Are the days of the big horse gurus over?

Modern breeding has changed things, as I say, whether you think that constitutes "fundamental" is the only debate. Look at how even native ponies are bred now, let alone sport horses where the increase in elasticity has a cost. Horses weren't expected to last beyond 20 so there was less knowledge about long term effects, we didn't have the diagnostics so didn't know what was going wrong with horses either. Many were kept in stalls as an example, if they had known what we know, would they have kept horses in stalls?
 
TPO said:
Yip 

I've got the same issues with young horses being started regardless of if it's western or racing.

Removing the age factor from the sitting around on a horse for hours; it

The forum isn't playing ball...TBC 😅
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Circling back...

I'm sure it was @Ambers Echo who wrote about this much better than I'm going to. Basically it was about how we expect and accept so little from our horses in general. I'm sure the post was in regards to Buck Brannaman teachings.

Using the example of sitting on a horse for hours, again removing the age factor, a lot of western training is long, boring hours. In real life ranch horses will have to stand quiet for hours during a branding for example. They'll also be expected to "gee up" and work, e.g. roping and dragging calves, then go straight back to standing quietly. Even in (high level) western competitions like reined cow horse and reining the horse will have it's blood up competing and straight away come back down. A lot of reining competitors leave the arena bridless as there is a tack check and the horses are that quiet and well trained they'll walk out in calm mode without headgear.

Again @Ambers Echo wrote about it better but BB was controlling the exact pace and footfall of his horses. I've not seen it in person but in his 7 Clinics dvds the advanced training is directing footfall. This forum is a majority of English riders and some of the very basic things that are constantly struggled with just aren't issues in western and that is down to (IMO) the groundwork, and type of groundwork. The groundwork that I know of for "western" training is transferable to ridden work but, to me, there doesn't seem to be that same transference with typical english lunging for example (not referring to 2 rein/long reining work).

I don't know anything about Spanish classical training and how horses are started in that sphere but western riding originates in Spanish and there are a lot of similarities (so I've read because I don't know anything about specifically Spanish, rather than classical, to compare) when you look at the California bridle horses and the years of training that go into making a bridle horse who can carry a spade bit.

So yeah, my point, those hours of just sitting and doing nothing are invaluable teaching hours. I've been hiring an indoor arena for my "unfit not done anything since October" horse and I had a friend who is excellent at groundwork over at the weekend to help up and check in with them. We ended up being in the arena for over 2hrs. The focus was on getting my horse to focus inside the arena instead of his mind wandering to what was happening elsewhere. A lot of the time was spent with us two standing chatting and Chip having to stand on a loose line or ground tied and wait. If his mind, and then head, wandered he got a "bump" (closing of the hand on the rope - no pressure/pulling/flicking etc) to bring him back to us, he has to stay with us. The rest of the time was all in walk and getting him soft and yielding etc. All very low pressure, low stress and the likes. Really, really boring if you were on the outside watching! I know what my reaction would have been if someone posted on here that they'd dragged an unfit horse to a 2.5hr arena hire! But that's what we were doing, any my friend actually vocalised it hence it being fresh in my mind for the point about the sitting on, the long boring hours building the solid foundations where the horse is always with their person which in turn makes then rideable and able to do a job.

Of course there are good and bad in every type of riding and training and I'm definitely not saying Western = good and English = bad. There are some English Western trainers that get mentioned a bit on here and they make my blood run cold knowing what I do about their treatment of horses.

Re the "guru" status/name I think there are two types of "gurus". There are those that amass a cult like status and following and they come "gurus". Then there are the likes of Ray Hunt who just worked away doing their thing and as more people learnt from him and saw what he did then word spread and a demand for his training happened. He because a Guru by putting in the long, boring, quiet hours and let the quality of his work and expanse of his knowledge speak for itself. I could be mixing them up but I'm sure it was Buck B who spoke about all the clinics he ran initially with like 2 or 3 attendees, if that. He just kept doing what he believed in and word spread.

Like I said above Monty R and Pat P both had connections in marketing and it was from those points that both really took off. I didn't know of Pat P before that point but he was a travelling clinician just doing his thing and that's how he met Linda at an Australian clinic.

