Appaloosa, Breed or Colour? Confused.

[NZJenny]

I'm another one who has always been a bit confused about the whole colour vs breed thing.

I had a long conversation with a breeder here years ago, and he told me there is no breed standard, because know one knows what they originally looked like. As an Arabian person, I struggled with that, but apparently Appys descended from the horses left by the Spanish in the USA, and were bred by the Indians, who weren't that interested in conformation, just the colour.

Here in NZ (and I'm assuming elsewhere too), the horses are graded with ultimate being an "AA". To get an AA, you can breed a BB to a BB. I may have that slightly wonky, but that is how I remember it. He had a BB stallion and mare, and was looking to breed the first AA horse in NZ.

The "purebreds" here are very much western orientated, but as the colour has become more popular there are a lot of very interesting part breds. Arabian appys, and a very striking European Warm Blood Appy (who was 17 hh) are two of the more striking versions I have seen. Which leads back to the whole interesting breed vs colour discussion. They look nothing like the breed Appaloosas, but they are definitely appaloosa in colour.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The top one has a weak straight hind leg, poor second thigh, cannon bones are longer than ideal, he lacks depth through the girth, his neck, from what you can see, is set too low, is weak, almost ewe and comes from a slightly straight shoulder, he is lighter of bone that I would want and from the photo lacks any masculinity, to me he is just a bog standard "gelding" with nothing special about him whatsoever. He may move like a dream, have a wonderful nature but as a stallion I would not look at him twice.

The second is very different in his hind leg, he also has a poor second thigh, something that I have seen on most appy's, he is not straight like the first but it is still weaker than ideal, he has better bone and shoulder but still has a low set neck, he seems to be slightly downhill, his girth depth is nice and deep and I prefer his front leg, he also appears to have more presence and quality generally, he is also to my mind a better colour and has most importantly a nice face, kind eye and expression.

It would be interesting to see them move, most that I have seen lack power from behind, some are almost trailing their hind legs rather than pushing and it is not always due to poor training or bad riding, it is due to the weak conformation which no amount of schooling can ever totally make up for, that said if they do the job required it doesn't matter as long as the owners are happy and having fun, no horse is perfect it just seems a shame that a breed society is not trying to really improve the standard of conformation which should be a priority if they are going to be taken seriously as a breed for competitive purposes, I know not everyone wants to breed an olympic horse but even a low level horse will perform better and stay sound longer if it starts with fairly good confo and straight correct movement, although there are always exceptions.

Thank you, it's basically what I've been told.
The first one we lost in Jan at 21. He was fab. Alot of my horses aren't great conformation wise but their temperament is a must as my brother is disabled. Appys have that quite can.do attitude and I think they mainly bred to be working horses.

The second one that was taken last year when he was still growing and only just been backed. Not sure if I have a up to date one of him will.look.
He goes like a dream but he has two tbs, racers, in his close breeding so that's where his more presance and paces comes from. And his spots


It took a lot of schooling, mainly hacking in walk for a while to.get the top one schooling right. He has also done a bit of xc and sj. Nothing over 2'9 as that was his limit but he was just around fun




He also loved his beach holidays.




This is my third appy, he is the elephant mainly the one my brother rides.

 

[SmallHunter]

I have yet to meet any version of spotted horse or pony with decent conformation.

You can come meet mine I am under no illusions that she is perfect but she is decent enough to do well at showing and in type classes not appaloosa specific classes. Even now at 19 she stills holds her own against much younger and solid coloured competition.

That's not to say there aren't a lot of shoddily put together spotties out there, too many are bred just for colour but the same can be said of coloureds.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

If I'm reading this right am I the only one who considered them to be both, a colour and a breed?

As a breed their defining characteristics are mostly primarily on colour (rather than conformation for say welsh Ds) and you can have pure bred appys as well as part bred. I do very much like the Appaloosa breed of horse and find it's origins fascinating.

Similarly I also believe you can just have the genetic colouration of appaloosa on top of any other breed. How did it get there? Random mutation, influence from another spotted breed, recessive genes, 'throw back' to appy ancestors, who knows.

