Are we producing horses that are unrideable?

Hmmm good question...or could it be the change in riding school etiquette ?

I learnt from a very young age to "hang on and stay on" even if you ended up with the saddle round the stomach - Molesey Pony Farm, I salute you !!! We rode some shocking ponies at that place. And (sometimes) learned to stay on them.
 
There seem to be two things running hand in hand to me, people who cannot ride, for a number of reasons, poor tuition, belief that riding equals sitting on a horse etc.etc. Having been on a trecking weekend with people who believed themselves to be advanced riders, who had never ridden out of a school , I know this to be the case.Then there the amateurs who decide to breed and 'produce' a riding horse, often having no clue how to do this, or buy a youngster, again with no idea what is required to educate it into being a riding horse. The competition horses that don't make the grade, and are then sold down the chain add to this.
 
1) Breeding had 'improved' in Britain. There are far more horse knocking about capable of doing much higher level competitions rather than your good old hunter type. This is all well and good if your are Ben Mayher, Carl Hester or Pippa Funnell for example, but lets face it, most of us are not! These horses are bred for speed, movement, power, jump etc, and even though they may have a great temperament with a professional rider and a proper yard they may not with your average joe rider. The 'old fashioned' type of horse with a slighlty too big head and calm, ploddy nature is just not in vogue.

2) Feeding- we feed everything more than ever. Even good do-er's which look fab, need fed. Realistically most horses in light work will live off good quality forage and water. In the eventing magazine there is an article on this subject. Some event horses in Australia live off nothing other than good hayledge, salt lick, grass and water.

3) How easy it is to get a horse. They days of 'proper' riding schools are disappearing. A lot of new horse owners have received little or no formal training.
 
Paulag said:
I think that horses being kept with limited turnout and only being ridden in the school and at competitions, or at most hacked out occasionally short distances in company is contributing to this as well.

Paula
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This. And it surprises me how many people think their horse is in "hard" work when it's ridden for 45 mins 5 days a week, and feed as such, then wonder why they can't sit on the thing!!
 
A few things in answer to this post

1) No improved breeding is not to blame, I rode some absolute horrors 20 years or so ago, sharp opinionated and difficult - would drop you as much as look at you. As others have said its how they are educated and handled. I choose now to not ride a sharpy, incidentally a very well bred, warmblood. Much nicer than some of the native ponies, hunters or TBs I rode in my youth......

2) People don't know how to feed horses (and ponies) any more - if its sharp knock off the hard feed (know what you feed your horse before you start), good quality forage will suffice for most. Chuck it out in the field the night before you ride it to take the edge of it!

3) Gadgets have been used since time began its just they are more complicated now. I have had no qualms about using draw reins, double bridles or whatever is needed now or 20 years ago. If it works use it, if it doesn't try something else!

4) Stop over complicating problems they are horses, unless there is something physically wrong, most will learn what you teach them (by repetition), whinny and look out for the person who feeds them and enjoy a bit of attention with calm confident handling

I would add though that I do wonder whether unsoundness is more prevalent and whether that is due to breeding, work regimes or better diagnosis or maybe a bit of all three!
 
I didn't have many lessons as a kid, I learnt by riding whatever was given to me that week in return for mucking out - little in the way of tuition, just 1/2hr a week of praying I didn't fall off. I had lessons as a teenager but, again, few and far between. I learnt how to stay on a horse. In my later teens, with more experience, I schooled horses for others and could get them going nicely.

IMO I didn't become a rider until my twenties when I started to have regular lessons on my then, 5 year old warmblood. Both lazy and sharp, with a flashy temper and real athleticism, he was unlike anything I'd ridden before. My instructor told me what he wanted the horse to do and left me to figure out how to do it. This worked for me and the horse - if I got really stuck, instructor would hop on, figure it out and then tell me what to try.

Too much riding instructing nowadays is the 'paint-by-numbers' version of riding - to get a horse to do this, you must do this. With that approach a rider never develops a 'feel' for the horse and therefore will struggle if a horse does not respond to their 'standard approach'.