Although I'm not a fan of either I have in the past looked into what they taught/charged for and tried to figure out what they stood for. The one I know nothing about other than an immediate dislike for from watching some TV shows of his is Clinton Anderson. I have no idea how he got famous or promoted to the status that he had/has. On and off a horse he comes across horribly and with no interest in the animals welfare or wellbeing. Is it just the whole "join my club and be a part of something" that appeals to vast numbers of horse people?

Or the quick fix? Remember a load of posters appeared on here having been, or just about to be, conned out of thousands of dollars for some cure all horse trainer online course type thing? There is clearly a market for it.

A further aside, I think time is playing a trick on us. I still think 30yrs ago was 1970 not the 90s. It seems to be easier to see the difference between 1940 and 1980 than the 80s than now. Twenty and thirty years ago wasn't really that long ago and is within most of our fairly recent memories. Before 20 and 30 years ago seemed like forever ago...
 
I think 2 hours of on-off groundwork is absolutely fine, sitting on a 4 year old, or any horse, for hours on end is never going to be the best thing for them. Riding isn't the best thing for them, we can only ever mitigate the damage after all.
 
[QUOTE="sbloom, post: Many were kept in stalls as an example, if they had known what we know, would they have kept horses in stalls?
[/QUOTE]

If you are positing that keeping horses in stalls is bad from a position of never having kept horses in stalls it means that you are making assumptions without absolute knowledge.

Horses are kept in loose boxes nowadays, many people would say that knowing what we know now we shouldn't be doing that.
 
Cortez said:
[QUOTE="sbloom, post: Many were kept in stalls as an example, if they had known what we know, would they have kept horses in stalls?
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If you are positing that keeping horses in stalls is bad from a position of never having kept horses in stalls it means that you are making assumptions without absolute knowledge.

Horses are kept in loose boxes nowadays, many people would say that knowing what we know now we shouldn't be doing that.
[/QUOTE]

You're making my point, that as gradually we know better, we do better. Not sure what assumptions I'm making.
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
Sorry for doubting you Trakky14, I've just checked his website.

Add an extra £100 if you're in Scotland
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Haha no worries! I only know that because 20 years ago (showing my age!) I had him out to help load my mare, he charged about £150 then but he totally sorted her and she was never a problem to load after that!
 
sbloom said:
Modern breeding has changed things, as I say, whether you think that constitutes "fundamental" is the only debate. Look at how even native ponies are bred now, let alone sport horses where the increase in elasticity has a cost. Horses weren't expected to last beyond 20 so there was less knowledge about long term effects, we didn't have the diagnostics so didn't know what was going wrong with horses either. Many were kept in stalls as an example, if they had known what we know, would they have kept horses in stalls?
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you seem to be assuming that everything is better today, ie.,diagnostics, horse mastership, horsemanship, or that we know better, are more advanced, educated, superior.

many breeders of the past did not need a vet to point out that certain bloodlines did not know where they were putting their feet, or that certain conformations pre disposed the horse to developing unsoundness
 
sbloom said:
If you are positing that keeping horses in stalls is bad from a position of never having kept horses in stalls it means that you are making assumptions without absolute knowledge. Horses are kept in loose boxes nowadays, many people would say that knowing what we know now we shouldn't be doing that.
Click to expand...

You're making my point, that as gradually we know better, we do better. Not sure what assumptions I'm making.
[/QUOTE]

You're assuming that keeping horses in stalls is bad. It's not, as long as the horses are in very hard work (which 99.9% of horses are not, in Western Europe).
 
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sbloom said:
I think 2 hours of on-off groundwork is absolutely fine, sitting on a 4 year old, or any horse, for hours on end is never going to be the best thing for them. Riding isn't the best thing for them, we can only ever mitigate the damage after all.
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If we were doing what was best for them they'd never have a saddle, bridle or person on them!
 
This thread (and the Joe Midgley one) got me interested so I sat down to write out what I think and why. For my own benefit/clarity of thought, really. But I realise I have written a lengthy essay and decided I might as well share it in case anyone else finds this interesting too.

In my view, and in my direct experience, natural horsemanship definitely adds value. Huge value. And is very, very different in lots of ways. Despite TPO’s post saying I expresses it well, I struggle to articulate these differences. And, as I said, I generally have not bothered trying for a number of years now. Also I am sure there are other disciplines that achieve what nh achieves in a different way. I am just comparing 2 very broad 'schools' or approaches: BHS/Trad vs NH both of which I have had hundered of hours of training in/exposure to.

