Are the days of the big horse gurus over?

Ambers Echo said:
You don't need to experience something directly to instinctively recognise that it is likely to be harmful/stressful. But in the case of tie stalls, the research has been done and is quite conclusive. If hardly suprising.

Comparing tie stalls with less restrictive housing options (with 7 hours daily turn out), stall tied horses had the highest levels of stress hormone (cortisol) and the lowest levels of rest.

Click to expand...

The study is far too small and pretty flawed, but I liked to agree with your first sentence.
 
Yes it is is small but I think higher levels of cortisol is compelling. If a vet told me that Lottie (n=1) had elevated cortisol I would take steps to reduce her stress.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TPO
Cortez said:
I’m going to presume that there aren’t many people on here who have first hand experience of keeping horses in stalls? I always find that it’s best not to make assumptions about things that one doesn’t know anything about. Whilst stalls wouldn’t be my first preference, I have worked at places that used them and, like the poster above, didn’t find the horses any less happy or sound than others kept in loose boxes. And yes, they also got turned out on days off, laid down perfectly contentedly and all that sort of stuff. These were a mixture of carriage horses, trekking ponies and heavy work horses, all in hard slow work. Just because something is different doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad.
Click to expand...

no I don't havefirst hand experience of stall keeping. However I do have a fair amount of knowledge of horses and of keeping them so I am able to extrapolate that knowledge into various methods. I have no experience of keeping horses on a proper permanent track system but I can work out that it is probably a pretty good way of keeping horses.

I also have experience of trekking ponies. We had knocking on 100 where I worked. 5pm it was back to the field where they did what they wanted until 7am the next day. The thought of stalling those horses after a days work many carrying not so brilliant riders appalls me.

I think you could be confusing the word "happy" with controlled, obedient, resigned, well behaved and haven't any choice in the matter.

Some loose boxes aren't that brilliant and are still a restrictive method of horse keeping although many have no choice in livery however the important word is in the description ie loose. They can walk, look over the door, walk to the back corner to eat hay, lie flat.
 
Though I appreciate everyone is on the NH bus here, I do think most of the world class trainers in Olympic sports have horsemanship by the spade, sometimes they are not very good at articulating it. The issue is people go to see trainers about the Olympic sports not about furthering their horsemanship. This is why I think NH probably works well as people have made a conscious effort to be trained in what I consider fundamental basics. Standing still, leading well etc. I have high expectations of my horses behaviour on the ground and most professionals need easy horses to handle as they are shuttling round the world. It’s low level amateurs IMO who have the horses with the worst manners.

I was at a world class trainers last week shadowing for the day. I watched world class riders on world class horses and ended up having a very interesting discussion about pressure. Far too many riders put their horse under pressure and in xc that will kill you. The horse should never be under pressure approaching a jump. How much is that ever discussed? I don’t think pressure and release is discussed enough in sport.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes it is is small but I think higher levels of cortisol is compelling. If a vet told me that Lottie (n=1) had elevated cortisol I would take steps to reduce her stress.
Click to expand...

But they didn't give the horses sufficient time to become accustomed to the situation. I would expect stress levels to drop over time. These studies fall short, for me, time and again on that and on the small sample size.

But no research would make me house a horse tied by its neck.

I have left one stables partly because they were using huge banks to restrict the horses movement and make it easier to muck out.
.
 
Ambers Echo said:
You don't need to experience something directly to instinctively recognise that it is likely to be harmful/stressful. But in the case of tie stalls, the research has been done and is quite conclusive. If hardly suprising.

Comparing tie stalls with less restrictive housing options (with 7 hours daily turn out), stall tied horses had the highest levels of stress hormone (cortisol) and the lowest levels of rest.

Click to expand...

