Are there any sound horses out there for sale?

[Polos Mum]

I’ll be gutted if it’s a mid-level RC horse, but let’s face it it’s always a possibility.

I didn't mean to offend! I'm sure he'll be lovely - but it sounds like there's not much extra cost in these early years just because he's destined for higher things . A nicely behaved, basics established RC horse will still need breaking and initial schooling from someone who knows what they are doing and hence aren't cheap.

 

[Goldenstar]

Raising your budget would help a bit but expensive horses fail as well I think it was four that I had vetted before I got G one I thought would fail but thought it was worth having vetted because it was so nice the one before G was a surprise ,a five yo I doubt that it had been ridden twenty times it’s hock xrays where awful .
The last horse I bought was so easy , saw it discussed on here looked at it on FB , flew to look at it rode it for ten minutes vetted it bought it probaly the nicest horse I have ever owned .
But I bought G and H to do the same job as OP wants a horse for and they cost a lot more .

 

[blitznbobs]

I have honestly no idea why anyone breeds/ produces horse then if on average the cost is £14k for a very average mid level riding club type - most riders at that level (me absolutely included) don't have anywhere near that to spend on a horse. I can't justify spending a figure I'm not prepared to lose because LOU insurance is off the scale and comes with all the vetting exclusions !!

Why does anyone breed if they lose £5-9k for every 5 y/o that's produced?

How do you make a small fortune breeding horses? Start with a large fortune.

 

[Leo Walker]

It must be exhausting to be looking at "proper" horses and hoping they are going to pass the vet!

I couldn't do it! I buy them cheap enough that I can afford to lose it.

I don't think there are many truly sound horses round, but most of them are sound enough for the job they do. Oddly enough my current one wasn't quite right when I bought her, totally to be expected for a chubby pony who hadn't done much work to be not quite right over stony ground IMHO, but actually now is the soundest horse I have ever owned. So much so that my completely non horsey partner exclaimed the other day "shes different isn't she, she looks really loose and like her joints have been oiled" Which pretty much sums her up. She is not a big mover, shes just young, a pony and and looking and feeling well. She will probably break tomorrow now I have been stupid enough to say that out loud!

 

[dixie]

Well I'm hoping there are some sound ones as I've just bought one !
But it was a total nightmare, this was the 17th horse I viewed and the fifth vetting - and the ones vetted were the ones I thought were sound!
I was wondering if vetting is too strict nowadays but on each horse they had underlying issues. One in fact neither myself or the owner could see she was lame behind but the vet did. The owner to her credit took her to her own vet and he xrayed the offending leg and she had hock spavin developing.
Another looked sound to me too, the vet wasn't entirely happy but said was not specifically lame just off. Luckily I wanted him x-rayed anyway and he did the iffy leg first and he also had hock issues. This was a £10k 8yr old horse. Afterwards that vet rang me and said I'd be mad to buy that horse as he had definite issues brewing.

OP on the vetting you just had, if you really liked the horse I think it would be a good idea to re-test the bit he wasn't good on. It could well be a bruise or something and its encouraging he was fine on flexions and after the riding.

 

[Goldenstar]

I never spend more on a horse than I can afford to lose the moment it’s bought I consider the money gone I don’t insure my horses so I don’t need a vets certificate but I like that start point that the horse passed that bar when I bought it .
It’s rarely black and white an good example is H our younger ID he came from a dealer and had been working as a hireling for three months or so he was five .
He dragged his NS hind toe slightly I was at the vetting with cash and my truck as the dealer wanted the horse away before she closed down for the Xmas period this is my favourite time to buy from a dealer there’s always a deal to do before Christmas they want money and the horses off the yard .
The vet took the judgement he was young weak badly schooled ( very crooked ) and time and correct development would correct this .
Well I think it’s seven seasons later now and I think it’s safe to say the vet was right .
But it was noted on the cert and if you need to insure that’s a big risk to take .