There are poor ‘natural horsemanship’ trainers, of course, as there are in any discipline. I am comparing good trainers in one discipline with good trainers in others.

Good BHS/trad (I can’t think of a better word) I have worked with (and still do) include 2 trainers who trained their own youngsters up to PSG, 2 Olympic riders, a BHS Level 5 and a BHS Fellow. Plus, various trainers on the Cheshire circuit with very good reputations, who I come across at camps and clinics.

On the nh side, I started off with Mark Rashid and since then have worked with Buck Brannaman, Kathleen Lindley Beckham, Guy Robertson, Tik Maynard and Joe Midgley. Plus a few rubbish people who claimed to be nh but were (in my view) totally incompetent. Or who followed a ‘method’ when the real artistry is in ‘getting’ the individual horse and working very specifically with what is in front of you. I learn a lot from them all. But the real penny drop, eye opening, mind blown moments have all – ALL – come from the nh world.

LEC is right to say horses are horses. And have always been horses. Absolutely true. And in my experience it is the top nh professionals who simply ‘get’ horses. As they were, as they are, as they always will be. It’s not about barefoot or bridleless, or Western or English, or keeping them as nature intended. It is about a deep understanding of how they think, feel behave, learn. What they like, dislike or are fearful of. What their motivations and drives are. And using that knowledge day-to-day, moment-to-moment, to shape their responses and build connections. Many people say that they do use this – again the ‘there is nothing different here’ view-point. But that has not been my experience. There are differences, at the very least, in emphasis. The main ones, as I see it it, are:

Tbc......
 
1: Understanding Horses.

As I say in the Joe Midgley thread, multiple trainers have given me lessons on Lottie. 2 have ridden her (1 regularly) and experienced that she leans on the bit, pulls like a train and always wants to go faster. They all said the same thing. They were all wrong. Joe spent 5 minutes on her and identified everything missing in her foundation. It was not shades of the same thing. It was not nuanced. It was chalk and cheese:

Everyone else - She is a stroppy mare, she is opinionated, she is hot, she needs micromanaging, you need to be 3 steps ahead of her to anticipate when she will try and take over, she needs a strong contract,firm hand.

Joe - SHE HAS NO IDEA CANTER DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY!

In my experience with my horses, the nh trainers have simply had a better understanding of horses than the others. And they put much more focus on understanding the WHY of horse behaviour, not just correcting it technically.

2: Willingness and Responsiveness

My mum’s neighbour was a BHSI and she had her horses at home. One day she offered me a ride. I have never ridden such an incredibly light and responsive horse. She told me that she was one of the first cohort of UK instructors who had gone over to the US to train with Pat Parelli, to become Parelli Associates. She parted ways with PNH fairly rapidly after gaining her accreditation, as he was so rigid on how he wanted their ‘method’ taught, but the horsemanship she learned transformed how she rode and trained. The horse I was on was incredible. An amazing blend of power and responsiveness, combined with total relaxation and willingness. Just so, so easy to ride. I am not a very good rider, but I did not need to be a good rider to ride this horse. She was push button, not in a robotic sense, but in a virtually telepathic sense. I am sure highly trained PSG horses are also wonderfully responsive, but I could not ride one side of them. I want a horse anyone can ride. And who I feel totally safe on because the responsiveness is combined with total calmness and focus. Having felt was is possible, that is what I want now. Mutliple 'school-master' lessons on even very 'good' horses have given me nothing even approaching the feel of that horse.

3: Softness/Lightness

I’ve asked many instructors to show me physically how much pressure they have in the rein as the baseline for their ‘secure elastic contact’. It varies a bit, but is usually around 3/10. The nh trainers I have asked, have baseline at about 0.5. They say that the horse gets numb to baseline, so why throw away 30% of your communication ability by numbing the horse to that much pressure. I like horses to feel light in the hand. I don’t like riding with a persistently heavy (or firm) contact.

4: Communication

I have never had any ‘technical’ instruction from any nh trainer. Nothing about seat, shoulders, alignment, balance. It all appears to be about timing and feel. Timing the cues and the releases at the right time. For example, only ever cueing when the foot you are trying to influence is leaving the ground. If you cue when the horse has committed to a move or when the foot is planted, then you ‘trip’ the horse up. He can’t actually move the way you want and gets annoyed. Timing a cue – say a lateral step - at the right time feels like dancing. This is quite advanced in the non-nh world and totally foundational in the nh one.