Don't get me wrong, there are still horses I won't ride and I know when I'm overhorsed.
 
I know I will get shot down for this BUT when I read on here get the saddle checked(most people could fit a saddle once shown) the back checked etc I am thinking probably the owner should get checked. Good to check but we all have wonky backs and pelvis none of us are symmetrical. Quite often people respond saying I have had all of that done and they are still having a problem etc probably because there is nothing wrong with the horse its the owner

Anyhow I know I will get shot down. But most horses just need to be worked a lot harder can live on hay and a small mineral block and live out more than they do. The youngster next door devoured the field fence, ate a 5 bar gate as it was on its own penned in and at the sign of the sun going in was immediately returned to its stable. Since being left out most of the day in sun and rain and now winter(yippee) all of this eating fences has moreless gone. One frustrated youngster who wanted to go for a hoof around.Simple.
 
I am looking in to rosy past....1970's
No saddle fitters one saddle fits all. No back man, the vet did the teeth. No one had a school, if you were lucky if you had a paddock with fencing and most of us hacked every where. No equestrian magazines apart from H&H and Pony and videos did not exist. And your horse or pony spent most of its life in a field with no rugs and a bit of bran and pony nuts if it was cold.You learnt to 'ride' and you fell off a lot, it was expected. Very few of us competed, you were lucky if you went to a show which you hacked to so the horse was well k....kered before you got there, we had very little expectations.
Now everyone has to compete and to do so you need the right horse, the right food the right lessons, have read the right books and have the right gear when really most riders are never going to be that good. Good riders spend hours riding different horses and unfortuately most people idea of working a horse is 45mins of walk and trot and the odd canter twice a week in a school.
They feed their horse like its supurb equine athelete when its the equivalant of Jim Royal, with its fat a**e sat on its superbly fluffed banks of what ever bedding is the vogue at the time.
There are some supurb animals bred but unfortuately there are no enough commited riders to go round. I have never been a fantastic rider but when I did ride I hacked out 5 times a week for aleast 1 1/2 and I worked full time. When my daughters rode I spent hours walking then riding with them on hacks. It is possible now to learn to ride, and I know someone who did it, never hacking ever, she went straight from riding lessons to a £6000 competition horse but had never been out of a school.
 
Indie999, I agree with you. Fitting saddles should not be rocket science. Quite clear when it doesn't fit. When my horses are competing they do get treated to back treatments.

Feeding. It's ridiculous how many feeds are out there and the explosion of IR has gone right along with it. When I was growing up there was one feed. Purina Horse Chow. It was a sweet mix. Horses got a little in the winter and maybe a handful when they came home from a show. No twice a day feedings. We have all this crap drummed into our heads about how they need this and that to survive. Big salt blocks are what they got with hay, grass, and hard work.

This woman at my barn keeps bugging me about checking some woman out who does individual feed reading for each horse. I think she's a bit miffed mine look very shiny and healthy on a small handful of cheap chaff(low in startch and no alfalfa) with vits and mins.

Yes it's great we have advances in certain things and life is probably better for horses but they could also do with tough love as well.

Terri
 
Haha Honetpot, that was a blast from my past as well.
Trouble is it seems like every thing else in life. Some of the old ways needed improvement, but many didn't. We have gone so far the other way it's worse than ever, in a different way. That's why its not just the horses running riot, being I'll mannered and often uncontrollable. Many humans are over fed, under worked, full of their own wants (not needs) and whilst fully aware of their rights have no idea or regard for their responsibilities.
The 60's and 70's had many things that were not good, but no where near as much as we have now. There is precious little honesty, integrity, consideration or the ability to work hard for what you want. Work hard all week for nothing more than the chance of half hour ride on a muddy hairy very wily riding school pony who triedto outwit you at every opportunity. I think it's safe to say, not a kid in the country would do that now. But it's what taught the likes of you and me to be able to care for and ride pretty much anything.
 
No it the riders we are not producing. I have had a livery client that had six lessons, cantered once and then bought a horse, (an inexperienced horse, not a school master) which she couldn't even get to grips with on the ground!