 

[thenervouscob]

I've had my current riding horse from a foal & due to a pollen allergy shes out of work April to October (and yes I've tried everything!) with exercise intolerance. Over the last 6 years I've tried & failed 3 times to buy another to keep & bridge that gap. Horse 1 had ulcers & chronic lameness so I fixed the ulcers & gave him as a companion to a friend, Horse 2 had windswept back legs which would deteriorate under anything bar light work so he's gone as a happy hacker, Horse 3 had a hole in his ligament which only became visible in his gait the week after I brought him home! Luckily he was on loan but still me being me spent a fortune on scans, remedial shoes & vets etc in an attempt to fix him before he went back. So between those 3 the amount I spent I dread to think.

So now I've gone & bought myself a well bred yearling so at least I can be there from the off & know what I'm getting myself in to. I'd rather be there if & when the problem occurs than pick up someones broken horse for the 4th time. A huge gamble, cost & risk I know but at least I've started with a clean slate - plus sure it'll cost less than the previous 3 & their vet bills etc to get him to 3 years old!

 

[elliejhb]

Is there any other compromises you can make OP? My mare was under your budget (but over mine!). She passed her vetting with minor notes but she's a quirky bugger, in her head she's 5 not 10 relatively low mileage, doesn't quite know her job but has lots of potential and she hacks, jumps and loads and travels well.
I know that I've got a lot of hard work in front of me with her but my budget could not stretch to my complete wish list so I've ended up with a project!

 

[Ambers Echo]

I

Vettings are quite frankly a nightmare.
You can take one horse, have different vets vet it, and probably come up with a variety of conclusions on the horses soundness! Vets are on the whole becoming increasingly risk averse.
It’s not easy that’s for sure.

This, I was chatting to the vet who has been working up Max and he said passing a horse is more stressful that failing one! You don;t really get much come-back for failing a sound one one but you definitely get comeback for passing an unsound one. He said with admirable honesty "They don't pay enough for a vetting to have me in bed worrying about how a horse I have passed is getting on".

 

[DabDab]

I buy young and relatively cheap (and yes this means the breeder has already lost money on them), and then spend a lot more on keeping them for the next 1-3 years than it would have cost me to buy them as a 4 or 5yo (so I've also lost money on them), but at least I have a fairly good idea of what I've got physically by the time I come to ride it.

Vettings are a mine field. It always feel like there should be a better way of assessing a mature horse in work.

 

[sport horse]

keep of foal to 4 @ £1000 per year

I do agree with the cost vs. value argument to some degree - it's this figure I'm not sure of. My yearling in 12 months has cost £400
(Wormers/ counts -£40, teeth - £50, 4 x trims = £100, jabs £40, hay - generous guestimate 4 round bales at £35 each = £140, bedding (not in often) so 1/6th pallet wood pellets £40)
I've been carefully tracking the cost of him to compare to a just backed 5 y/o in a few years time.

I assume you have ad lib free grazing, all fenced and maintained at no cost?? I assume that if your yearling can survive on 4 round bales of hay in a year it is a pony not a horse? My warmbloods eat about 6 small bales of hay each/week in winter. They come into stables/barns and need bedding and mucking out! They have their feet trimmed at least 6 times/year maybe more. You have not allowed for any hard feed or supplements to aid growth?

 

[Polos Mum]

I assume you have ad lib free grazing, all fenced and maintained at no cost?? I assume that if your yearling can survive on 4 round bales of hay in a year it is a pony not a horse? My warmbloods eat about 6 small bales of hay each/week in winter. They come into stables/barns and need bedding and mucking out! They have their feet trimmed at least 6 times/year maybe more. You have not allowed for any hard feed or supplements to aid growth?

I agree it's a fools game if you have to pay for livery. I have 8.5 acres with stone walls and only 3.5 horses (one 7hh) so tonnes of grass, no need for brining in as I rotate so no mud and yes he's a yack so no rugs, fancy feed, extras. Supposed to just get to 14.2/15hh but 15 now already at 2.5!!
I borrow sheep for maintenance - both the farmer and I get a good deal out of that.

It is sad but if the only people breeding are sentimental have a go once types, that might explain why there are so many random horses around and why most are lame / conformationally not right / not broken properly hence 'quirky'.

Anyone trying to do it professionally or to make a living must be delusional then bankrupt

 

[milliepops]

It is sad but if the only people breeding are sentimental have a go once types, that might explain why there are so many random horses around and why most are lame / conformationally not right / not broken properly hence 'quirky'.