Getting the release right rewards the ‘try’ and builds a willing partner, motivated to problem solve and learn. They understand they will get a release when they get it right, so they search for the ‘right’ answer. This is just not done in English riding to anything like the degree it is in nh. And this was a huge barrier for Lottie’s canter. She was not looking for a release. She had no idea cantering softly was even a ‘thing’. I have had many lessons where the horse just gets no release at all, bar a short walk break midway through. This is a very different way of riding. Lottie’s canter has improved beyond all recognition, literally overnight, because I found a way (via releases) to communicate with her.

Body language, intent and energy are also used far more at even basic/beginner levels. It is not something used when you get advanced but is foundational.

Tbc.....
 
5: Expectations.

In ranch work, a horse who needs micromanaging is useless. A horse who does not instantly stop, change direction, stand still, take instruction - all one handed - is no use to a cowboy who needs a hand free for roping, and whose horses have to do as they are told instantly. Thousands of perfectly ordinary horses have extremely high levels of responsiveness and obedience that are just taken for granted.

And yet people here- even those competing to a pretty high level - struggle to get their horses to do the simplest things. I see that at BS shows: horses who nap, rear, need to be led into the arena. Horses who jog, paw, won’t stand still etc.

I would need people far more knowledgeable than me to trace the history, but as I understand it, most ranch hands were tough on horses to get the job done, but a few found a way to achieve those levels of obedience and responsiveness without the need for force and fear. Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt etc. Their approaches were ignored or criticized by most, but piqued the interest of a few, and so these approaches slowly spread. (See point 6 – curiosity!)

But back to expectation, Buck Brannaman taught me the value of being extremely particular. He is someone who started out just doing his thing (like Ray Hunt). In fact, my sharer is from North Carolina and trained with him before he was anybody. He has got too big, I think. So I would not go back to him. He has lost that personal connection – at least at his huge demos. And I don’t think DVDs work well for learning, as again you are back to a formulaic method as opposed to working with what you have in front of you.

But I learnt a lot from my 3 days at Aintree. Especially around expectations. At one point in the clinic he bellowed ‘your horse is running away with you and you don’t care because she is doing it in walk. But it is UNACCEPTABLE’ at me. Shortly after that clinic I took Amber to camp at Eland Lodge. On day 1 there was a hack around the estate. Amber jogged all the way home and so when we got back to the field next to the rest area with all the stables, I decided to ride some simple serpentine patterns in walk (mini figure 8s), rather than put her away. Wanting her to listen to me rather than ignore me. The other horses went through the gap in the hedge into the rest area, and I turned Amber away from the gap. She reared vertical. I pulled her down and started the serpentine round 2 clumps of grass. Every time we headed in the direction of the gap, she sped up. Every time I tried to turn her away again, she napped. She reared 2-3 times then that stopped but the speeding up continued. She had a very simply job: walk ONE small serpentine round 2 clumps of grass without speeding up, napping or falling in/out. Just one. It took 45 minutes. But she did in the end stay soft and obedient and we ended there. I never had a problem with napping again. She never reared again either.

I have no idea whether what we did made a difference to her mindset, but it clarified my own! I do not want to tolerate a horse not listening to me taking over. Sure, at times I will give them the rein and let them do what they want (within reason)- So called ‘passenger rides’. But I choose when to allow that, and I want to be able to pick up the rein get attentive responsiveness again, anytime I choose. I am nowhere near that yet with Lottie but this is what I am after.

We expect far too little of our horses in my view. Horses that won’t let you mount. Horses that won’t load, lead politely, stand still, or allow you to treat them as horse-as-sofa. I read in Tik’s book that a famous German dressage trainer starts all his newly backed, young horses by leading them out, getting on, smoking a cigarette while they stand still. Getting off. Every day for 2 weeks before any other work starts. This is formulaic again. But there is a value in these simple expectations.

6: Curiosity

The day I first picked up Rashid’s Considering the Horse, I was hooked. This was different. And no matter how many people told me it was common sense or money for old rope, I perceived a clear difference. And still do. I can watch Joe or others doing what looks like ‘nothing much’ and am intrigued by the rich communication and learning happening during that ‘nothing much’. And yet the beauty of what is being achieved seems to pass many, many people by completely. There seems to be a refusal to consider that there is learning on offer.