I haven't read your study. I don't need to because, as you say in your first para I am able (with a knowledge of horses) to be able to work it out for myself. It's not that difficult. :):)
 
LEC said:
Though I appreciate everyone is on the NH bus here, I do think most of the world class trainers in Olympic sports have horsemanship by the spade, sometimes they are not very good at articulating it. The issue is people go to see trainers about the Olympic sports not about furthering their horsemanship. This is why I think NH probably works well as people have made a conscious effort to be trained in what I consider fundamental basics. Standing still, leading well etc. I have high expectations of my horses behaviour on the ground and most professionals need easy horses to handle as they are shuttling round the world. It’s low level amateurs IMO who have the horses with the worst manners.

I was at a world class trainers last week shadowing for the day. I watched world class riders on world class horses and ended up having a very interesting discussion about pressure. Far too many riders put their horse under pressure and in xc that will kill you. The horse should never be under pressure approaching a jump. How much is that ever discussed? I don’t think pressure and release is discussed enough in sport.
Click to expand...

I agree! So wouldn't it be great if those fundemental basics were actually taught as standard. Both on the gorund and under saddle. So people did not have to specifically seek this out, elsewhere. Bear in mind that those amateurs with ill mannered horses have probably clocked up many hundred of hours of instruction by the time they are out competing and demonstrating their horse's poor foundations.

Pressure/release is discussed ALL THE TIME in nh. It is peole riding in more trad ways that are far more likely to keep their horses under pressure all the time and rarely release.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I agree! So wouldn't it be great if those fundemental basics were actually taught as standard. Both on the gorund and under saddle. So people did not have to specifically seek this out, elsewhere. Bear in mind that those amateurs with ill mannered horses have probably clocked up many hundred of hours of instruction by the time they are out competing and demonstrating their horse's poor foundations.

Pressure/release is discussed ALL THE TIME in nh. It is peole riding in more trad ways that are far more likely to keep their horses under pressure all the time and rarely release.
Click to expand...

I watched a very experienced 5* rider who does have a lot of horse falls. The horse was an amazing jumping horse. So much ability but where the rider pressed 3 strides out every time the horse flicked its ears back. This means it’s looking back to the rider and not taking responsibility for the jump. Most of the session was spent with trying to get this rider to ride with no pressure. Set the horse up correctly on the pattern it needs to jump the question successfully and then maintain. The problem is we think of pressure as very black and white where actually there are huge shades of grey. It’s not that there will be no pressure as the horse does need to stay between hand and leg but it’s that you can’t keep applying strong/increasing pressure particularly at the wrong time.

This article summed it up quite nicely -https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02mUyX7SaMyx14Z9Ygm7YoA6eKGL6CsSinj52k69PHLxe14o7epYJbsUuyZTB2iJzVl&id=100064515560094
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes it is is small but I think higher levels of cortisol is compelling. If a vet told me that Lottie (n=1) had elevated cortisol I would take steps to reduce her stress.
Click to expand...

Ok, so to take your example, if your vet told you that Lottie had elevated cortisol because she was kept at night in a loose box, then you would conclude that all horses are too stressed to be ever kept in a loose box?
 
LEC said:
I watched a very experienced 5* rider who does have a lot of horse falls. The horse was an amazing jumping horse. So much ability but where the rider pressed 3 strides out every time the horse flicked its ears back. This means it’s looking back to the rider and not taking responsibility for the jump. Most of the session was spent with trying to get this rider to ride with no pressure. Set the horse up correctly on the pattern it needs to jump the question successfully and then maintain. The problem is we think of pressure as very black and white where actually there are huge shades of grey. It’s not that there will be no pressure as the horse does need to stay between hand and leg but it’s that you can’t keep applying strong/increasing pressure particularly at the wrong time.

This article summed it up quite nicely -https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02mUyX7SaMyx14Z9Ygm7YoA6eKGL6CsSinj52k69PHLxe14o7epYJbsUuyZTB2iJzVl&id=100064515560094
Click to expand...
I have seen this when watching steeplechasing all too often. Usually coming to the last fence you see a jockey get after his horse, horse loses concentration and makes a mess of the fence, sometimes falling.
 
