Are local shows fixed?

[The-Bookworm]

Someone once put in a complaint about me in regards to the tack and turnout placing. It cost them £10 to do so.
What were they arguing over - my 7th to their 8th, both of which got you a special rosette.
I think the best part was they told me all about it after I had got changed and didn't have the horse, not realising who they were telling. Classic response from me and shocked expression from them.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

I haven't done a lot of showing but I sometimes take my boys out to a local show or two for the experience. All the judges I have ever met at these local shows have been very professional but more importantly really helpful! I remember one judge sought me out after my class to give me advice on what she thought my horse could do. She had placed him third in a novice ridden horse class - it was my first time showing and I didn't have a clue and was utterly terrified. So it was really nice of her to do that and lets face it, she didn't have to. I actually came away buzzing and so proud of my horse's third place. When i'd arrived I was a shaking bundle of nerves and overwhelmed by the size of the show and its location so it was brilliant to have left the show feeling that way. A photo from that day which I treasure (excuse the stupid grin lol)!

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

I gave up with showing years ago
For many reasons

1* In a coloured class which included odd coloured, we found out judge loved show coloured cobs. 1- 8 were coloureds all got rosettes, 9 - 13 also coloureds placed. After that came the the palominos and roans and duns. All she said to me was * he is a bit narrow in front* he was ruddy 2 years old what she expect

I entered one of these classes on my spotty horse. The class started earlier than I expected as there weren't many entries in the classes before and so I literally paid my entry and then ran back to the trailer , threw tack on and went in. My horse wasn't warmed up and did not show well, not in an outline, broke in canter, spooky but we got pulled in first. All the others in the class were coloured cobs. One particular lady was very annoyed. I did feel rather guilty walking away with the trophy but the judge totally adored my horse. What could I do!!!!

 

[GTRJazz]

The Mrs was told her horse was lame in at a show I entered another class with her horse same day same judge and won. Maybe I just pushed him forward more. But the daftest thing I ever witnessed was a local show they picked third and second then said this is really hard did not know out of two horses which was the winner after a lot of playing around picked their mate
i then asked if it was that hard to choose why the other horse was not second but not placed at all? probably 2nd and 3rd were also mates of theirs

 

[sav123]

Many years ago I did a couple of in-hand classes with a young pony at a local show, just for something to do - I can't even remember what the classes were (I have no clue about showing or any desire to do it seriously). I thought we looked quite smart - he was a pretty, well put-together pony and was clean and plaited, I was wearing shirt and tie, tweed jacket, smart trousers and boots, hair in a bun. He was very well behaved and trotted up nicely.

In the first class, I was told I was incorrectly turned out as I wasn't wearing a hat (as I said, I know nothing about showing so didn't realise I should have worn one!). Oh, and that he was unlevel (he wasn't).

In the second, the winner was a lady with a flashy Welsh D (stallion if I remember correctly). She was dressed in a vest top, shorts and trainers and with long hair left loose (no hat!), and there was no way of telling if the horse was sound as it leapt about on the end of the lead rein and didn't show a single stride of trot. During the confo part, the judge and the competitor were having a gossip about mutual friends, following weekend's plans, etc. They didn't even have the decency to hide the bias until the class had finished!

 

[rascal]

I think a lot of local shows are fixed. I had a lovely coloured cob a while ago, he did really well, even champion at the CHAPS show.
One local show we took him to was obviously fixed, mine was well turned out with nicely trimmed hooves, the winner had not even had a bath, with untrimmed hooves, and hs conformation was not good, but they were obviously friends with the judge, and the people running the show. Needless to say, we never bothered with that show again.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I think a lot of local shows are fixed. I had a lovely coloured cob a while ago, he did really well, even champion at the CHAPS show.
One local show we took him to was obviously fixed, mine was well turned out with nicely trimmed hooves, the winner had not even had a bath, with untrimmed hooves, and hs conformation was not good, but they were obviously friends with the judge, and the people running the show. Needless to say, we never bothered with that show again.

I have given up showing my shetland in CHAPS classes because he always stands down to the coloured cobs. Dont get me wrong if they are good quality then fine and fair does but when I stood behind a pigeon toed, dishing, but ugly supposedly hairy cob covered in sweet itch and sunburn, hadnt had a brush let alone a bath and the handler was jist as scrufdy it really grated! I did ask the judge that day if it was worth persisting on showing a shetland in those classes abd was told no it was entirely pointless because they get lost amongst the cobs.