I have 20+ years of riding experience and have backed half a dozen without too many problems until this year i met my match with an already backed youngster, and had to admit i need serious professional help (at great financial expense). Three months later we we are out competing (successfully!) so worth every penny. Someone said to me the other day 'You can see why people claim that horses are misdescribed in adverts'. The horse was a completely different temperament when it came to me from when i viewed it, but now back as described and tried.

In a nut shell i didn't have the time, facilities, and assistance to deal with this horse who was clearly trying me out on arriving at a new home. I chose to invest in the horse's education rather than sell on, which so many do and then after several homes without the underlying issues resolved they are 8 and labelled as unrideable. The moral of my post is don't by a youngster unless you are prepared to invest time and money in his or her education.
 
Long gone are the old fashioned remedies/methods of true horsemanship- far too much is analysed these days and science has a lot to answer for. I am an old fashioned horseman in a 26yo body due to the way I have been trained but even I have used a calmer for a horse that shouldnt have needed it!! I am about to embark on a yard move to relive my youth (ex NH jockey, rum ole bugger - proper old school) send all the pony clubbers our way... all though Im sure their mothers wouldnt like it! again another problem - a mothers influences on tot riders - my mum used to drop me off and that was it, these days Amelia-Isabella cannot even get her plaits fluffed up :( there lies the problem IMHO.
 
Well, in Holland we are overproducing top class horses, which "normal" riders think they CAN ride, but obviously can not, so they blame the horse, use draw reins, instead of getting lessons and actually learning how to ride.
 
ribbons said:
Haha Honetpot, that was a blast from my past as well.
Trouble is it seems like every thing else in life. Some of the old ways needed improvement, but many didn't. We have gone so far the other way it's worse than ever, in a different way. That's why its not just the horses running riot, being I'll mannered and often uncontrollable. Many humans are over fed, under worked, full of their own wants (not needs) and whilst fully aware of their rights have no idea or regard for their responsibilities.
The 60's and 70's had many things that were not good, but no where near as much as we have now. There is precious little honesty, integrity, consideration or the ability to work hard for what you want. Work hard all week for nothing more than the chance of half hour ride on a muddy hairy very wily riding school pony who tried to outwit you at every opportunity. I think it's safe to say, not a kid in the country would do that now. But it's what taught the likes of you and me to be able to care for and ride pretty much anything.
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This made me grin - it is all very true.
Instructor, trainers, colleges and employers are no longer able either to be brutally honest, or to stick a rider on something above their ability.
We all worry about self esteem and building confidence but the vital learning curves are hindered while we risk assess.
I honestly think that those who learned 'falling off skills' frequently as children have a much better chance of developing into good riders. Now, even parents are shamed if they buy a pony that drops their child.
I also think that in the past we had the experience of riding and jumping scores of different horses before sitting on a big moving, fit, competition bred animal. We all knew our capabilities and lack of! We aspired to ride better horses and there was no shame in knowing that some were too good for us. It showed our horsemanship that we recognised this! :)
And how many riders are nowhere near being 'riding fit' themselves? Or have any idea what the term means?
It doesn't mean your horse is willing to stagger about under you, an all too common sight, nowadays!
 
dominobrown said:
Well yes, as Siennamum pointed out, getting rising lessons probably cost more than buying a horse!
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Yes they do but are worth it if you accept that riding a horse is more than just sitting on it's back and being carried around the lanes. I usually have two lessons each week which costs me £66 ish. I have been offered livery for £15 a week. However I want to be able to ride well before I get a horse..having decided to take it up a year ago aged 52 I'm making sure I do it properly. ;)
I've learnt the nuts and bolts of riding at a local school..old style maybe as I've had a lot of lessons without stirrups. However I realised at some point that there was more to riding than 'nuts and bolts' so I found me an instructor who teaches classical dressage and teaches me about riding in harmony with the horse. Maybe there's a belief that if you Just want to hack then riding skill is not that necessary. I know that amongst the people I hack out I'm the exception.
So to your question..are we not producing unrideable horses? I think horse buyers need to exercise better judgement when buying and accept the limitations of their riding ability. However it seems that horses have become a bit like cars in that people want the flashy fast ones even when they can't ride them. From personal experience I have found out that the horse who's taught me the most about horsemanship is the nervous and hard to ride RS horse I have lessons on. I am fortunate to have had him to teach me and the opportunity to ride him in a safe environment. Would I have been safe on him outside of the school ? Very probably not.
 
