Are horses too cheap

[Clare85]

I got my boy super cheap £200- very accessible I guess. However, he is the most cherished and well looked after horse.... should he not have been sold that cheap to me?

That's great that you picked up your boy so cheap and he has been lucky to find a lovely home with you. However, horses and ponies who are sold so cheaply are accessible to anyone. For every bargain basement horse who finds a loving, knowledgeable, responsible home, there will be countless others who end up with a home where the owner really has no idea what a commitment owning a horse is, and how expensive/dangerous it could end up if something goes wrong. I think the point is that anyone can just go out and buy a horse nowadays, if they were holding their value still people would think very long and hard about parting with thousands rather than hundreds (or in some cases less) and we wouldn't see so many broken/damaged/neglected equines around the place that just get pushed from pillar to post because people haven't thought their purchase through properly.

 

[maree t]

Difficult one, so much about supply and demand isnt it ?.
My first pony cost £950 30 years ago, 14,2hh chestnut mare , very difficult ,many health problems etc turns out lot older than I was told etc
I am looking at a 13hh 7 year old pony for my daughter , welsh sec b , too forward going for a lot of kids £600 .
If the welshie wasnt so cheap we wouldnt be looking at him , we have 5 already , well cared for and much loved ,
what would happen to him then I wonder. He may not be suitable anyway . We will continue looking and will only be spending 5 or 600 and are being offered ponies for this . Some of them very well bred but just not quiet childrens ponies .

 

[YasandCrystal]

But they ARE cheap if you don't actually provide any of the pesky things like food, worming, farrier care, etc. The divide is not caused by money/no money, posh/pleb, it's caused by it being too easy to just get a horse - and then not care for it.

Exactly this Cortez - my argument against people keeping horses on a shoestring is that they often only provide the very bare minimum. Frankly in the past I sold a horse because I didn't believe I had the income at that time to cover what I see as the 'bare minimum'. To me every horse should have an annual vaccination, dentistry visit, bodyworker session (if ridden), wormed at least spring and autumn and regular farriery care as well as sufficient forage and water and shelter and stimulation/company. If one doesn't have a great income or savings then insurance (liability is a must anyway) is imperative imo also. Just things like saddle fitting should be counted in the everday cost and to me supplements are again just part of the normal cost.
Horses are a luxury expensive to keep animal - they always have been. The fact that there are so many 'free' or being sold for peanuts can simply attract people to take one on before weighing up the true cost of responsible ownership.

 

[RunToEarth]

I agree OP. How many people come on this forum and complain that they have bought a horse and can no longer afford to keep it/ feed it/pay the vets bills? All because it is relatively easy to go out there with minimal knowledge, a few hundred quid and pick yourself up a horse for life...

 

[amandap]

So would having to demonstrate a minimum disposable income solve the welfare problems?

 

[Mithras]

Even good level competition horses are much cheaper just now - which is why I've cashed in and have 3!

The UK economy is strange just now. Certain things are really expensive - housing, and other things are cheap and businesses are going bust, yet average salaries are about 20% lower than in Holland and Germany, where horses are really expensive and housing cheaper. Perhaps this explains a lot!

 

[mandwhy]

So would having to demonstrate a minimum disposable income solve the welfare problems?

Nope because someone would set it too high based on their standards or an 'average' spend. There are always brackets like that e.g. we are moving house soon, to a house that is the same rent as our current one, you have to earn over 28,000. Do we earn that? Do we heck! So we need my dad as a guarantor which is fine, because we've been paying rent for the past two years so its not going to change.

I have a horse and a pony and I do keep them on a shoestring because I am a student. They haven't gone without so far. They are cheap to keep and live out but are insured and have all the food, hay, farrier, vaccs, worming etc that they need, the ridden one has any saddle attention as needed. I don't earn much but still buy rugs and things if they need them, I just don't buy much else. One recently had an abscess and of course I thought 'I could really do without a big vet bill' but I would have paid it. Thankfully it had started to drain by the time the farrier came to look (god bless that robust horse).

Many people would look at our income and say well, take away money for clothes, toiletries, food when out and about, socialising, how can this person afford a horse? Because I spend very minimal money on any of the above because they're not as important to me as the horses.