I know people have said that if the horse has all the characteristics it can be registered as a part-bred but that doesnt actually mean it is, just means we can call it that.

For example - here is a dog

Based on his colouration (black with white collar, facial markings, chest, lower leg and tip of tail) I am going to conclude that this dog is a Border Collie because those are the breed standard markings for collies.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is possible to 'look' like an appaloosa without actually being one, so surely that also means it is a colour. Just like the fruit the Orange, it existed and was named an Orange well before they decided to use that name to also denote the colour that it was, if you get my drift.

Appaloosa is a breed but I believe it now also denotes the coloured pattern on any breed of horse.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Appaloosa is not a colour.

The various spotty patterns have specific names regardless of what breed (or base colour) they are on, eg, Few Spot, Blanket spot, Snow cap, Leopard spot, Varnish roan and Solid.

 

[Sukistokes2]

I'm another one who has always been a bit confused about the whole colour vs breed thing.

I had a long conversation with a breeder here years ago, and he told me there is no breed standard, because know one knows what they originally looked like. As an Arabian person, I struggled with that, but apparently Appys descended from the horses left by the Spanish in the USA, and were bred by the Indians, who weren't that interested in conformation, just the colour.

Here in NZ (and I'm assuming elsewhere too), the horses are graded with ultimate being an "AA". To get an AA, you can breed a BB to a BB. I may have that slightly wonky, but that is how I remember it. He had a BB stallion and mare, and was looking to breed the first AA horse in NZ.

The "purebreds" here are very much western orientated, but as the colour has become more popular there are a lot of very interesting part breds. Arabian appys, and a very striking European Warm Blood Appy (who was 17 hh) are two of the more striking versions I have seen. Which leads back to the whole interesting breed vs colour discussion. They look nothing like the breed Appaloosas, but they are definitely appaloosa in colour.

Thats what this programme was about, this woman say a horse on TV which she knew was an appy but it was somewhere else. Her theory is that the Appy as a breed came overland to America and were not descended from the spanish horses. In the end they found a herd and and dna tests and there was evidence this could be true

 

[AppyLover]

Being an Appy is nothing to do with coat colour yes a large chunk happen to be spotty but it's just a colour. Any breed can have a spotty coat but this does not in anyway automatically make them an Appaloosa, A solid bay coloured coat can be a pure bred app if it meets the other breed characteristics.

 

[be positive]

Being an Appy is nothing to do with coat colour yes a large chunk happen to be spotty but it's just a colour. Any breed can have a spotty coat but this does not in anyway automatically make them an Appaloosa, A solid bay coloured coat can be a pure bred app if it meets the other breed characteristics.

So what are the breed characteristics and standard?

I have looked and found very little other than the 4 relating to coat and skin, I know that they do not have to be spotty to be registered if they have recorded verifiable breeding, maybe you could point me in the right direction.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Appaloosa is not a colour.

The various spotty patterns have specific names regardless of what breed (or base colour) they are on, eg, Few Spot, Blanket spot, Snow cap, Leopard spot, Varnish roan and Solid.

Absolutely I'm aware of all the colour names and the genetics of it all, fascinating stuff. What I was meaning that in popular culture the word appaloosa is used to describe a horse with a spotted (or frosted) coat pattern.
So technically the correct use of the word appaloosa means the breed of horse, however in popular (and incorrect) use it can mean a horse with a spotted coat.
Sorry if i havent explained very well what i mean.

 

[DJ]

Awwww jeez !!! Now I`m more confused than I was to start with ... I`m going to have to sit down and re-read these posts when I have more time. Thank you for all the replies, it would take me an age to reply to you all individually, so a blanket thank you will have to suffice lol ... I love the photos so thanks for sharing ...

 

[DJ]

Ok, so I`ve done a bit more research ... This gelding is of unknown breeding, no way to trace. He has spots, has the mottled skin, and the white sclera. So does that make him an appaloosa? Or just a spotty colour of any breed?

