Are these bad feet?

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Dirty_D

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Bit of background, my friends horse has just been diagnosed with arthritis to the coffin/pastern and vet has suggested remedial shoeing (rebalancing/wedges/bar shoes etc). Although the vet wouldnt say it was the way the horse was shod that has played a part in this i assume it must have if remedial shoeing is required (although ive no experience in this area). Anyway to get to the point it has made me question the way mine is shod. I recently had his backs removed as we dont do the amount of hacking to warrant it at the mo and i took some photos when i did also including the fronts. (excuse the mudfever cream on the backs!)

I have none from the front or any other angles and sorry for the mud! i just took them for info and i then looked back at them tonight and wonder if the things i can see are real faults or if i am just being thrown by what my friend has been told for hers!

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I can't comment that much on the feet, I am now too used to seeing naked ones, but the toes look long and the heels look under run to me.

FWIW my Frank was diagnosed with DJD of coffin joint and counter rotated pedal bones in November last year. 3-4/10 lame in LF.

We started off in bar shoes and had a steroid/HA injections but by Jan I didn't think he looked a whole lot better apart from having been off work, and when brought back into work was as bad as ever.

His feet externally looked much better for the change in shoeing but we weren't getting a subsequent increase in soundness, vet said no to wedges long term, farrier would have liked to pad the soles to make him more comfortable. I spoke to vet re taking shoes off and he said I was welcome too although he had no cases to go off for his diagnosis (had had success with naviculars and was keen to stress the patience required!)

Frank had one last steroid injection then his shoes came off in March.

I took it very slowly and walked for a long time, only really cantering the last 10 weeks or so as I figured this was his last chance or retirement (he is 19). He is now sound and went competing for the first time this weekend. Any more info you want to know just shout!
 
Do you have any sole or heel shots? Would be helpful to see what's going on at the back of the foot. From those photo's I'd be concerned by the amount of flare. You can see that the farrier's rasped off a fair bit of hoof wall to try and improve breakover, so if you follow the line of the hoof to where it would be had it not been rasped, then you can see just how flared they really are. The heels are underrun also, which does tend to accompany this type of flare.

What's the horse eating?
 
Toes are far too long placing immense strain on the fetlock joint. Cannot comment on the balance as you have no front on shots, but I do wonder looking at those toes!
 
They're not horrendous but nor are they helpful if youve got joint issues due to the weak heal and long toes.

Remedial farriery however is far more likely to worsen the problem, would be better to take them off and allow the horse to grow the hoof he needs for his balance atm, and then have a consultation with a good trimmer to get their opinion. Post his diet up as that may be responsible for the flare.
 
Please quiz your vet as to what exactly the remedial shoeing is going to achieve.

I see some dietary issues mainly but I am far from all knowing lol. Hoof running forward, repeated ripples on the wall etc. all point to lamina connection problems and diet is the number one cause. Too much sugars and carbs and or mineral imbalance with possible hormonal complications. That sums up my thinking.

Are the hind hooves bull nosed? I can't see clearly.
 
Agree with a few of the others long toes no heal support, not really awfull though I find many farriers leave the toes too long, my gelding will go lame if his toes are not short enough, I had to have remedial shoeing for him natural balance to start now we just have a very small lightweight shoe no toeclips but toes very short with lots of heal support and his fine.
 
I can't see the pics very well on my phone but the 2nd pic has no heel support and this is what happened to my lad and now I'm fighting reverse rotated pedal bones which was by bad shoeing. He's now bare to try and sort his feet out.
I'm not against shoeing as iv got my hunter shod but I do think shoeing does a lot more damage than people think but it never gets questioned until the horse has problems. I hoping to take my mares shoes of next summer for her hol after hunting. And if she's re shod again I don't know I will see how she copes or if I can manage it.
 
A lot of people are saying 'long toe' as if this is something which can simply be trimmed off by the farrier and corrected this way. But as amandap says, it's caused by diet, and until this is resolved you will always be fighting a losing battle. I absolutely agree that addressing diet is likely to help much more than any remedial shoes.
 
