply involved in projects that really benefitted sportshorse rather than TB breeders. It is indeed a shame that the various studbooks couldn't have joined forces for once, levied their members and funded this centre.

I once quizzed the people at Weatherbys on this issue, as I had a TB mare who needed more help to produce a foal than the regulations permitted; they were so helpful and reasonable, and didn't have any issues with A.I.- but of course they only administer the Stud Book; they don't set the rules. The impression I got was that it was the sheer size of the TB industry and the inertia to be overcome in changing the direction of something international, that was the problem. After all, it would be financial suicide for one country to go it alone, if the others didn't immediatly follow suit. All that year's foals would be unsaleable & unraceable abroad, that year & possibly for ever, if the other countries didn't choose to make the same move. I don't think such a move can come from us; it would have to come from, I think, from America, which is big enough to dictate its own terms; only, small as we are, we need it more.

Quote over- but I'd go on to say that the rants against the TB industry rather irritate me; my amazement is that the TBA members were funding much of this research at all, given that they are who they are & do what they do- where was the sportshorse (showjumping / dressage / eventing ) not to mention endurance, polo, showing fraternities' imput? Shortsighted? Who was short-sighted?
 
I had a great time, i got to bid on all the lots and AP had to pay for the ones we won (best of both worlds for me I got to shop and not pay for it.......a girls dream that
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)! It was very interesting to see who was there, we were bidding against a few of the biggest repro centres in the country and we bought lots of great equipment for APs brand new mobile lab
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Also I haven't laughed soooooo much in ages, especially about just how much stuff you can squeeze into a Grand Vitara!!!!!!
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Twink Allen was very nice and I felt really sorry for him, watching all his work be sold off!!
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Tho he did critise my parking abilities when we were loading the car (you can go off some people very quickly
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I know its fantastic, I have seen APs new van and all his plans and I am very impressed, he will be travelling all over the country to studs to collect and freeze semen, the lab is also going to be fully equiped to deal with ai and embryo transfer the lot! I am very excited!!
 
How very sad I visited in it's hay day when Twink was mapping the genome. Twink is a very charismatic and enthusiastic man not at all like the average scientist. He was willing to spread knowledge freely and was concerned with the welfare of his subjects too. I am sure he will be a huge loss to British breeding along with the centre. I am a huge fan and will miss his advances in breeding science, I for one can’t read Italian, though I know someone who can!

I am glad to hear that the equipment is going to a good use for the average breeder and not disapearing into research or huge establishments.

Does anyone know what happened to the horses?

It will be interesting to see just how much the site sells for won't it? I wonder how much that influenced the recent decision. What angered me was the lack of consultation with members in making a key decision.

In some ways I do agree that some of the other branches of British breeding should have stepped in to help the centre but that said the TBA lost sight of all the excellent work Twink was doing for them and gathering extra funding by doing the more high tech stuff for more advanced thinking breeds/types.

I do not think anyone is slating the Thoroughbred breeders but simply asking a question that is on every ones lips Why on Earth Not?

I would like to see AI at the very least introduced ASAP no 1 for the welfare of the horses and the restriction of the spread of serious infectious diseases. It would not take much for them to at least start discussions and there is already an international pedigree body in place through which to do so, so the argument that I won‘t do it till they do does not stand up to much scrutiny. After all they all managed to jointly embrace DNA parentage testing and blood typing before. I suspect that it will not be long before a huge outbreak of something infectious will spread round the world (Like the flu or worse), then the penny will well and truly drop.

I think that the opposition to AI is far more ingrained than simply one country won't do it before another. I suspect that it is the old school that remain entrenched in their pre 1940's view that the act of copulation creates a better horse. I cannot see that the large stallion stations around the world would object in any way since it would probably enhance the breeding lifespan of their stallions no end and save them a lot of travelling. Like I have said before it is ludicrous from a welfare and financial point of view to fly millions worth of bloodstock around the world and worse to deliberately foster foals to assist this.

The argument I have always heard from racings establishment does not touch on Weatherby’s statement, but is that AI would narrow the gene pool. This is easily ratified and I think totally unfounded for it would allow breeders more choice of alternate lines around the world.

Since there are already some bendable rules around insemination in TB's it's not a huge step. If they do now choose to go the AI route they have lost valuable ground by closing our best and most established research facility.
 