I think that's a leap! I am sure there are many people who want to breed from a good mare that they've owned, and spend a lot of time and considerable money choosing an appropriate stallion and then put a great deal of care into bringing the horse on.

Doubtless there's also a number of careless breeders who just want a cute foalie but I don't think you can blame the hobby breeders for everything

 

[sport horse]

I have 45 acres and 20 horses but only 8 or so live out - others are stabled competition horses that just go out for a few hours a day. I am already feeding haylage to all those living in field - we were so drought ridden this year that despite lots of grassland management there is no grass left! (nothing to manage though!) I normally do not bring the youngsters in until after New Year (I depend on staff so better if possible to get past all the Bank Holidays) but I doubt I will get that far this year - once it rains I cannot get large bales across the fields with the tractor as that trashes next year's grass.

Anyone thinking of making breeding a business needs to be certified for insanity. I just do not think most people actually stop and think what the real costs are - they are too concerend with which rug to put on their horse tonight!!! Sorry!

 

[Cortez]

Anyone trying to do it professionally or to make a living must be delusional then bankrupt

...which is why I no longer do it

A friend of mine had her horse for 24 years, at livery, and after the mare was put to sleep last year at the grand old age of 34 we worked out how much she had cost (don't ever do this, BTW)......it was well north of £200,000.

 

[Red-1]

...which is why I no longer do it

A friend of mine had her horse for 24 years, at livery, and after the mare was put to sleep last year at the grand old age of 34 we worked out how much she had cost (don't ever do this, BTW)......it was well north of £200,000.

I did all the sums one year the first year I had the horse at home, so no livery to add in. I did not count the cost of the property or repair to roof of stables, or refurbishing the arena. I did not count fencing the field.

I DID count the insurance, shoes, bedding, tack, feed, spray for fields, all little items such as hoof oil, shampoo, lessons, full cost of the horsebox (insurance, tax, fuel, repairs, test etc) as well as the cost of keeping a companion pony (Shetland) as well as his vets fees and farrier trips. Horse insurance was expensive, as were the fence repairs that are needed for a Shetland, also counted the new electric fencing inside the post and rails . I was competing BHTA as it was then, BSJA as it was then and BD. I competed quite a bit, had loads of lessons and arena hires etc. I did not count the new saddle, but did count all other tack and rugs.

The cost for the year... Over 10K

That hurt.

I never did that again!

 

[Bernster]

Nope def not something to calculate!

 

[Alibear]

I added up costs spent on horses in the 20 years between my last good mare and my current good mare, roughly.
Yeah don't do that, and I'm not selling her ever.

 

[Cortez]

Our horses are part of our business, so we have to include all related expenses in our annual accounts which means I know to the penny what they cost. Whilst they don't cost anything near what having them as leisure horses at livery would cost, and we keep them in a very economical way (own land; unshod; minimal feed inputs; not insured) they are still a high maintenance part of the operation and so have to at the very least earn their keep. They therefore have to be sound enough to perform when required. Thankfully I have never had to remove a horse for unsoundness in all the years we have been going (nearly 25).

 

[oldie48]

My OH and I have a rule, he never asks me what anything costs and I don't tell him.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Soooh feeling your pain OP.

When I was looking back-a-long, I had THREE horses fail vettings. Lovely horses, and they'd have been ideal for me, but alas they failed.

It hits you in the pocket as well as the heart does it not!!

But....... if it can't pass the vet, even accepting that the results "on the day" may be different to a week ago or a week hence, you've got to let head rule heart.

But like OP I despaired of finding anything sound!

The horses I have now were NOT vetted!!! (OK so I broke my own rules!). First was a youngster; more recent one had an Irish vetting cert (yeah........ right.... LOL), but I KNEW damn well that if I'd trotted her up in front of my vet he'd have very likely failed her. Anyway, I took a punt on her and brought her home as a winter project, she'd apparently had a few "incidents" with a previous (novice?) rider which could well have been pain-related. So on getting her home I just chucked her out and rested her, got the physio out, and when we got the all-clear, I hopped up. Am hoping she'll turn out good, early signs are encouraging, strongly suspect that the "issues" may well have been (as I suspected) pain-related.