Ambers Echo said:
It is peole riding in more trad ways that are far more likely to keep their horses under pressure all the time and rarely release.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you mean people riding badly in more trad ways? Proper riding is all about the release, although I do find that the more BHS-y (shall we say) trained riders have an absolute death grip on the reins, and with the legs too.
 
paddy555 said:
no I don't havefirst hand experience of stall keeping. However I do have a fair amount of knowledge of horses and of keeping them so I am able to extrapolate that knowledge into various methods. I have no experience of keeping horses on a proper permanent track system but I can work out that it is probably a pretty good way of keeping horses.

I also have experience of trekking ponies. We had knocking on 100 where I worked. 5pm it was back to the field where they did what they wanted until 7am the next day. The thought of stalling those horses after a days work many carrying not so brilliant riders appalls me.

I think you could be confusing the word "happy" with controlled, obedient, resigned, well behaved and haven't any choice in the matter.

Some loose boxes aren't that brilliant and are still a restrictive method of horse keeping although many have no choice in livery however the important word is in the description ie loose. They can walk, look over the door, walk to the back corner to eat hay, lie flat.
Click to expand...

Extrapolate away, but don't assume that there is only one way of doing things, and that the english way is always best please. Note that I do not keep my horses in stalls, but I also don't condemn out of hand people who do because I have experienced it, and the horses were perfectly happy, sound, normally behaved, etc. (and no, I was not confused at the time) in that system. I have also kept horses in a track system, which was not the paradise it is touted as, and I would no longer keep horses that way either.
 
Cortez said:
Extrapolate away, but don't assume that there is only one way of doing things, and that the english way is always best please. Note that I do not keep my horses in stalls, but I also don't condemn out of hand people who do because I have experienced it, and the horses were perfectly happy, sound, normally behaved, etc. (and no, I was not confused at the time) in that system. I have also kept horses in a track system, which was not the paradise it is touted as, and I would no longer keep horses that way either.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity (slightly diverting the thread...sorry!), what didn't you like about the track system? I have no real world experience of one, but it sounds like a clever, healthy way of keeping horses, especially if you don't have vast amounts of land. Though in this country, you probably need vast amounts of money to install enough hard standing, otherwise it would become a WW1 trench.

LEC said:
I watched a very experienced 5* rider who does have a lot of horse falls. The horse was an amazing jumping horse. So much ability but where the rider pressed 3 strides out every time the horse flicked its ears back. This means it’s looking back to the rider and not taking responsibility for the jump. Most of the session was spent with trying to get this rider to ride with no pressure. Set the horse up correctly on the pattern it needs to jump the question successfully and then maintain. The problem is we think of pressure as very black and white where actually there are huge shades of grey. It’s not that there will be no pressure as the horse does need to stay between hand and leg but it’s that you can’t keep applying strong/increasing pressure particularly at the wrong time.

This article summed it up quite nicely -https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02mUyX7SaMyx14Z9Ygm7YoA6eKGL6CsSinj52k69PHLxe14o7epYJbsUuyZTB2iJzVl&id=100064515560094
Click to expand...

I have heard Carl Hester talking about releasing and giving and rewarding, but for whatever reason, not very much of this filters down to amateur levels. In my experience, people learning the English disciplines with your average BHS-schooled trainer are taught to hold the front end and drive the horse up into the bridle with the leg. There is little to no talk of release/reward, thus you see tons of people riding around, holding their horse's heads down with a firm contact.
 
Caol Ila said:
In my experience, people learning the English disciplines with your average BHS-schooled trainer are taught to hold the front end and drive the horse up into the bridle with the leg. There is little to no talk of release/reward, thus you see tons of people riding around, holding their horse's heads down with a firm contact.
Click to expand...
I went to two BHS schools to learn to ride. I was never taught this. I was never taught contact nor outline.
 