I can't believe that anyone complained about horsegroupies driving, her navigating skills leave a lot to be desired and you could end up down a road that is closed but her driving , well slow but sure!!!!
Slow after you have driven 80 miles with my mad daughter. By the way she hasn't ridden since and has been in bed just getting out to be sick [preggie] and has a show on Tuesday.Oh dear
 
Why the hell should the racing industry pay?
Those funds come from anyone who is involved in the sport, yet you fully expect for us to pay for something that benefits everyone. We pay for nearly every bit of useful research out there, and can't be expected to do so for everything.
As for AI etc, wrong, wrong wrong. Natural selection happens for a reason.
 
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Why the hell should the racing industry pay?
Those funds come from anyone who is involved in the sport, yet you fully expect for us to pay for something that benefits everyone. We pay for nearly every bit of useful research out there, and can't be expected to do so for everything.
As for AI etc, wrong, wrong wrong. Natural selection happens for a reason.

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Er - sorry - don't understand your last comment. There is no 'natural selection' in TB breeding (or indeed any other horse-breeding) - humans do the 'selecting'! Whether the humans in question are using AI or some other method is totally irrelevant - it is they who choose the breedings, not 'nature'!
 
oh - you mean the 'natural selection' when a lame racehorse is retired to stud to sire more poor physical specimens out of mares that themselves are poor conformation specimens ???

don't knock AI - it is horses for courses - and had it been legal for TBs there wouldn't be a load of transglobalwarming shipping of horses to and from Australia e.g. for the covering season - and stuck there 'cos of equine flu - only their semen would have needed to travel....

of course that semen could still have been from the aforementioned lame/unsound stallion.
 
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Why the hell should the racing industry pay? etc

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The racing or more correctly the TB breeding industry has benefitted left right and centre from the work of the EFU over the years and infertile individuals are now bred from that would have been in a can or chasing hounds 30 years ago. The AI etc naturally stemmed from that reseach and paid its way, thats how Twink Allen made extra funds to benefit the TB industry.

How do you think one stallion can cover over 200 mares in a season when 20 or 30 was the old norm? Also how do you think many over bred from mares can still conceive and carry to term?

Yes thats right there is nothing Natural about injecting, rugging and giving artificial light to mares to enable conception at a time of year when nature would not allow it. Giving birth to a foal in the dead of winter, scanning and covering them once in a season, hobbled , twitched, worried about her foal and teased by a 12hh pony stallion then covered by a screaming stanger is not my idea of natural. Since man interveined in the selection process there is no natural.

But worse in years gone by a mare only travelled as far as she could walk now she is forced to travel distances either with a young foal, heavily pregnant and give birth in a strange place with strange horses carrying who knows what. No wonder disease spreads. Worse case she travells without her foal who has been given to a foster mare who's own foal is often disposed of.

The unnatural alternative? she is allowed to birth and bring up her own foal in a familiar place and spend a few sessions in a stock, no risk of injury or unnecessary exposure to disease to her or her foal. I think I'll take AI over "TB Natural" thanks.
 
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By natural selection I mean that those that can't conceive, don't.

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Here's a nice definition of "natural selection":
Natural selection is the process by which favorable traits that are heritable become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable traits that are heritable become less common. Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, such that individuals with favorable phenotypes are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with less favorable phenotypes.

Now, some animals may be born infertile, or subfertile due to a particular set of genes related to fertility. These genes are not related (or are very unlikely to be related) to other aspects of the animal, like its conformation, performance etc. (unless it's a serious androgen-related problem, in which case the horse is unlikely to ever do well). My point is, just because a horse is subfertile, it doesn't mean it does not have a useful set of genes. So why shouldn't we use technology to enable it to breed?

At any rate, AI is not really about enabling subfertile horses to breed. It is about safety for the animals, disease control, and widening the gene pool by allowing distant or "busy" stallions to cover mares.

Other, more advanced techniques may allow infertile animals to breed, but again, this really isn't the point.

As mentioned above, the TB industry, and the sheer number and value of TB foalings in the UK each year, and the resulting financial gain for the TB industry as a whole, far outweighs the number of foalings, and the relative value of the other equestrian sports (Dressage, SJ, eventing etc.). The EFU's work was much more about post-conception issues, which are all relevant to TBs.

There's no point ranting about AI being the root of all evil if you can't back it up. The backward thinking, recalcitrant, old school TB'ers will listen to you all day, but those of us who are more forward thinking, and enjoy discussion are less likely to pay attention to your statements.
 
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I am allowed an opinion, just as everyone else.

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Yes indeed and thats what people are doing is expressing their opinions just as you did and when you make a comment like...

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As for AI etc, wrong, wrong wrong. Natural selection happens for a reason.