Now this is where I get confused. If someone asked me, I would have just said yes, he`s an Appaloosa (breed), but, could he be a connemara? Welsh? Cob? that happens to be spotty? (as opposed to grey, or bay) or if said horse has spots, then does it mean there HAS to be Appaloosa bloodlines in there somewhere to have the spots (Genetic LP thing, a throw back or part bred?) ... I hope I`m making sense here, or is it a question that simply can`t be answered?

Thanks for anyone who takes the time to reply. Sometimes I think about things way too much, but when I`ve started thinking about it (not helped by the program I watched with the older lady ) I like to try and get to the bottom of it, although the Gene thing does challenge my brain. My oh says I think too much, I fear he may be right

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

None of the British Native breeds can be spotted. You get a load of spotted shetlands but they arent real shetlands, can not be registered with the breed society and can not be shown in any M&M classes. They are part breds.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

You can come meet mine I am under no illusions that she is perfect but she is decent enough to do well at showing and in type classes not appaloosa specific classes. Even now at 19 she stills holds her own against much younger and solid coloured competition.

That's not to say there aren't a lot of shoddily put together spotties out there, too many are bred just for colour but the same can be said of coloureds.

Your one is lovely and has enough mane to plait and a tail that isnt a whisp!

Coloureds, especially the cobs, are going done hill when breeding for colour and hair. I dont agree with breeding for colour.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

So what are the breed characteristics and standard?

I have looked and found very little other than the 4 relating to coat and skin, I know that they do not have to be spotty to be registered if they have recorded verifiable breeding, maybe you could point me in the right direction.

This might help.

http://www.appaloosa.com/registration/indentify.htm

Also this is an interesting read
http://www.appaloosaspot.com/aphc-breed-standards.html

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Ok, so I`ve done a bit more research ... This gelding is of unknown breeding, no way to trace. He has spots, has the mottled skin, and the white sclera. So does that make him an appaloosa? Or just a spotty colour of any breed?

Now this is where I get confused. If someone asked me, I would have just said yes, he`s an Appaloosa (breed), but, could he be a connemara? Welsh? Cob? that happens to be spotty? (as opposed to grey, or bay) or if said horse has spots, then does it mean there HAS to be Appaloosa bloodlines in there somewhere to have the spots (Genetic LP thing, a throw back or part bred?) ... I hope I`m making sense here, or is it a question that simply can`t be answered?

Thanks for anyone who takes the time to reply. Sometimes I think about things way too much, but when I`ve started thinking about it (not helped by the program I watched with the older lady ) I like to try and get to the bottom of it, although the Gene thing does challenge my brain. My oh says I think too much, I fear he may be right

I would say he would be part bred as has unknown breeding, does.he have striped hooves?

The registered appys have their breeding Known, if unknown breeding but has a good amount of characteristics they can be registered as part bred.

The horse could be crossed with a ID, Welsh, Connie or bog standard cob and have appy as the other mix. With all the indiscriminate breeding going on and not registering off spring it's hard to tell.

The British Appaloosa Society has certain criteria to be registered as a brood mare or stallion with them. I've known some people to be turned down but still go and breed anyway but don't register the offspring

 

[DJ]

Thank you SC .... I don`t know about the hooves, I don`t think they are stripped from the couple of photos I have seen, they appear to be just white. You have explained that very well, and I think I`m beginning to understand it. The post with the dog also really helped (Great Dane, but being named a collie due to the markings), I think that was paintmeproud who put that post up but yes, I feel a bit more like I understand it all now ... It hasn`t taken that many pages has it ... he he he, thanks again peoples, now does anyone know if penguins get cold feet?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Thank you SC .... I don`t know about the hooves, I don`t think they are stripped from the couple of photos I have seen, they appear to be just white. You have explained that very well, and I think I`m beginning to understand it. The post with the dog also really helped (Great Dane, but being named a collie due to the markings), I think that was paintmeproud who put that post up but yes, I feel a bit more like I understand it all now ... It hasn`t taken that many pages has it ... he he he, thanks again peoples, now does anyone know if penguins get cold feet?

no worries. It took me a while to understand it too, then add in British Spotted Pony's and The other spotty breed that I can't spell and it's just confusing.