Caol Ila said:
Out of curiosity (slightly diverting the thread...sorry!), what didn't you like about the track system? I have no real world experience of one, but it sounds like a clever, healthy way of keeping horses, especially if you don't have vast amounts of land. Though in this country, you probably need vast amounts of money to install enough hard standing, otherwise it would become a WW1 trench.
It became a WWI trench..........and the horses were categorically bored, they obviously hadn't read the theory and far from moving along the track between hay stations they just stood around looking aggrieved. For my horses, they were more comfortable in a strip grazing system.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Cortez said:
Extrapolate away, but don't assume that there is only one way of doing things, and that the english way is always best please. Note that I do not keep my horses in stalls, but I also don't condemn out of hand people who do because I have experienced it, and the horses were perfectly happy, sound, normally behaved, etc. (and no, I was not confused at the time) in that system. I have also kept horses in a track system, which was not the paradise it is touted as, and I would no longer keep horses that way either.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the English way is nor what I guess you are meaning the continental way is. I only consider the horse way. I came from a very unhorsey family so I was not lumbered by any particular way. There are always several ways of doing things however to me tying a horse up for hours on end and especially overnight so it can only walk a couple of strides forward or back and cannot lie flat is not one of them. I can see that from the human management POV it has benefits but sadly not from the horse's POV

I did used to keep horses in stables overnight but over 20 years ago as I learnt more I realised that was unacceptable so things changed to improve their lives and I saw improvements in their happiness with a much less restricted lifestyle.
 
Caol Ila said:
Out of curiosity (slightly diverting the thread...sorry!), what didn't you like about the track system? I have no real world experience of one, but it sounds like a clever, healthy way of keeping horses, especially if you don't have vast amounts of land. Though in this country, you probably need vast amounts of money to install enough hard standing, otherwise it would become a WW1 trench.
Click to expand...

I cannot copy Cortez's reply but the problem with track systems is when they are poorly set up and become like a WW1 trench. In the UK climate they need areas of hard track, rolling areas and interesting terrain and things along the way to encourage them to "live" on the track rather than just congregate miserably in one spot as bit like a group of field horses in wet and mud. That of course needs some money but more importantly planning permission.

I don't have a proper track system but I have several hard surfaces where they can wander at night in addition to their stables which are sort of fenced as horse walkways. They use them a lot. I have one who walks up our front garden concrete path up to the rest of his hard wandering track and back. I hear him everytime he does it which is very many times during the night. Doesn't help with my sleep but it is nice to hear him moving. I think he was probably a stabled type of horse when he came and it a took a while for him to realise what he was supposed to do but once he realised he loved it.

If you look up Rockely, I think Forage plus have one and several of the retirement/track livery places have nice tracks there seem to be happy horses if they are well set up.
 
Forageplus went more Equicentral as it trashed her wet Welsh fields, and she had been trying to manage with reduced rather than no grass. If horses are standing around on a track system then it's been ill thought through, or poorly introduced etc. I'm sure there are some horses that don't take to them, but I've yet to see that happen.

Movement is medicine, horses may be "happy" in stalls but we know it's acclimatisation/desensitisation, it's another step away from a more natural and intrinsically healthy life.
 
paddy555 said:
I cannot copy Cortez's reply but the problem with track systems is when they are poorly set up and become like a WW1 trench. In the UK climate they need areas of hard track, rolling areas and interesting terrain and things along the way to encourage them to "live" on the track rather than just congregate miserably in one spot as bit like a group of field horses in wet and mud. That of course needs some money but more importantly planning permission.

I don't have a proper track system but I have several hard surfaces where they can wander at night in addition to their stables which are sort of fenced as horse walkways. They use them a lot. I have one who walks up our front garden concrete path up to the rest of his hard wandering track and back. I hear him everytime he does it which is very many times during the night. Doesn't help with my sleep but it is nice to hear him moving. I think he was probably a stabled type of horse when he came and it a took a while for him to realise what he was supposed to do but once he realised he loved it.