Even when the differences are startling, there can be a marked lack of interest! I took Lottie to a jumping lesson the other day for the first time since the last Joe lesson, excited to demo her new and improved canter. The instructor knows us very well, and the issue has always been Lottie’s take hold and charge tendencies.

I warmed up on a long rein in a lovely steady canter, pleased that Lottie was remembering this new way of going, despite a large arena, away from home, the other horses and a course of jumps up.

“Shorten your reins and move that canter on” the RI called. ‘She needs more oomph than that’.

Nothing about ‘what on earth has happened to your horse and HOW?’!!

I laughed and said can I please just enjoy the miracle of a chilled Lottie cantering on a loose rein for a bit. My RI said, “well if you must, but then shorten your reins and get a better canter for jumping”. No questions, no curiosity, no interest in what has changed! I don’t mind at all. I just think it’s weird. Lottie was fab jumping by the way. These changes are REAL.

A lack of curiosity is also evident when I help people catch or load. Some people get annoyed with their horse. Literally. They say things like ‘oh he was showing me up then’. Or they dismiss it as ‘I guess he was ready to come in’ or ‘I guess he got bored and decided to load’. Or they attribute it to a ‘knack’ or ‘way’ with horses. This just means they don’t have to bother learning how to do it, and don’t need to accept that they have a skill gap. Again, I don’t mind, I just think it’s odd. When Tik Maynard took hold of Amber and achieved something with her I couldn’t, I was desperate to understand what he had done and how I would do it too. And I am now experiencing the same hunger for understanding and learning when Joe works Lottie. Even if all he is doing is walling a small circle from the ground.

Tik shows that curiosity in his book about being a working pupil. He wanted to learn from as many people as he could, and though he started with very traditional/classical riders, he found his way to nh ones, and immediately saw that they added something new. So he embraced that approach. It is clear that a lot of the top riders also recognise the value in these approaches, and blend them with whatever else they are doing.

Tbc.....
 
7: Groundwork

Nh trainers all use this extensively at all levels and all ages. Other approaches focus on lunging, or long reining but that is about it. If Lottie comes out explosive, I used to be advised to lunge for 20 minutes. Nh trainers say that’s ridiculous. I need to get her mind, not just tire her out. Especially for a competition horse when you don’t want to knock 5% off their performance ability through ‘taking the edge off’. You want 100% available to you. So now I do a few minutes of ground work before I get on, if I feel I need to. To connect with her mentally and ensure she is ‘with’ me.

8: I think horses prefer it

Amber was perfectly willing and obedient for Kathleen and Tik at both their clinics, when she struggled to understand something and they patiently, persistently, expained it. But I have seen several BHS/Pro riders just increase pressure when she failed to understand something and she would escalate. Even when they suceeded (in their own terms) in gaining compliance she always looked p1ssed off and it required a fight. (I kept doubting my ability so asked people to school her). 3 trainers told me she was a 'pro's horse' because she just would not tolerate being pushed around. But she was very amenable when managed the 'nh' way.

Lottie’s demeanor has changed since I have started regular lesson with Joe. She is softer, more willing, happier to just ‘hang out’ with me in the field. After a lot of head scratching over diet/girthiness etc, she is no longer showing any negativity about being tacked up. She whickers and comes over in the field to be caught. It seems obvious to me that if it feels so much nicer for the rider, then surely the horse feels the same way.

Milk and cookies to anyone who has actually got to the end of all that :D :D
 
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TPO said:
Pfft @Ambers Echo echo, so much for struggling to articulate your thoughts! 👏

Section no.5 is nail on head IMO, and the first paragraph of section 6 is spot on too
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I've spent 20 years thinking about it! But have never found a way to really clarify my own thoughts, let alone communicate them. This is my brain on a page today. It will be different in another 20... :p
 
Ambers Echo said:
Timing a cue – say a lateral step - at the right time feels like dancing. This is quite advanced in the non-nh world and totally foundational in the nh one.
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This is not true. I too am a Rashid student but I learned to ride at standard BHS riding schools.
Leg yield in walk is one of the basic tasks set in ones initial lessons at any BHS school and that depends entirely on cueing at the right moment.
Learning to rise in trot on the correct diagonal is a basic early lesson dependent on recognising footfall. Cantering on the correct lead on the straight also depends on timing the cue
 
Do I get milk and cookies?

Seriously, that was very well articulated.