I just dislike other people applying their standards and their 'necessities' to my life, as surely I'm the one who should decide

Also the first thing I would cut spending on if needed it anything to do with riding e.g. saddles etc, I am happy to have a horse that I don't ride.

I also don't have any debt other than student loan. That's another important thing to me

 

[touchstone]

I don't think that there is anything wrong in keeping a horse on a shoestring - providing the horses needs are met. There are plenty of owners like Mandwhy who do the best by their horses and make sacrifices in other areas in order to do so. We haven't holidayed for years because the animals come first for us, but I'm happier that way.

The problems start when people pick up a horse cheaply and then can't/won't pay for ongoing care.

I'm sure I've said before, but my dad was offered a youngster plus twenty pounds if he'd take it, by someone who'd picked up a mare cheaply and then bred from it to make money and then wouldn't pay for it over winter. If he'd had to pay more for the mare in the first place he would possibly have thought twice about his money making venture.

There are always exceptions and circumstances change, and with the current economic climate I think that there will be those who managed okay or easily before the recession who now find that horse keeping is a financial impossibility and I feel so sorry for them and their horses.

 

[twiggy2]

Having disposable income does not make you a good person

 

[Goldenstar]

Having disposable income does not make you a good person

But having an damaged uninsured horse (uninsured because it's was cheap because of an impairment ) could be a disaster for both the person and the horse if you don't have the income to afford it being a good person has nothing to do with it if you can't afford the£1000 a lame horse can run through very quickly .

 

[twiggy2]

But having an damaged uninsured horse (uninsured because it's was cheap because of an impairment ) could be a disaster for both the person and the horse if you don't have the income to afford it being a good person has nothing to do with it if you can't afford the£1000 a lame horse can run through very quickly .

nothing to say the person with disposable income would spend it on the horse.

as long as the person takes the decision to not allow the horse to suffer that is fine by me

It is more about wether people are willing to sacrifice things in order to provide what is 'needed' by the horse, mine has spent a year living out being backed at the costly sum of £80per month including straw, she is barefoot and I rasp her when needed and farrier sees her 4 monthly-it can be cheaper than smoking, if things go wrong people have to make the decision that best suits the combination of owner and horse and that includes what the wallet can cope with.

where I work we have in the past had animals dumped on us that have cost in excess of 2k and these are puppies, so I really dont agree with the whole idea if something costs more people will look after it

 

[oldie48]

This. I feel too many people breed horses indiscriminately, they have a mare that's lame or unrideable and think it's a good idea to have a foal or two before considering how good the progeny is going to be. Then they don't have the experience or time to bring them on properly and they end up with a horse which doesn't have much value and often it's bought by someone equally thoughtless. Partly because there are too many cheap horses around, it's difficult for people bringing young horses on for sale to make much money, so some of them will do a rush job and it's the horse which suffers in the end. A cheap horse is usually cheap for a reason and they cost as much or often more to keep than one which is priced to reflect it's quality and suitability for the leisure rider but often folk don't recognise that. A quality well educated horse will generally always have a better chance of a decent life than one which is not.

Perhaps it's not so much that horses are too cheap, but too numerous: supply and demand and all that.

 

[Goldenstar]

nothing to say the person with disposable income would spend it on the horse.

as long as the person takes the decision to not allow the horse to suffer that is fine by me

It is more about wether people are willing to sacrifice things in order to provide what is 'needed' by the horse, mine has spent a year living out being backed at the costly sum of £80per month including straw, she is barefoot and I rasp her when needed and farrier sees her 4 monthly-it can be cheaper than smoking, if things go wrong people have to make the decision that best suits the combination of owner and horse and that includes what the wallet can cope with.

where I work we have in the past had animals dumped on us that have cost in excess of 2k and these are puppies, so I really dont agree with the whole idea if something costs more people will look after it

I have paid £8000 on my Tb since I bought him I have the money to do this if he had been bought by someone without the £8000 or unwilling to spend it he would be in a lot of trouble now .
Many people buy a cheap horse ( mine was not in the cheap horse bracket ) without considering how much they cost to run .
If you have not got the money when reality hits then the horse and the owner are in trouble no way round it .