If you look up Rockely, I think Forage plus have one and several of the retirement/track livery places have nice tracks there seem to be happy horses if they are well set up.
Click to expand...

The ease of setting one up must also depend on where you are in the UK. It's probably more straightforward to make a track system in Lincolnshire than in the West of Scotland, the former being much drier.

There's one yard which does it about 40 minutes from me. I did not get as far as viewing it, because the YO had rules which I fundamentally disagreed with, like a line in the contract which stated that you must try herbs, essential oils, and other alternative therapies before, ya know, calling the vet. Unless it was actually a life-threatening emergency. Then the vet's alright. Nope, nope, and some more nope.
 
Last edited:
I fully agree that the natural place for a horse is not in any kind of confinement, however it is not possible for a domesticated horse to live naturally, even less so if it is also ridden or otherwise worked. Stables are primarily for our convenience, however they also used to serve the purpose of enabling the hard working horse to rest completely and to eat a higher energy diet than afforded by grass alone. This purpose is nowadays not needed for the vast majority of horses in this part of the world, but in many other places where horses work incredibly hard stabling, or stalling, is vital.
 
I have been following a horse trainer in South Dakota on Facebook (ENCK Training), who seems to me to combine the best of the NH-type of approach with the practicalities of getting a working ranch horse at the end of it. I don't ride western, and am not interested from that point of view, just the good down-to-earth, practical and sensitive horsemanship.
If I had the money and the time (and a husband that wouldn't mind!) I would love to go out there and do one of their live-in week long training camps - always loved the idea of living the cowboy life!
 
Bluewaves said:
Michael Peace just seems to have a lovely, mannerly, effective way about him when i watch his videoa. Please don’t anyone now who knows him tell me terrible things about him. It will break my heart.
Click to expand...
I had Michael Peace out for a difficult loader and he was really great. Couldn't recommend him enough.
 
I've used various techniques from MR, Richard Maxwell, Kelly Marks and Linda and Pat over the years. All on real arsehole (to put it very simply) horses, and I had really good results. Like most things, you don't have to go in with an all or nothing attitude. I took the bits that made sense to me and left out the bits that didn't.
 
Cortez said:
Perhaps you mean people riding badly in more trad ways? Proper riding is all about the release, although I do find that the more BHS-y (shall we say) trained riders have an absolute death grip on the reins, and with the legs too.
Click to expand...

In many ways I agree that there is just good and bad horsemanship in all areas. But I also feel that you can get very far along competitively, with excellent technical skills and a good horse. So a lot of 'successful' riders and trainers do not actually have good horsmanship skills, in my view. I am changign what I want in a trainer and the underlhing philosophy is now first, not an afterthought.
 
Interesting you should say that because a friend of mine sent her horse to MP and he wouldn't let her watch him working her horse.
 
EMSPony - sounds like you have a grudge to bear. None of what I know about Michael Peace fits your descriptions. He is a properly evolved horseman.
 
people are still doing parelli and are attending clinics and lessons. My previous yard had a few people really into parelli with their very young horses under 3 years old and some of got theses parelli trainers to break their horses for them. So unfortunately it still extremely popular I just wish people would do the researched into horse behaviour and see the problem with these training methods.
 
Cortez said:
I fully agree that the natural place for a horse is not in any kind of confinement, however it is not possible for a domesticated horse to live naturally, even less so if it is also ridden or otherwise worked. Stables are primarily for our convenience, however they also used to serve the purpose of enabling the hard working horse to rest completely and to eat a higher energy diet than afforded by grass alone. This purpose is nowadays not needed for the vast majority of horses in this part of the world, but in many other places where horses work incredibly hard stabling, or stalling, is vital.
Click to expand...

Really, some trainers race horses from the field. I’ve known horses that live out go round badminton. Both pretty hard w

As long as you have a way to pen / corral them to individually feed I don’t see why need stabling.

Can supplement with high protein hay / Haylage in field as easily as in a stable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top