I grew up with 'horsemanship' since that was what my barn in CO was doing in the 90s. Bought my first horse, a 10-year old QH mare who had been hauled around H/J courses with traditional English riding methods, and she was pretty grumpy and p1ssed off by life. I was a clueless 13 year old. As you can imagine, this was a bit of a mess. But a trainer who was working on a certification as a TTEAM trainer (Linda Tellington-Jones...good stuff... look it up) took us under her wing, and there were other trainers around who had worked with Mark and Buck before they became mega-names. That mare eventually transformed into a willing, happy partner, and those techniques became just how I work with horses.

A couple weeks before Hermosa foaled - before I knew she was pregnant :rolleyes: - I had a classical trainer come out to give us a groundwork lesson. I'd been doing 'my' groundwork with her up to that point, but she was starting to play up and get tricky (in hindsight, being heavily pregnant may have had something to do with this!!). Anyway, trainer said that I needed to lose all these old techniques I had and learn the classical ones, from scratch. She said they were mutually exclusive. I was open to the idea. I mean, learning piaffe in hand would be pretty awesome. But then foal happened, and once we got through the freaked-out-teen-mom stage, I reverted back to my NH-type stuff because it was easy and I was good at it. And it worked, once all the crazy hormones had subsided. The horse made steady progress and I was reluctant to bring the trad/classical trainers back in, because introducing her to a new system when she was gaining a pretty solid, comfortable understanding of my original one seemed like needless stress.

I do miss having easy access to these people. I occasionally ask about trainers on here because I have been doing this on my own for a long time, ever since I moved to the UK, with the exception of one Mark Rashid clinic in 2016. Nobody else at my current barn or any previous barn does it, and they all think I'm a bit nuts. Starting the youngster in a Western hackamore has not divested anyone of this notion. It would be really nice and helpful to have a lesson with someone like Joe or Tik or Mark, who's on that wavelength. You can learn so much by watching the masters work, in person, and getting input on how to improve your work with your horse in invaluable. B1tch, moan, b1tch, moan.
 
You're assuming that keeping horses in stalls is bad. It's not, as long as the horses are in very hard work (which 99.9% of horses are not, in Western Europe).
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I'm certainly assuming that tying horses by the head in a way that allows them to lie down and stand up but otherwise not to move is definitely bad if that is done for more than a few hours during a day when they are also working several hours on and off.

Nobody will ever convince me that stalls are OK for overnight.
.
 
We know that people all learn differently so will respond better to different approaches. Would it be unreasonable to expect the same of horses?

I accept there are some basics of nature which will prevail but maybe some horses just respond better to some techniques. Add to that the teacher is generally a human who will also have strengths and weaknesses.
 
OrangeAndLemon said:
We know that people all learn differently so will respond better to different approaches. Would it be unreasonable to expect the same of horses?



I accept there are some basics of nature which will prevail but maybe some horses just respond better to some techniques. Add to that the teacher is generally a human who will also have strengths and weaknesses.
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Surely everyone learns better being taught by someone who speaks their language?

AE perfectly details the disconnect between a "NH" trainer communicating with her horse via the "traditional" trainers (the good vs good in each sphere)
 
Cortez said:
You're making my point, that as gradually we know better, we do better. Not sure what assumptions I'm making.
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You're assuming that keeping horses in stalls is bad. It's not, as long as the horses are in very hard work (which 99.9% of horses are not, in Western Europe).
[/QUOTE]

I don't see how anyone can think keeping horses in stalls is good. Way beyond me to leave a horse basically tied so it can only stand or lie down in one position. No idea why it would be good for horses in very hard work.. If I have a horse who is working I want him moving around as much as possible for the rest of his day and night not standing or lying in one place.

So he works and then is tied in one place for the rest of the time. When does he get time to move on his own, relax, socialise with his mates, groom other horses. I am not even sure if stalled presumably with a log he can twist his head around to scratch his own side. I don't see from the size of stalls how large horses can lie flat out.

I don't assume keeping horses in stalls is bad I believe it is simply cruel. May have been acceptable by earlier standards but definitely not by today's. He simply has no freedom at all.
 
paddy555 said:
I don't see how anyone can think keeping horses in stalls is good. Way beyond me to leave a horse basically tied so it can only stand or lie down in one position. No idea why it would be good for horses in very hard work.. If I have a horse who is working I want him moving around as much as possible for the rest of his day and night not standing or lying in one place.