 

[Leo Walker]

BMWKIPP just how many user names have you had? This must be the 7th time you have flounced and returned. Why dont you just stick with Dunroamin so people know who they are replying to?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

OP, I've judged a fair bit at local level and i can honestly say I will always judge what is in front of me and not who is handling the horse.
I've also shows a lot at both county and local level and generaly find that local level is more honest because you don't have judges scratching producers backs for HOYS tickets etc. There are good judges and bad judges at both levels.



Sorry but I think you have unrealistic views of what should go on at shows and what to expect from judges. I also suspect that you have a case of rose tinted glasses going on.

1) this was an open class not a youngstock class, so whilst some allowances can be made for age it takes an exceptional youngster to beat a good mature pony, also it could be narrow/immature even for a youngster, 2 is an awkward age for ponies and is often why most people don't bother showing 2yr olds . As for the coloureds being placed above the odd coloureds, without seeing them then I cannot say why but from experience I've found that great strides have been made in the last decade at improving the quality of coloured cobs and you get some very very nice ones for not much money now, but with the odd coloureds the quality can be very variable and they can be very coarse, often bred for colour over substance, movement or conformation.

2) It is quite normal for part and purebred arabs to be judged in the same class as numbers for those classes can be quite low. I'm amazed that the show secretary pandered to you. with a good judge it would be completely fair as you are judged against the relevant breed/type standard. Just like mixed M&M classes where Shetlands can be judged against Section D's and Fells against connemara's.

3) The steward should have asked you to leave the ring once the line up was pulled in. In a large class it is normal to only pull in the placings and then dismiss everyone else.

4) do you watch the judge whilst you are trotting up? if so then that is probably part of your problem, if you are concentrating on watching the judge then you are not showing your horse to its best. If someone told you that the judge didn't look at you then the likelyhood is that they are exaggerating it is very very rare that a judge will not look at all.

5) if family pony went purely on size then you would be correct but family ponies do not have to be ridden by every member of the family, it is expected that a small adult could ride the pony but mainly it should be suitable for children and teenagers, not tall blokes. The pony should be mannerly enough for a small child to ride, not so wide that a child has to do the splits, not have huge movement that is likely to unseat a child or elderly relative but have a bit of spark about them so a teenager/small adult wouldnt be bored riding. I do know of a lot of Section A's regularly ridden and shown by both adults and children, I also know of some stunning shetlands that are ridden by children, small teenagers and thier lightweight mums!

6) manners is only a very very small part of the marking for inhand classes, so if the pony was of a much higher standard then everything else there then the judge would have had no option but to place it first. Inhand classes are a 50/50 split between conformation/type and movement. Manners can help you get better marks as its easier to see horses that are behaving, stand and a trot up well but they do not form a component on thier own. BTW there is no such thing as regional showing.

7) showjumping is far worse for that IME. where there are horses there are spoilt children, infact nowadays there are spoilt children running riot in most areas of modern life.

8) it is highly likely that pony club members would ride thier ponies to a higher standard and know how to show thier ponies to the best advantage, it is not necessarily biased judging. also knowing what the judge likes can help enormously, for example I know a couple of judges for ridden classes who love to see added well executed fancy bits (like walk to canters, flying changes or extended trots etc) others want to see a nice simple short show and you wont get extra for fancy bits, some are very very hot on manners and schooling in ridden classes, others will forgive a little spook or a quickly corrected wrong canter strike off, some will give a set show and if you deviate from it you get a 0 mark, some will set a show and minor deviations are ignored, knowing what a judge likes means you can tailor your show appropriately. It can also depend on the class, most will forgive a bit more in a novice class over an open class.

your entitled to your view as I am mine and my experiences in showing.

No I have NO rose coloured glasses.

My showing days were 30 years ago I will not comment on my post above as I was there, I read the schedule and what the terms were of the classes and what was said/ seen.


FYI The on the schedule - it said JUDGE WILL RIDE.

If you think a competitor (Who was a serious registered M&M competitor) who went into big shows and won and was in many a magazine, thought it was right to enter into local show for anyone who has not won anything before (terms of class) was justified to enter and then could not control his stallion and let it go in the arena where children were holding their ponies was entitled to win and you cannot see the dangers in a stallion running loose and going for some of the mares, and took 20 minutes to grab the pony, one pony was injured during the time, children petrified while their ponies were hard to hold, parents running into help them, is justified to win, I have to question your views seriously.