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By natural selection I mean that those that can't conceive, don't.

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you have to expect a response!! I couldn't stop laughing when I read it yesterday and its still making me chuckle now....

There is no natural selection in the breeeding industry, what ever method you use and to say 'AI is wrong wrong wrong' does come across as very narrow minded, and it came over as if you have no inderstanding of AI at all (which I am sure isn't the case at all) because I am sure you well know that AI isn't there for differcult breeders... Its there because it has its place, its widens choice, lowers risks and means that mares and stallion no longer have to travel great distances... well unless your a TB
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although i do agree with AI, i can fully see your point of view as to why should the TB industry pay, when they do not use it, i presume some aspects of the work will have benefitted all breeds including TB, perhaps it would have been an idea (too late now of course) if the whole of the horse industry in this county could have contributed to the cost and kept it up and running, everybody is def entitled to an opinion, without being ridiculed
 
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although i do agree with AI, i can fully see your point of view as to why should the TB industry pay, when they do not use it, i presume some aspects of the work will have benefitted all breeds including TB...

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If you read above, you will see that the majority of the work carried out by the EFU benefitted the TB breeding industry as well as others.

In fact, just as an example, here are a few of the most recent publications from the EFU:

1) Expression of cell-surface antigens and embryonic stem cell pluripotency genes in equine blastocysts.
RELEVANT TO TBs

2) Reproductive efficiency of Flatrace and National Hunt Thoroughbred mares and stallions in England.
ONLY RELEVANT TO TBs

3) Immunohistochemical localization of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and its two receptors (Flt-I and KDR) in the endometrium and placenta of the mare during the oestrous cycle and pregnancy.
RELEVANT TO TBs

4) The effect of skin allografting on the equine endometrial cup reaction.
RELEVANT TO TBs

5) Effects of a Streptococcus equi infection--mediated nutritional insult during mid-gestation in primiparous Thoroughbred fillies. Part 1: placental and fetal development.
RELEVANT TO TBs

6) Laparoscopic application of PGE2 to re-establish oviducal patency and fertility in infertile mares: a preliminary study.
RELEVANT TO TBs

7) Structural and haemovascular aspects of placental growth throughout gestation in young and aged mares.
RELEVANT TO TBs

8)Stage-specific formation of the equine blastocyst capsule is instrumental to hatching and to embryonic survival in vivo.
RELEVANT TO TBs

Just because they use AI, and have researched it at the centre, does not mean that the resulting information is not relevant to the TB industry. Additionally, the unit was looking to the future.. in the hope that eventually the TB world will see sense, and allow AI and related technologies.

Anyhow, the vast majority of the work is relevant to TBs now, and the likelyhood is that the rest will be relevant in the future.

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perhaps it would have been an idea (too late now of course) if the whole of the horse industry in this county could have contributed to the cost and kept it up and running,

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It is my understanding that several individuals and groups attempted to fund the unit, but were stopped in their tracks because certain members of the TBA didn't want anyone else providing funding, which would allow them to steer the research in certain directions.

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everybody is def entitled to an opinion, without being ridiculed

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Well, of course. You can make "statements" of your opinion, but this is not the best way to enter into a discussion. The majority of well thought out opinions on this forum are backed up with some thoughts, ideas, even some questions for other users. Aggressive statements have like "x is wrong wrong wrong", are not useful here. Hence why posts like that will get somewhat facetious replies.
 
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By natural selection I mean that those that can't conceive, don't.

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SORRY but I can't resist this one!

So by that you don't consider the huge numbers of TB mares that now have poor vulval conformation is in any way related to the introduction of Caslicks operation in TB's ? That allowed mares that would have Naturally Selected themselves out of the gene pool in the past to carry on breeding.

Further that these non naturally selected mares have passed on their poor conformation and now there is the need for a further technique the Pouret operation for mares that have inherited appaling conformation in that area.

I also wonder how flexible the interpretation of this particular rule is "As an aid to the mating, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the Stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the reproductive tract of the Mare being bred." !!!

Not much of a step to take is it? To stop the spread of infectious disease and for the welfare of the horses?
 
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Now, some animals may be born infertile, or subfertile due to a particular set of genes related to fertility.

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Thanks for clarifying that AP I wasn't sure that it was confirmed to be hereditary although I guess all traits have a predisposition to any given genetic factor.

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My point is, just because a horse is subfertile, it doesn't mean it does not have a useful set of genes. So why shouldn't we use technology to enable it to breed?