So he works and then is tied in one place for the rest of the time. When does he get time to move on his own, relax, socialise with his mates, groom other horses. I am not even sure if stalled presumably with a log he can twist his head around to scratch his own side. I don't see from the size of stalls how large horses can lie flat out.

I don't assume keeping horses in stalls is bad I believe it is simply cruel. May have been acceptable by earlier standards but definitely not by today's. He simply has no freedom at all.
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Yes they can scratch and they usually have other horses very close by, so in a way they can possibly see the other horses better and "socialize" more than in a loose box.
The riding school I rode at about 25 years ago had the small horses in stalls, they were very settled and they didn't seem worst off than those in loose boxes. This riding school also had a pasture and the horses would sometimes go out.
Personally, I would not want my horses in stalls but I would not want them shut in a stable either.
 
I’m going to presume that there aren’t many people on here who have first hand experience of keeping horses in stalls? I always find that it’s best not to make assumptions about things that one doesn’t know anything about. Whilst stalls wouldn’t be my first preference, I have worked at places that used them and, like the poster above, didn’t find the horses any less happy or sound than others kept in loose boxes. And yes, they also got turned out on days off, laid down perfectly contentedly and all that sort of stuff. These were a mixture of carriage horses, trekking ponies and heavy work horses, all in hard slow work. Just because something is different doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad.
 
going back many years i`ve seen lots in stalls, well worked, well fed, they seemed content, strict routines and turnout when not being used.

personally my preference is for 24 7 turnout with shelters, loose boxes available if needed
 
Skib said:
This is not true. I too am a Rashid student but I learned to ride at standard BHS riding schools.
Leg yield in walk is one of the basic tasks set in ones initial lessons at any BHS school and that depends entirely on cueing at the right moment.
Learning to rise in trot on the correct diagonal is a basic early lesson dependent on recognising footfall. Cantering on the correct lead on the straight also depends on timing the cue
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But it's beyond that, it's about timing aids for engagement etc. I personally think flow and balance is much more important than timing of aids but a system such as the Ritter Dressage programme that focuses on timing of aids is much more than the examples you've mentioned. Timing in leg yield.is the only one that come close but that's easy compared to knowing when each leg is on the ground in all paces at all times.
 
Of course timing and feel matter in any discipline. I did not say it didn't. I was tallking about the relative emphasis on communication via timing, feel, body language, energy, intent, releases versus the emphasis on technique/technical aspects of riding.

In my standard lessons, I get a lot of instruction on technique and little to none on communication. In my nh lessons it is the reverse pattern. I'm not even saying one is better than the other. I work hard at both. I just personally prefer the focus on connection/communucation from day 1, with any horse, in the nh world. I'm doing this work with Felix already. He got it instantly. Joe came to the yard to work with an older horse and did the exercises we did with Felix and the horse was totally oblivious. He just had not been trained in a way that focused on connection and communication so was dull and unresponsive to anything other than obvious big cues.
 
Cortez said:
I’m going to presume that there aren’t many people on here who have first hand experience of keeping horses in stalls? I always find that it’s best not to make assumptions about things that one doesn’t know anything about. Whilst stalls wouldn’t be my first preference, I have worked at places that used them and, like the poster above, didn’t find the horses any less happy or sound than others kept in loose boxes. And yes, they also got turned out on days off, laid down perfectly contentedly and all that sort of stuff. These were a mixture of carriage horses, trekking ponies and heavy work horses, all in hard slow work. Just because something is different doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad.
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I have experience of a continental riding school which kept the horses in stalls.

I couldn't under any circumstances support the use of a system that restrains horses by the head when they are not being worked unless they were turned out for the night. A horse can't even lay flat out in stalls without risking hitting its head if it moves when it's dreaming. That's if it can lay flat out at all, the stalls I've seen have not been wide enough, you would need at least 7 feet for a 16 hand horse.

There is no other animal we would accept being kept tied up in that way, even cow stalls are very rarely seen in the UK these days.
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You don't need to experience something directly to instinctively recognise that it is likely to be harmful/stressful. But in the case of tie stalls, the research has been done and is quite conclusive. If hardly suprising.

Comparing tie stalls with less restrictive housing options (with 7 hours daily turn out), stall tied horses had the highest levels of stress hormone (cortisol) and the lowest levels of rest.

 
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