I can ask a friend re the penguin she is a zoo keeper

 

[be positive]

Thank you, it's basically what I've been told.
The first one we lost in Jan at 21. He was fab. Alot of my horses aren't great conformation wise but their temperament is a must as my brother is disabled. Appys have that quite can.do attitude and I think they mainly bred to be working horses.

The second one that was taken last year when he was still growing and only just been backed. Not sure if I have a up to date one of him will.look.
He goes like a dream but he has two tbs, racers, in his close breeding so that's where his more presance and paces comes from. And his spots



So is the second one a part bred as he has known tb ancestry?

 

[be positive]

This might help.

http://www.appaloosa.com/registration/indentify.htm

Also this is an interesting read
http://www.appaloosaspot.com/aphc-breed-standards.html

The first just details the colour/ markings etc and has nothing about conformation.

The second does link to breed standards http://www.appaloosaspot.com/2011-standard.html but is fairly limited and from my experience the description of the hind leg confo is nothing like most appys regularly seen over here, the main failing is their weak hindleg, in fact reading it again I am not sure the following paragraph is even possible or makes sense "Rear legs, when viewed from behind, should have a perpendicular line from the point of the hindquarter that should fall upon the center of the hock, cannon, pastern and foot. From the side, a perpendicular line from the hip joint should fall upon the center of the foot and divide the gaskin in the middle, and a perpendicular line from the point of the quarter should run parallel with the line of the
cannon."

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Thank you, it's basically what I've been told.
The first one we lost in Jan at 21. He was fab. Alot of my horses aren't great conformation wise but their temperament is a must as my brother is disabled. Appys have that quite can.do attitude and I think they mainly bred to be working horses.

The second one that was taken last year when he was still growing and only just been backed. Not sure if I have a up to date one of him will.look.
He goes like a dream but he has two tbs, racers, in his close breeding so that's where his more presance and paces comes from. And his spots



So is the second one a part bred as he has known tb ancestry?

No, he is registered as full.

British Appaloosa have different grades, will have to look in the spottys passport to see which one he is. It's something like the more registered appys you have in the breed line the higher the grading. It confuses me to be honest.

This explains the difference between American and British appys.

http://m.appaloosa.org.uk/site/mobi.../www.appaloosa.org.uk/&fb_sig_network=fw#0310

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The horse pictured could theoretically have zero Appaloosa blood. The LP and PATN genes could come from Knabstrupper ancestors, for example.

Replace the word 'spotty' with another colour eg 'buckskin'. Welshies can be buckskin, but not all buckskins are Welshies. Appaloosas can be spotty, but not all spotties are Appaloosas. It's that simple.

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Appaloosas can be spotty, but not all spotties are Appaloosas. It's that simple.

That's it, lol, what I've been trying, and failing dismally, to say. Thanks Faracat

Basically lay people think 'spotty' and 'appaloosa' are interchangable which is why the confusion arrises about is it a breed or a colour.

 

[DJ]

no worries. It took me a while to understand it too, then add in British Spotted Pony's and The other spotty breed that I can't spell and it's just confusing.

I can ask a friend re the penguin she is a zoo keeper

Eeeeek, don`t start adding more into the equation for me, I`m only just wrapping my head around the first bit ... Brilliant that your friend is a zoo keeper, that has really tickled me lolol

The horse pictured could theoretically have zero Appaloosa blood. The LP and PATN genes could come from Knabstrupper ancestors, for example.

Replace the word 'spotty' with another colour eg 'buckskin'. Welshies can be buckskin, but not all buckskins are Welshies. Appaloosas can be spotty, but not all spotties are Appaloosas. It's that simple.