 

[eggs]

At the BD convention a few years ago during one of the sessions the German vet asked why horses have the trot up before a major competition. The unanimous answer was to check the horse was sound. He said no, it was to check the horse was sound enough to compete.

 

[Tihamandturkey]

My OH and I have a rule, he never asks me what anything costs and I don't tell him.

Ditto 😆

 

[Cortez]

more recent one had an Irish vetting cert (yeah........ right.... LOL)

What precisely does this mean please? Are you intimating that an Irish vet is somehow incompetent, or dishonest?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Cortez, it is widely perceived that an full Irish vetting (is it still called a 5 stage?) is less rigorous than an English one. Maybe that is an unjustified slur?

 

[cundlegreen]

I'm a very small breeder of sports horses, BUT I have my own stallion and land, which means it doesn't cost me anything like the figures quoted here. However, nobody is interested in buying a good foal anymore despite how well they have done in the show ring and Futurity, so I rarely breed now, as we are too wet to run youngsters on outside. It is much cheaper to buy an untouched 4/5 year old from Ireland, and taking out 3 years of expenses in producing it.

 

[Cortez]

Cortez, it is widely perceived that an full Irish vetting (is it still called a 5 stage?) is less rigorous than an English one. Maybe that is an unjustified slur?

Yes, I think it is unjustified. English vetting may or may not be more rigorous, I am not regularly present at them, but I do know a horse bought with such from the UK by a friend of mine arrived plainly lame and with undisclosed sarcoids.

 

[cundlegreen]

Cortez, it is widely perceived that an full Irish vetting (is it still called a 5 stage?) is less rigorous than an English one. Maybe that is an unjustified slur?

I've suffered from a very poor 5 stage vetting in Ireland, where a horse I wanted for eventing wasn't even ridden for her vetting. I wasn't aware of this until the cert arrived a MONTH after the vetting. By then the horse had been bought and shipped over, and I became aware of things that should have been picked up at the time. For the first time ever, I claimed against the vet in question, who was a Cavan panel vet, and won compensation. Having said that, I've had other horses vetted very efficiently in Ireland.

 

[Teajack]

I agree it's a fools game if you have to pay for livery. I have 8.5 acres with stone walls and only 3.5 horses (one 7hh) so tonnes of grass, no need for brining in as I rotate so no mud and yes he's a yack so no rugs, fancy feed, extras. Supposed to just get to 14.2/15hh but 15 now already at 2.5!!
I borrow sheep for maintenance - both the farmer and I get a good deal out of that.

It is sad but if the only people breeding are sentimental have a go once types, that might explain why there are so many random horses around and why most are lame / conformationally not right / not broken properly hence 'quirky'.

Anyone trying to do it professionally or to make a living must be delusional then bankrupt

i loved my 13.3 mare dearly but her conformation was nothing to write home about, temperamentally she was not really a child's pony, she required a lot of patience and had already had several owners, including a frankly abusive "pro". She was unable to work by 7 due to neck arthritis (the "pro' had deliberately pulled her over backwards amongst other things). The number of otherwise sensible people who then suggested I just 'had' to put her in foal was frightening .....

 

[oldie48]

As someone who has a horse up for a vetting next week, i've followed this thread with interest. If you have multiple horses and your own land, it's easier to take a punt on a cheap horse or project but if the horse is going to be your one and only and particularly if you are paying livery, I think it's much more of a risk. I have bought horses without a vetting but it was because they were known,either to me or my trainer and had been in regular work and/or had an up to date competition record. I do, however, like the vetting to be done by a particular partner in the practice I use as I know he is very pragmatic and knows the sort of horses I have. I do think seeing a horse vetted often gives you a very good idea of temperament and suitability as well as health and soundness. A pony we bought as a 5 yr old went through a 5 stage, the only comment was that the pony was a definite competition animal and might be too much for my 10 yr old daughter. Vet was spot on as he took said daughter to PC champs, FEI trials and to the big ring at Scope, but he was a nappy awkward bugger for the first year!