TwoStroke said:
A lot of people are saying 'long toe' as if this is something which can simply be trimmed off by the farrier and corrected this way. But as amandap says, it's caused by diet, and until this is resolved you will always be fighting a losing battle. I absolutely agree that addressing diet is likely to help much more than any remedial shoes.
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Yes, I think the farrier is actually doing a not bad job at all, given what the hoof's doing. It's not easy to shoe a foot that's running forward like that - if you want to support the heels, the toe is hanging out over the front and there will be pressure under the pedal bone. Farrier IMO is not doing badly at all, but the foot would benefit from a different diet and maybe a break from shoes.

OP it's not a bad foot - but there are things going on that might mean it gets worse rather than improves unless something changes.
 
TwoStroke said:
A lot of people are saying 'long toe' as if this is something which can simply be trimmed off by the farrier and corrected this way. But as amandap says, it's caused by diet, and until this is resolved you will always be fighting a losing battle. I absolutely agree that addressing diet is likely to help much more than any remedial shoes.
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Of course a long toe can be corrected over several shoeings/trims. Noone is suggesting a dramatic change. No farrier worth his salt would make a dramtatic change to those feet. Diet alone does not cause a long toe.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Of course a long toe can be corrected over several shoeings/trims. Noone is suggesting a dramatic change. No farrier worth his salt would make a dramtatic change to those feet. Diet alone does not cause a long toe.
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Without an x-ray it would be irresponsible to start hacking away at the toe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were distal descent of the pedal bone in these feet, meaning that although the toes look 'long', x-rays would show that there isn't a great deal that could be trimmed off.

You can see that the hind feet are also 'long', therefore it is not a problem caused by shoeing. It's absolutely clear from the photos that the farrier is already rasping some of the flare off. Yet the feet have not improved. How is continuing doing the same thing going to suddenly produce different results?

The condition is continuing imo because the underlying cause has not been addressed.
 
TwoStroke said:
Without an x-ray it would be irresponsible to start hacking away at the toe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were distal descent of the pedal bone in these feet, meaning that although the toes look 'long', x-rays would show that there isn't a great deal that could be trimmed off.

You can see that the hind feet are also 'long', therefore it is not a problem caused by shoeing. It's absolutely clear from the photos that the farrier is already rasping some of the flare off. Yet the feet have not improved. How is continuing doing the same thing going to suddenly produce different results?

The condition is continuing imo because the underlying cause has not been addressed.
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Unlucky you if you know farriers that 'hack' at feet :rolleyes: I know a few farriers that always leave toes too long.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Of course a long toe can be corrected over several shoeings/trims. Noone is suggesting a dramatic change. No farrier worth his salt would make a dramatic change to those feet.
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Fair enough but how is the forward heel addressed by Farriery? It looks like there is no heel support because the heel has moved forward along with the toe running forward so the heel bulbs are hanging in mid air.

I agree with twostroke you must address the cause of the hoof shape, just trying to reshape the hoof is mainly achieving a cosmetic effect and the hoof can be weakened by removing tissue to 'get the look'. It may well be that the hoof needs to build sole too.

Hope you don't mind these discussions op, do some research yourself and come to your own conclusions is my best advice.
 
Personally I would take the shoes off. However I would say that a 'good' farrier can tell if the long toe is due to poor farriery or there is more going on and an xray is needed and my husband has insisted on xrays in a few cases. Farriers get reputations for the way they shoe - so it wouldn't be rocket science to ask the vet about the farriery and for them to know the standard of shoeing.

Good luck OP!
 
YasandCrystal said:
Of course a long toe can be corrected over several shoeings/trims.
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I'm not sure that this is strictly true in the sense that TwoStroke meant it Y&C

The only way those toes could be corrected in a few shoeings would be to allow the heel to grow higher and reduce the toe plane. That isn't actually "correcting" the foot and as soon as you take the shoes off and the horse wears its heels back to their natural height, the long toes will promptly make themselves evident again.

I thing the problem with the toe (although bad diet will make things even worse) is actually being caused by the weakness of the back of the foot and the lack of depth and support there for the pedal bone. The only way that I know personally to correct that is to work the back half of the foot, and that's an exceptionally difficult thing to do with shoes on.

I'm not sure why the bare backs, which look to me very likely to have negative coffin bone angle, have not corrected themselves while barefoot, but I am learning from my current rehab that when the back feet are compromised they don't fix until the front ones are also working properly. Although only ever lame in front, and bare behind for three years or more, his back feet have jumped through some incredible hoops in the 5 weeks so far.
 