Now that ^^^ makes sense, but may have confused me a bit more, does the knapstrupper have the same four characteristics, the mottled skin, white sclera, etc as well as the spots? or does having the white sclera and mottled skin as well as the spots make the breeding more likely to be Appaloosa?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

An Appaloosa is a Breed not a colour as Apps can come in anything from a solid colour to a leopard spot and many coat patterns inbetween. It's the characteristics that make them an Appy like you the striped hooves, mootled skin, white sclera, some say big knees and I'm pretty sure they have to be a certain height. Even though I own an App I'm still not an expert but know the basics 😊

This^


I went to view this pretty girl for loan and she is no way spotty. http://horses4homes.net/portal/en/details/mels-bright-eyes-bambi-16475

 

[MasterBenedict]

Appaloosa is a breed not a colour. A spotted horse without recorded Appaloosa breeding is exactly that - a spotted horse. (Although there are other, rarer breeds such as knabstruppers and norikers that also have the same colour characteristics).

There are two Appaloosa registries in the UK, both with different rules as to what can be registered, which is a bit of a headache to say the least!

One allows out crosses with TB, Arab and Quarter Horses, in what I think is an attempt to improve the breed... So an Appaloosa can be registered as full appy even if it is 1/2 TB, Arab or QH...

The other does not!

My boy is part bred. His sire is an American Appaloosa who was imported some years ago but had a high percentage of QH blood. His dam is a spotted cob who is not registered and has no recorded Appaloosa breeding.

 

[Orangehorse]

The American appaloosas were ridden by a tribe of Red Indians and they were regarded as very good animals. That is why when they were finally defeated by the American Army and shipped off to an Indian Reservation, all the horses were rounded up and shot. A good time later a horse enthusiast tried to track down as many surviving appaloosas as possible to preserve the breed. It is thanks to him that there is a breed left at all.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Now that ^^^ makes sense, but may have confused me a bit more, does the knapstrupper have the same four characteristics, the mottled skin, white sclera, etc as well as the spots? or does having the white sclera and mottled skin as well as the spots make the breeding more likely to be Appaloosa?

RE white sclera I have purebred arabs with that, so it's not essential for a horse to have appy blood to have that characteristic. I don't know enough about Knabstruppers to say if white sclera are common or not in that breed. The Knap breed standard does say 'at the least there must be skin coloured spots around natural openings' when discussing colour, so yes mottled skin is present. I have seen plenty of photos of Knaps with striped hooves.

Basically the gene causing the spots and the genes causing the size of the area of the spots (eg blanked or leopard) are exactly the same in both breeds as well as other spotted breeds. Just as it's the same cream gene that causes buckskin in welshies, connies, akhal tekes et al.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Appaloosa is a breed not a colour. A spotted horse without recorded Appaloosa breeding is exactly that - a spotted horse. (Although there are other, rarer breeds such as knabstruppers and norikers that also have the same colour characteristics).

There are two Appaloosa registries in the UK, both with different rules as to what can be registered, which is a bit of a headache to say the least!

One allows out crosses with TB, Arab and Quarter Horses, in what I think is an attempt to improve the breed... So an Appaloosa can be registered as full appy even if it is 1/2 TB, Arab or QH...

The other does not!

My boy is part bred. His sire is an American Appaloosa who was imported some years ago but had a high percentage of QH blood. His dam is a spotted cob who is not registered and has no recorded Appaloosa breeding.

His markings are amazing!

So what's the other appy register?

Mine are with the British Appaloosa Society, which I think is the one that allows other mixed to improve the breed but can be registered as full appy if their is six generations of appys. I think that's how it works....I get confused

 

[AppyLover]

His markings are amazing!

So what's the other appy register?

Mine are with the British Appaloosa Society, which I think is the one that allows other mixed to improve the breed but can be registered as full appy if their is six generations of appys. I think that's how it works....I get confused

I also have to agree his markings are amazing and very unique

Appaloosa Horse Club (ApHC uk) is the other one I think

 

[NZJenny]

Having read and re-read, I get it. But, I have to say from a breed perspective the poor old Appaloosa is in complete disarray.

The ones here that are classed as Appaloosa, look like spotted Quarter Horses, with pathetic tails and no manes. And I have to say conformation wise, the ones here are a bit lacking - colour seems to be everything and I see a lot of basic conformation faults and declining movement.

Given no breed standard and it seems that there is no one breed registry, and an open stud book - the breed Appaloosa is not in very good shape.