The OP question is just so generic that it is unanswerable. The UK horse market alone produces a huge variety of horses, from first ridden native ponies, to top competition horses, to race horses, to hunters, to family friends, etc.

People get it wrong with their horses because riding is difficult and it's also difficult to find the right horse for the right rider.

In my opinion riding standards, especially in relation to competitions, have risen tremendously at every level, from the amateurs having a bit of fun at the lower levels to the top professionals competing internationally. This is as a result of a combination of factors including more people interested in the sport, better horses, more trainers, more information, more opportunities, more competitions, etc.

To the poster who thought there was a lack of trainers...are you serious???? There is an abundance of trainers, clinics, demos, etc. all over the place in the UK! There is simply no comparison with what is available even in horsey countries like France, not to mention how dire the training situation is in non-horsey countries like Greece.
 
Four Seasons said:
Well, in Holland we are overproducing top class horses, which "normal" riders think they CAN ride, but obviously can not, so they blame the horse, use draw reins, instead of getting lessons and actually learning how to ride.
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Then we import them and the same happens here. :D

The amateur market is full of pros reject horses. Some are OK, but most of us would do better with horses bred with amateurs in mind in the first place. I don't think many are unridable, are they? Just not really right for anything. A bit like all the waste from the racing industry, there's a lot of waste from the top end of the other disciplines and the horses not good enough end up in homes which really would be more suited to less flashy and over-powered types.
 
Yes and no.
There are a number of contributory factors.
1. Breeding is getting better but nurture and training also play a huge part.
2. Limited or no turnout on top of horses bring stuffed full of energy foods and supplements they don't need.
3. Modern society and the WANT NOW! way of thinking instead of building up the experience and moving up through the types of horses. Wanting results NOW instead of being prepared to take the time and reap the results later.
4. Riding schools fear of being sued/costs of insurance limiting the bareback/halter riding experience which IMHO is absolutely necessary for a good seat/balance.
5. Riders too quick to blame the horse when they are the ones at fault. :mad:
6. Fashion - gadgets, type of horses.
7. Greed.
8. Snobbery.

Think the above covers the majority.
The horses are the innocent victims is a greedy and immoral society.
 
By the way, I don't really like the fact that this thread has way too many people assuming that Warmbloods are the problem horses while cobs and those without specific breeding are deemed to be safe.

Having grown up in Germany, about 90% of all horses I saw were WBs, closely followed by TBs, Friesians, Icelandic Ponies and Haflingers. Chances were, you'd learn riding on a WB. I never saw a cob until I arrived in the UK.

Now, most of the riders there did NOT ride like Ingrid Klimke! For a while, the Hanoverian Society in Germany even had an auction aimed specifically at leisure riders. The horses were all mostly around 5 years old, and often bought by people who were clear beginners. However, the breeders took the time to bombproof the horses, and really put in the work (and from the looks of it, two years time) to make them the horses that buyers wanted. The feedback was that the horses were perfectly suitable for their new owners who improved dramatically on their steeds. A lot of WBs here get sold after 6 months backing, assuming the new owners will do the rest. You can see the problem in that equation..

I think the WB = Professional Horse equation is completely outdated, and a very narrow-minded British way of thinking. It's a little like horsey xenophobia really. Because if that was true, why are WBs used by leisure riders in Germany?

I've fallen off more horses that were cobs but not trained well enough. Not WBs...
 
Tasel..you make a good point. The only horse I've come off was a short coloured RS pony who fell over her own feet and took me with her. The WB mare TB amd Arab TB x i help with are all safe to ride. it's the cob who's playing up ..but that is not his fault it's poor riding. The myth of the safe cob convinced his buyer to get him :eek:
 
I do not think that the horses produced today are any more unrideable than they were way back in the last century!