 

[windand rain]

thanks everyone for interpreting what I was trying to get over to you the point being because horses are cheap they become disposable if you can buy a pony for less that a large bar of chocolate why would you place any real value on its care if it dies of starvation or is ill you just dump it on someone else and buy another one. That is what I meant by cheap as not necessarily in monetary terms but in value to the owner. Yes there people who give up everything to keep their horses I personally do so but I also know of many more people that collect 10 pound ponies or freebies and they are dumped in a field and never fed, seen to, wormed or any of the other things they need. Why because they can, if those horses had cost several thousand pounds each they would not have them and therefore welfare would improve. A horse isnt a bar of chocolate or a bike it needs knowledgeable care and its welfare needs met
Yes there are rich people who will do the same but it is the law of probability that there will be far fewer at both ends of the scale than there will be in the middle make the horses more expensive to own then the result would skew to the point where the majority of people who really want a horse and can look after it will save and get one and looked after it gaining knowledge before purchase so they understand the costs and problems clearly before they start Too many horses are bought as fashion accessories and whim purchases for it to be in their best interests.
Oh and because if litigation and insurance lessons have got prohibitively expenssive for the average person

 

[twiggy2]

I have paid £8000 on my Tb since I bought him I have the money to do this if he had been bought by someone without the £8000 or unwilling to spend it he would be in a lot of trouble now .
Many people buy a cheap horse ( mine was not in the cheap horse bracket ) without considering how much they cost to run .
If you have not got the money when reality hits then the horse and the owner are in trouble no way round it .

many people buy an expensive horse and don't factor in costs,

I don't think it has anything to do with financial wealth or lack of it, it is everything to do with people and their attitude to animals, 8K I would be unlikely to spend on a horse even though I have it, I would probably PTS personally that said I don't know what the problems have been. I also don't think a horse that has been PTS is in trouble.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one?

 

[twiggy2]

thanks everyone for interpreting what I was trying to get over to you the point being because horses are cheap they become disposable if you can buy a pony for less that a large bar of chocolate why would you place any real value on its care if it dies of starvation or is ill you just dump it on someone else and buy another one

for me it is nothing to do with how much it cost me to buy it, i was offered mine for free as a yearling as the owner was sure it would be a good home-i declined as I did not have the time, a year later I went and paid money (she was still relatively cheap) for the same horse as my circumstances had changed and I liked her-she has been with me nearly 5yrs.

 

[Goldenstar]

many people buy an expensive horse and don't factor in costs,

I don't think it has anything to do with financial wealth or lack of it, it is everything to do with people and their attitude to animals, 8K I would be unlikely to spend on a horse even though I have it, I would probably PTS personally that said I don't know what the problems have been. I also don't think a horse that has been PTS is in trouble.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one?

To not fix the teeth ( most of his costs where his tooth jaw issue ) of a perfectly healthy young horse to give it a normal life just because you chose not to spend the money, yes I think it we will have to agree to disagree on that

 

[cptrayes]

The sympathy in humans has decreased over the years as has the ability for empathy, this is why people are seeing more abuse (in people and humans).

I really don't think that any of this statement is true. I doubt very much that the statistics support the idea that there is more abuse in humans.

And if there more abuse in animals in total numbers, I am reasonably sure that it will be accounted for, or more, by the increase in the number of animals being kept.

If anyone has the time or inclination to research this, it would be interesting to know what you find.

My own impression is that it has gone the other way, with animal welfare issues now being caused by an excessively emotional view to animals and a refusal to put them down when that would be in their best interests.

In answer to the first question? Yes, ridiculously cheap. Until the vet bills hit and you have no insurance cover for that illness or accident.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think this is actually two separate conversations. One dealing with cruelty/active neglect and another with owners who don't have the resources in place to care for all eventualities and don't even realise that fact!

Like olivia x, I was rather taken aback at how cheaply you can buy and keep a horse in the UK. (To the people saying lessons are the expensive bit, relatively speaking, that isn't true. In North America, in a horsey area or near an urban centre you would easily pay a minimum of $30 a lesson and up to $100+ for a popular skilled instructor.) You don't *have* to have a car (I don't know anyone in NA who has a horse and doesn't have a car), you can keep even a competition horse in a field without a barn (not possible in many climates) or access to a school, you can get RC instruction for £15 . . . all of which means it's possible to have a horse without a lot of disposable income.