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Sadly I guess if offspring of those particular mares do then reproduce and pass on the same poor fertility to her offspring they become a financial burden on the unsuspecting future breeder. Perhaps we could argue that there are many good horses that also have a useful set of genes so why not focus soley on breeding those.

Needless to say many vets and equine reproduction specialists will be all to happy to charge the client considerable sums of money in trying to achieve a pregnancy, all fine and well if you have the funds to do so.
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A single mare is one thing but what if the offspring then remains entire? and he mass reproduces and passes on those hereditary traits?
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The same debate has been discussed regarding twinning mares, we are certainly told that if there is a history of twins and multiple pregnancies in our family the probability of multiple pregnancies ourselves is higher. In consistantly removing the twin embryo, are we not propogating the statistical likelyhood of twinning in future generations?

Defintely food for thought and hadn't considered the negative consequences until now.
 
As technology moves on some of these issues will be prevented no doubt. But there is nothing natural about trying to get mares to foal Jan/Feb or feeding the offspring so they look mature on the outside & then put them on the racetrack at 2yo. You cant mention natural & the race industry in the same breath, they are as far apart from one another as you can get. Perhaps if there are fertility issues then maybe the animals should not be bred from, will that tbe the case for humans as well?
 
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But there is nothing natural about trying to get mares to foal Jan/Feb

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wholeheartedly agree with you magic but these practices are not isolated to the TB breeding industry it is common practice in many realms of breeding including the sport horse AI industry.
 
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Now, some animals may be born infertile, or subfertile due to a particular set of genes related to fertility.

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Thanks for clarifying that AP I wasn't sure that it was confirmed to be hereditary although I guess all traits have a predisposition to any given genetic factor.

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I wrote a paper about this a year or so ago, and my suggestions are beginning to be confirmed. They've found a single nucleotide polymorphism of a gene called CRISP3 (a seminal plasma protein) reduces fertility in Han' stallions. It is fairly likely that further investigations will show more genes that will be screenable in the future, to allow us to check for fertility without ever collecting semen or breeding the stallion!

It's just a shame it will take longer now, without the EFU!
 
It really is incredible what science is unravelling and undertsand your passion for being part of the research. I do also understand however why so much controversy is raised though, the arguement I guess would be well if it its infertile it can't and wont ever do any harm or propogate to an extent that it will. I guess thats whats meant by natural selection.

What advantages do you feel there are knowing this? I guess colts could be gelded at a much earlier age, avoiding owners the costs incurred of producing a stallion, any others? TIA
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Hi.interesting topic...but english please?? not everyone has the benefits of degrees in double dutch.or am I too to be ridiculed now???
 
There are people out there who are really glad for AI myself especially. If AI wasn't about my mare would not be pregnant now as every time she was put near the stallion she tried to take his head off even when she was right in the middle of her season and as the reason i wanted a foal is because this my first horse and i wanted one that was from her.
 
i fully agree with you, we are, or could be propogating a real problem for the future, sub fertility,twinning, and birth complications, all seem to run in familys in humans so, i presume,the same will apply to every species. Some years ago i knew a sheep farmer who was in a wheelchair, every ewe that had birth compications he sold, together with all its daughters, over a period of years he almost totally eliminated birth complications from his flock, a lot easier to do in sheep, but just making a point. AI for safety, convenience, or desease is one thing, but how far do we take it all.
 
to maid marion.interesting thought re birth complications.

I prefer natural service for my mares cos I think natural is just best. but then you are limited to what to put your mare. to.


also of course we don't want our stallions damaging by aggressive mares but then we are limited by time and distance for coverings..and of course this time etc puts the costs and stress levels up..

It makes sense aswell that if we have problems with mares then we don't re cover them.don't know why anyone would want to repeat a bad experience anyway..........and as for hereditary problems.thats a very interesting point. Breeding MOTs for horses???

I think the whole brood mare situation is sad anyway...heard today even of someone who has retired her mare now aged 20 and wants to breed.but her vet advises her not to cos of advanced arthritis.. but this owner approached me anyway cos she heard I had a pretty stallion(???).at least she asked her vets advice and then chose to ignore it cos she knows best, so many don't even ask....and many more of them are absolutely clueless anyway..seems that any mare of reasonable age and some soundness may be put in foal.irrespective of whether she is of good breeding material.simply cos the owner has no other job for this animal and yet can't bear to part with her..and what does this say about those of us who own stallions?. puts a lot of us in a bad light.stallion owners often just want as much money as they can get from the breeding season. and as long as an owner is paying, they will cover any donkey going.

maybe the whole breeding game could do with a huge overhaul.
 
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