Enough said ps I think you should use a spell checker.


OP in answer to your post.

From my experiences back in the 80's (not now) it is often not what you know but who you know.

 

[The-Bookworm]

BMWKIPP just how many user names have you had? This must be the 7th time you have flounced and returned. Why dont you just stick with Dunroamin so people know who they are replying to?

Is this not a genuine new member then?

 

[honetpot]

Someone once put in a complaint about me in regards to the tack and turnout placing. It cost them £10 to do so.
What were they arguing over - my 7th to their 8th, both of which got you a special rosette.
I think the best part was they told me all about it after I had got changed and didn't have the horse, not realising who they were telling. Classic response from me and shocked expression from them.

I once stewarded WHP, a friend's pony was last, and she was moaning to me that the pony above her should have been disqualified for a step back, I was closer and it didn't. I pointed out to her that her pony would still have been last and it wouldn't have made its round any better. Some people just love to brag about their placing. One Championship we won we were the only pony in it. Did we win?

 

[Leo Walker]

Is this not a genuine new member then?

no, shes a well known troll who caused a huge fuss a few years back with ridiculous stories involving having triplets and dying in a crash. To be fair to her she hasnt done anything that bad for a while, but she flounced again not so long ago, and now shes back with yet another user name. The regular pattern is flounce, come back with a new user name and either some major drama or a contentious post, hang about for a bit, flounce again, repeat. It just gets a bit grating when its the same person doing the same thing over and over again.

 

[ycbm]

no, shes a well known troll who caused a huge fuss a few years back with ridiculous stories involving having triplets and dying in a crash. To be fair to her she hasnt done anything that bad for a while, but she flounced again not so long ago, and now shes back with yet another user name. The regular pattern is flounce, come back with a new user name and either some major drama or a contentious post, hang about for a bit, flounce again, repeat. It just gets a bit grating when its the same person doing the same thing over and over again.

How do you know?

 

[ycbm]

I thought it was an interesting discussion, so perhaps as long as no harm is done it doesn't matter who starts the thread? We need good discussions to keep the forum alive.


.

 

[Leo Walker]

How do you know?

Because she has posted pictures of her dogs and horse. She doesnt care who knows. I dont particularly care either way as I dont engage with her now. Other people dont realise and get sucked in.

 

[rascal]

I have given up showing my shetland in CHAPS classes because he always stands down to the coloured cobs. Dont get me wrong if they are good quality then fine and fair does but when I stood behind a pigeon toed, dishing, but ugly supposedly hairy cob covered in sweet itch and sunburn, hadnt had a brush let alone a bath and the handler was jist as scrufdy it really grated! I did ask the judge that day if it was worth persisting on showing a shetland in those classes abd was told no it was entirely pointless because they get lost amongst the cobs.

Not done coloured classes for many years, the horse i have now is black.
This was 1990s, and he had really good conformation, was well turned out.
I have also seen some coloured cobs with awful conformation win.

 

[SmallHunter]

No I don't think local showing is fixed. I have been on the other side of this and had to listen as competitors loudly complain that I knew the judge (I had never met them before in my life nor been judged by them), was a riding club member (at the time I wasn't a member of ANY riding club) or a county competitor come to pot hunt (I had never done an affiliated competition with any horse, we did go onto compete succesfully at county but that was years later when my horse became a veteran).None of those things were true but these competitor's were convinced that these were the reason's that I had won/beaten them and I had to listen to that, more often than not the reason that I would do well was because we were always correctly turned out, I did my research and made sure we were in the right classes for my horse and my horse moved nicely went well and had pretty decent conformation. So I do wish people would think before that start shouting fix because sometimes those facts you are so certain of aren't facts at all.

 

[bliss87]

Not so much on the judging as the judge was fine but when you get into the championship and the person who runs the show and makes the sashes decided who's champ? makes for peculiar Championships. Fair to say I wont be going back again

 

[BMWKIPP]

Deleted

 

[Tiddlypom]

Because she has posted pictures of her dogs and horse. She doesnt care who knows. I dont particularly care either way as I dont engage with her now. Other people dont realise and get sucked in.

I hadn't twigged til you mentioned it, but yes, there are the animals. These continual new identities are rather tedious. Just why?