To be fair, it is possible to do similar in very rural, temperate parts of NA but then you will be a days drive from competitions and you certainly won't be near any centres of heavy employment.

I don't think insurance helps. Okay, it means horses can get access to high powered medical help but the actual vet costs are not all of what needs to be paid in those situations. It also allows people to ignore the fact that they need an emergency fund set away or regular access to sufficient disposable income to cover unexpected necessities. (Which aren't usually unexpected!)

So you do end up with a lot of people who can *just* cover the costs but absolutely nothing else. I meet people regularly who are getting HURT by their horses and do not have the £20 to have an instructor help them out. (Although they may have it to spend on a new piece of tack, which is another conversation . . .) They certainly don't have the £80-£100 to ship it commercially to a medical centre for a work up, even if their insurance will cover the actual vet work, or the money to pay for after care which might mean, for instance, moving out of the field and to a yard with a school.

I know people who work very hard for their money and take impeccable care of their horses - income is no indicator or skill or attention or a realistic outlook. But I would agree there are a lot of people who simply CAN'T afford to meet their horse's needs even without a crisis or a change in circumstances.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I got my boy super cheap £200- very accessible I guess. However, he is the most cherished and well looked after horse.... should he not have been sold that cheap to me?

You have a point and I too have a 4 yr old well bred filly that was sold to me for £1. She is beautiful but has now been diagnosed with ringbone - very advanced in one fore fetlock (unbeknown to previous owner). I have her insured and I have turned her away on a good joint supplement and turmeric for 6 months in the hope the joint will fuse. Everything one would expect from a responsible owner. But if I had her on a shoestring I may not nbe able to do that.
I think that anyone on this forum or at least I would guess most people on this forum are caring owners regardless of what they paid for their horses. Just taking the bother to be a member shows an interest/passion for horses doesn't it? So HHO members would not be a representative sample one way or the other I think.

 

[Arizahn]

I have noticed an attitude of cheap horses not being worth insuring. One individual observed to me that: "It is pointless worrying about vet bills, as who would waste the money on anything that only cost x amount to buy in the first place?"

As if only expensive horses are worth caring for through serious illness! This attitude seems more common in those owners that are well off, or who own their own land. To them, a cheap horse is simply a commodity, to be disposed of if it becomes too costly. It worries me

But on the other hand, there are the people who can't afford to go buy another if this one breaks. They do keep them on a shoestring, but they care so much, and they get insurance or else have a vet fund, etc. They value their cheap horse as much as they would an expensive one. I think this is where most of the owners I know fit in. We are not rich, but not broke, and we do our best. If we cannot keep them properly, we admit it and do the right thing by them.

And the third lot, who have no cash to spare, can't afford a horse, but won't accept this and get one or two anyhow. That they cannot look after. They get them free or on loan, and ruin them, and I really hate them. I hate the owners that gift or loan to them without ever checking or caring what happens too.

 

[Dry Rot]

many people buy an expensive horse and don't factor in costs,

I don't think it has anything to do with financial wealth or lack of it, it is everything to do with people and their attitude to animals, 8K I would be unlikely to spend on a horse even though I have it, I would probably PTS personally that said I don't know what the problems have been. I also don't think a horse that has been PTS is in trouble.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree on this one?

I'm glad you said that. I wonder how many buyers of cheap horses realise how difficult and expensive it may be to get rid of that bargain when things don't pan out?

When my neighbour's old pony had to be put down, he got the vet and then the knackery to take away the corpse. He was horrified at the cost as both vet and knackery charged a small fortune! The final bill ran into hundreds, far more than the horse was ever worth. How many budget for that cost?

 

[undergroundoli]

In North America, in a horsey area or near an urban centre you would easily pay a minimum of $30 a lesson and up to $100+ for a popular skilled instructor.)...you can get RC instruction for £15

You'd be hard pressed to get riding school lessons for 15 quid. Until I moved from Wales I was paying 35 quid for an hours private, now I pay £25 for an hours group or £30 for 45 minutes. Makes £25 diy look pretty attractive.

 

[TarrSteps]

You'd be hard pressed to get riding school lessons for 15 quid. Until I moved from Wales I was paying 35 quid for an hours private, now I pay £25 for an hours group or £30 for 45 minutes. Makes £25 diy look pretty attractive.