TwoStroke said:
Without an x-ray it would be irresponsible to start hacking away at the toe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were distal descent of the pedal bone in these feet, meaning that although the toes look 'long', x-rays would show that there isn't a great deal that could be trimmed off.
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I agree with you TS. If you draw a line down the front of the foot you can see that up to an inch has already been brought back off where the toe would have met the floor. There can't be much more to take, can there?
 
YasandCrystal said:
Unlucky you if you know farriers that 'hack' at feet :rolleyes: I know a few farriers that always leave toes too long.
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I merely meant it to illustrate that any aggressive trimming of the toe would be a bad idea without x-rays, and the farrier is already addressing the flare as far as he can under the current circumstances.

I imagine if you look at the foot without a shoe, there won't be a great deal of extra hoof wall at the toe, meaning to take it back to where it 'should' be via trimming, you would have to trim back into the white line/sole. This would make the horse sore, and do no long term good.

Feet like these need to be re-grown, and addressing diet is the first step to acheiving this. I do agree that removing the shoes will likely help as well.

ETA: cross posted with CPTrayes. Agree 100% with what she said ;).
 
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cptrayes said:
The only way those toes could be corrected in a few shoeings would be to allow the heel to grow higher and reduce the toe plane. That isn't actually "correcting" the foot and as soon as you take the shoes off and the horse wears its heels back to their natural height, the long toes will promptly make themselves evident again.
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I don't believe this approach corrects the long toe though does it? It just makes a tall, long toe surely?

I agree the back of the foot looks weak, how will remedial shoeing strengthen it? I just can't get my head around getting a hoof stronger in shoes but I have to admit I don't understand shoeing at all. In my limited understanding shoes provide support but not stimulation.
 
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This is what a farrier done to my lad, brought his toes right back which looked nice but crippled him so much he couldn't walk, ended up on box rest and bute.
 
amandap said:
I don't believe this approach corrects the long toe though does it? It just makes a tall, long toe surely?

I agree the back of the foot looks weak, how will remedial shoeing strengthen it? I just can't get my head around getting a hoof stronger in shoes but I have to admit I don't understand shoeing at all. In my limited understanding shoes provide support but not stimulation.
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Doh! Just realized I misread your post CPT. Missed the bit about "That's not actually correcting". Apols.
 
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply, a lot of helpful information.

The backs on the photos were after just having the shoes removed so this should explain why the backs have no support, i think cptrayes commented on this. I will try and get some pictures tonight which is 6 weeks to see if there is any improvement (although not sure how the camera will work in the dark!)

I am definitely going to address his diet, and i feel so silly that i had not thought of the sugar content of his feed and the impact this can have. He was previously (upto about a year ago) on Alfa A and high fibre cubes but he refused to eat the Alfa A and so i 'stupidly' put him on sugary feed (molichaff condition and my feed merchants own H&P mix) which he gobbled up and i have left him on since! He has brewers yeast, garlic and magnesium supplemented but even as i write this im quite embarrassed as i cant believe i have not thought of this as part of the problem.

Can anyone suggest a good high fibre feed which is fairly palatable? (i do dampen it down anyway to help with the supplements). He's a 16yr old TB (raced until 11) and has adlib haylage and is a fairly good doer for a TB, are there any other supplements i should be adding (oils/joint) How quickly would i expect to see a difference in the hoof growth?

I'm not pro shoes or pro bare foot (fence sitter hence his 50/50 shoes at the mo!) so I'll take some more pics and if anyone can comment if there is a definite need to remove fronts or not (for me I'd like to have front shoes on if they do not hinder him) . . .
 
Not the best pics and no sole shot - so half the story :).

From what I can see of the fronts:

Toes long, causing leverage to the laminae. The bottom third looks disconnected. Strain and lumpiness at and above the coronet (especially at the quarters - always the first part to complain about long walls).

Heels running under (likely as a result of lack of frog stimulation).

I'll wager the frog is thin and weak and the heel is contracted on a solar shot.

The hinds look to be faring better - but still some evidence of flare that has been rasped off. Possibly bull nosed but the glare on the pic makes it hard to see.

I would be looking at the diet on the basis of the flare to the hinds.

I would be looking at a break from shoes on the basis of the length of the hoof, the under-run heels and the stress to the coronet.

Having said all that, the hooves aren't too bad and I would think that with some dietary review and a break from shoes - they could be great.
 
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