What has changed is the way people learn to ride and the way that excuses are made for unrequested behaviour.

I so agree with millitiger!

There is a great lack of horsemanship nowadays. The are of feeding has gone by the board and people feed what is recommended by the manufactures rather than by the old feeding rules.

A horse that was standing on its ears would be taken out and worked hard. Trotted for miles, cantered up any hill and if it misbehaved on the way home it was turned and made to work more. Strikes me that nowadays people immediately want a reason for this misbehaviour and look at saddle fit, misalignment and any other excuse that takes the onus off them.
 
I think some of the problems that are being seen today are the direct result of a very bad combination: ignorance and pure laziness on the part of the riders/owners. Horses require a LOT of hard work to get and keep "right". When I was a kid if I tried to blame my pony for anything that went wrong I got a sharp clip around the ear and the words "a bad workman blames his tools" on more than one occasion (and not just from my parents, either).
 
I think some owners indulge their horses either knowingly or unknowingly

Back in 'my day' horses that couldn't be turned out alone, couldn't be hacked alone, wouldn't go through gateways, wouldn't jump fillers, wouldn't stand to be mounted, couldn't stand in a loosebox, wouldn't load etc were few and far between
 
It's not really the breeding or particular breeds to blame, its the availability combined with lack of experience. In my early teens, during the early 90's you were far more limited. On our yard we had one very laid back ex racer who was anybody's ride, but as a child & teen moving onto a tb or hunter was a much envied achievement. I remember at 14 being speechless when an adult livery paid me the huge compliment of asking if I'd like to ride her stereotypical tb to help keep it fit. And the 7day wonder when a local mum bought her novice 13yr old a tb straight off the track. Completely overhorsed & didn't end well. Whereas now its pretty common. Novice adults pretty much had the choice of large natives or native crosses, cobs or well mannered hunters needing a quieter life. Now, there's a huge range to choose from, & they are easily available. And the culture of 'I want it now' has passed into some peoples attitude to the horseworld.
 
The problem of inexperienced people buying horses they can't ride/care for is NOTHING new! ;)


I read a bunch of riding manuals from the 19th century to the late twentieth century, and it's a perennial issue - once the grooms had gone (and when there were grooms the manuals are full of criticisms of them and tips for checking on them).

You should see children's riding manuals from the 1920s and 1930s. They all get a pony after a couple of weeks and off they go hunting!

That's why the Pony Club was established, and why riding schools and instructors have been gradually formalised and standardised (I think that started in the 1960s). We do at least have qualifications now, but not ones that are required before you can own a horse.

I learned in the 1980s and we alternated between lessons in the (outdoor) school and hacks out from age six or seven on. When I visited a riding school a couple of years ago for the book, the owner said that between the insurance and the roads, they didn't get to hack out much... There are also insurance/child labour issues with kids spending their weekends in riding schools, although great places like Stepney Bank and Ebony Horse Club seem to have a way round that.
 
WelshD said:
I think some owners indulge their horses either knowingly or unknowingly

Back in 'my day' horses that couldn't be turned out alone, couldn't be hacked alone, wouldn't go through gateways, wouldn't jump fillers, wouldn't stand to be mounted, couldn't stand in a loosebox, wouldn't load etc were few and far between
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Ha! :) I didn't ride for over a decade and when I turned up on this site I remember thinking, "Blimey, that ex riding school pony I rode as a teenager was amazing! Hacked out alone, turned out alone..."
 
I sort of agree that some riders aren't what they used to be - however as a young rider I also don't remember the high amount of highly bred performance horses that we have today. There were about two on the riding school/livery yard where I rode, helped out and subsequently kept my first horse and they belonged to the yard owner. Other than that, the liveries were all just ordinary horses - nothing special. I also remember that you didn't get your first horse/pony until you were a pretty capable rider whereas now people who can barely do a rising trot are buying their own horses, stop having any further lessons and then it all seems to go downhill.
 
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