And near Toronto you'd probably pay double that. And, with one one very expensive exception that offers lessons in an indoor school only, there isn't a riding school you could get to without a car.

I agree with your point though, that state of affairs does make it seem cost effective to get a cheap horse and teach yourself. Presumably without realising that the reasons lessons cost what they do is because of the costs of keeping horses. . .

 

[Goldenstar]

Arizahn .
I own my land / yard .
Have access to as much money as you could ever want to care for a horse .
I never have insured a horse free , cheap or expensive and can tell you straight once a horse has arrived here free cheap or expensive they all treated exactly the same .
I am course lucky I never have to chose between having nothing to ride and putting a horse to sleep when stuff goes wrong it's between me and the horse. It's not so easy for people who have one horse and to buy another doubles the cost.

 

[undergroundoli]

And near Toronto you'd probably pay double that. And, with one one very expensive exception that offers lessons in an indoor school only, there isn't a riding school you could get to without a car.

But the point isn't that it would be more or less expensive for some one living in Toronto to ride, the point is I could by a horse and a weeks livery for the cost of a decent private lesson. Horses being cheep relative to riding schools undoubtedly push people to buying horses without enough experience to deal with them playing up, or to get a pony for their kids without really understanding the costs involved.

 

[cbmcts]

When I was a child - a very long time ago - horses were expensive to buy as was tack but the actual cost of keeping them was affordable. There was a lot more grazing available even on the edge of large towns/cities so that was the cheaper option. Sturdy ponies lived out 24/7, vet care while admittedly a lot less sophisticated was affordable and insurance was unheard of but we were unlikely to be sued (even by the golf course that our ponies decided to have a midnight rave on, well it did cost my Dad a few bottles of whiskey I believe ) Wormer was once a year Panacur cattle paste and we hacked to the farriers forge so these also kept costs down. Showing/competing/pony club was low cost because we hacked there and i doubt that anywhere had to include scarily expensive liability insurance...

The thing is, a lot of the cost of keeping a horse these days is increased by the way that they tend to be kept. Land is at a premium in most areas so the cost of renting/buying has to be calculated into livery fees. It also means that much of this scare grazing is overstocked which brings in the need for extra worming and the likelihood of injuries with the resultant vet bills. Horses spend a lot more time in or needing to be hayed in the fields but the forage is also rising in price because it is grown on yet more of the scare resource, land. The advances in veterinary medicine has meant that even routine care has shot up as the vets have to cover the cost of all these high tech facilities even if you are lucky enough never to need them. Then there's insurance - an essential cost but getting ever more expensive due to the rises in vet costs but also the fact that because no one dares do without at least public liability, the assumption is that you could/will be sued if anything goes wrong.

I've always said the vet callout is exactly the same for a free horse as a champion and at a £100 a time it all adds up.

 

[Arizahn]

Goldenstar, then you are not the sort of person that I refer to. I'm glad to know that But sadly there are a lot of them in my area. Own perhaps close to a hundred acres of land, with stables, etc. They don't insure, and will not spend money on vet bills unless the horse is valuble enough. Regardless of age too. Young pony that requires vet care costing a few hundred pounds is seen as being a drain - cheaper to buy another. They can afford insurance/treatment etc, they just choose not to.

For example, I was told to shoot mine and buy another if he were ever hurt prior to being in work. Well, he was hurt, but I chose to keep him and care for him. He came sound. I based my decision on the vet's advice, the people I refer to would have rung the hunt instead of the vet.

It doesn't sit well with me.

 

[TarrSteps]

Absolutely, ugd! As I agreed above.

My only point re the price comment is that even lessons are beyond most people in parts of the world where riding is more expensive, so at least people know the score early in the game. Riding is elitist in a way it isn't really in the UK, which is a cultural divide as much as an economic one.

 

[undergroundoli]

Absolutely! As I agreed above.

My only point re the price comment is that even lessons are beyond most people in parts of the world where riding is more expensive, so at least people know the score early in the game. Riding is elitist in a way it isn't really in the UK, which is a cultural divide as much as an economic one.

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment. Need this coffee to get down to a drinkable temperature ASAP