 

[BMWKIPP]

No I don't think local showing is fixed. I have been on the other side of this and had to listen as competitors loudly complain that I knew the judge (I had never met them before in my life nor been judged by them), was a riding club member (at the time I wasn't a member of ANY riding club) or a county competitor come to pot hunt (I had never done an affiliated competition with any horse, we did go onto compete succesfully at county but that was years later when my horse became a veteran).None of those things were true but these competitor's were convinced that these were the reason's that I had won/beaten them and I had to listen to that, more often than not the reason that I would do well was because we were always correctly turned out, I did my research and made sure we were in the right classes for my horse and my horse moved nicely went well and had pretty decent conformation. So I do wish people would think before that start shouting fix because sometimes those facts you are so certain of aren't facts at all.

🤣🤣🤣

Shame for you. But these are 100% facts

 

[WelshD]

From my experience of showing (and it is my life) some shows are subject to favouritism and 'scratch my back' deals but the vast majority are not.

Most of the allegations of fixed shows I hear about arise because of the fundamental lack of understanding of the class, turnout and rose tinted specs about what your equine actually looks like/is.

Some examples.

Yes a show pony won the RIDING pony class, a riding pony class is not a class for any pony that is ridden. No good complaining a pro took the rosette when they have the only riding pony on the showground.
A RIDDEN pony class could be open to all types though

A horse which is not a hack, cob or a hunter isn't automatically a riding horse, it's just not that simple, a very small minority of horses are out and out show horses and there are lots out there that do not fit in to one of the types unfortunately, some do well local level regardless but don't make the step up.

On the other hand horses do well at county level but find local show judging too much of a lottery

Like it or not if you turn up in a jacket the wrong colour, a stock rather than a tie, pink stirrups, no noseband, red saddle cloth etc etc etc then you may well stand down the line and I'm sorry I have very little time for people whinging about these things as it's not difficult to do basic research and at least make a nod towards getting it right

 

[bliss87]

From my experience of showing (and it is my life) some shows are subject to favouritism and 'scratch my back' deals but the vast majority are not.

Most of the allegations of fixed shows I hear about arise because of the fundamental lack of understanding of the class, turnout and rose tinted specs about what your equine actually looks like/is.

Some examples.

Yes a show pony won the RIDING pony class, a riding pony class is not a class for any pony that is ridden. No good complaining a pro took the rosette when they have the only riding pony on the showground.
A RIDDEN pony class could be open to all types though

I was at a show a few weeks ago that had a LR Riding Pony Class and and LR m&m class. I was the only riding pony in the LR riding pony class as the m&ms had entered it aswell!!

 

[windand rain]

I was at a show a few weeks ago that had a LR Riding Pony Class and and LR m&m class. I was the only riding pony in the LR riding pony class as the m&ms had entered it aswell!!

if it didnt specifically say no M&M then it is perectly fine to enter a lead rein

 

[conniegirl]

if it didnt specifically say no M&M then it is perectly fine to enter a lead rein

no its not. Leadrein riding pony, is very different from an open leadrein class.
Riding pony = show pony so should be fine, dainty and plaited.

 

[Gloi]

no its not. Leadrein riding pony, is very different from an open leadrein class.
Riding pony = show pony so should be fine, dainty and plaited.

You can still enter, just don't expect to win.

 

[conniegirl]

You can still enter, just don't expect to win.

Depends on your judge, some will ask you to leave the ring.

Just like you can enter a hunter pony in an M&M class, but you should expect to be asked to leave or to be dumped at the bottom of the line.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Depends on your judge, some will ask you to leave the ring.

Just like you can enter a hunter pony in an M&M class, but you should expect to be asked to leave or to be dumped at the bottom of the line.

Not if its not a purebred registered pony in most cases! A lot of A's, B's, Dartmoors and Connies do Hunter pony classes but if they are good for these classes then they aren't a good example of their breed to be successful in M&M.

 

[conniegirl]

Not if its not a purebred registered pony in most cases! A lot of A's, B's, Dartmoors and Connies do Hunter pony classes but if they are good for these classes then they aren't a good example of their breed to be successful in M&M.

Most hunter ponies are partbred in my experience.

Maybe a better example would be putting an arab in the M&M class.

 

[windand rain]

At small shows I have entered my registered mountain and moorlands in an M&M cllass said registered on the schedule to be joined by coloured cobs, arabs and thoroughbreds as the organisers just want entries. Luckily on this occassion the registered ponies were in the top placings as we had a very knowledgeable judge but I have seen a plaited show pony win a Mountain and moorland class before now.