Are we producing horses that are unrideable?

[Daytona]

I think alot more amateurs also have the money to buy the big well bred youngsters , but maybe not the ability to bring the best out in the horse - perhaps a mistake I have made but time will tell , I also always think horses have no ambitions, something people should remember

 

[zaminda]

I would say that breeding plays a part. Not in what we breed, but in the proportion of competition types to more sensible types.This in itself is not a problem, the problem is that we now have more riders kicking about who haven't ridden bareback and done stupid dangerous things as youngsters, and therefore developed an independent seat and a sense of self preservation.
The pure lack of knowledge as to what constitutes medium or hard work is also responsible.
I am not going to say lack of turnout, as many horses didn't have huge amounts of turnout pre decent turnout rugs.
With health and safety as it is, people are not gaining the experience that is neccasary, and it is going to mean that going forward, people are going to find it harder..
The cost of producing schoolmasters from scratch is high. I dread to think what my pony has cost me over the years, and even when I was offered 10k for him as an 8 year old, it wouldn't have covered it
People want to live the dream, buy a horse they imagine they could jump the earth on, and maybe don't live up to their own expectations.

 

[sport horse]

I would agree that the total ignorance of many horse owners is to blame.

I have a warm blood in my yard on part livery - all food and bedding included. The owner arrived one day with some sacks of high protein mix. A little perplexed I asked why she was buying food when it was included in the livery. Her reply was that she had rung a well known food company and spoken to the nutritionist and they had suggested the horse was fed on this mix. I asked what she had told the nutritionist and the reply was 'I told her he was a 16.1 warmblood in hard work and competing as a show jumper'. Yes he is 16.1 but I personally do not consider a 20 minute hack 3 days a week and going to a show to jump a 80cm amateur class once a fortnight fits the rest of the information. Nor I am sure would the said nutritionist.

My dilemma - do I feed the horse what she asks and watch her get bucked off or argue and lose a valuable friend?

How many times do we have to say 'feed according to the work done' not according to the work that you might do sometime in the future in your dreams.

How many posts are there on this forum along the lines of 'what feed should I give my yearling highland pony? (poor quality grass) How many rugs should I put on my cob in September? (none!)What supplements should I give my horse to hack round the block (again none unless there is a problem in which case speak to the vet)

I grew up in an era of no DIY unless you had your own yard. We all kept our horses in big livery yards and we learnt from the people running those yards and they all had a lifetime experience not a year at a college!

We competed once we could stay on and jump a course - at unaffiliated this was never lower than 75cm and the smallest Affiliated was Foxhunter at 3'9". A dressage test always included canteron both reins! If you cannot do these things perhaps you should go for lessons not out competing.

Meanwhile the horse gets the blame - something we were never ever allowed to do! How many perfectly lovely horses are tarnished as rogues due to ignorance and bad management?

 

[tasel]

I would agree that the total ignorance of many horse owners is to blame.

I have a warm blood in my yard on part livery - all food and bedding included. The owner arrived one day with some sacks of high protein mix. A little perplexed I asked why she was buying food when it was included in the livery. Her reply was that she had rung a well known food company and spoken to the nutritionist and they had suggested the horse was fed on this mix. I asked what she had told the nutritionist and the reply was 'I told her he was a 16.1 warmblood in hard work and competing as a show jumper'. Yes he is 16.1 but I personally do not consider a 20 minute hack 3 days a week and going to a show to jump a 80cm amateur class once a fortnight fits the rest of the information. Nor I am sure would the said nutritionist.

Sometimes, it's not the owner though but the yard manager. When my mare (who's difficult as is) was 3 years old, I wanted to only feed her forage on top of the daily turnout. At the time, she wasn't doing anything apart from 20 minutes or so freeschooling, so seriously didn't need anything. Yard manager decided she needed to fatten up like some of the showpony-type horses on the yard. She's a WB, so still had time to mature from her scrawny self. But as I was just a 'numpty' who didn't look after horses day in and out, I was ignored.

Same at the yard that was meant to back her. They said whatever the previous yard gave her wasn't enough. She needed something that would build her up. I was alarmed by how many expensive sacks of Blue Chip she ate. No wonder the trainer didn't get on with her, and my mare injured herself big time, likely due to the excess energy that led to her charging fields back and forth.

After that, I decided to take matters in my own hands, and researched feed. She is only just getting into work, so given feed that's geared towards that. Low starch and all... and only on days when she's actually being worked. On others, it's grass only.

Big change. I'm not a professional, but I think I'm better in this than some who call themselves so. Begs the question, if yard managers and trainers are like this... how do you expect amateurs to be?

 

[Cortez]

You are very right Tasel, overfeeding is a part of overhorsing, IMO. Most leisure horses (and most horses are just this) do not need hard feed! There has not been a bag of feed on my yard for 5 years, just grass, hay and straw (yes, that's for feeding too). Admittedly mine are all good doers, but they work quite hard in the summertime (they are display and stunt horses, leisure is for winter).

 

[micramadam]

^^^^
This.
Our 2 warmbloods are in competition training (dressage) 1 hour a day for 6 days a week and all they get hard food wise is a handful of a chaff based product and a handful of basic nuts and I mean literally only a handful.
They are fed adlib hay or haylage, straw and they are in beautiful condition.
If we fed the amount recommended on the feed bags they would be unrideable and overweight.
Don't blame the horse look at identifying the underlying causes first.
Rider/owner error is to blame much of the time.

 

[Firewell]

No, I don't think so, it's the riders..
There is a post in CR with a schedule for a local show from the 1970's. The smallest jumping class, the Novice jumping is 3ft in the first round. Even the kids jumping class was 3ft and that was probably done on the back of the local milkmans pony.
We're all wimps now, too concerned with wearing air jackets and falling off over a x pole. Also to have an arena was quite rare then, most people hacked, hunted and schooled in the field.

 

[AmiRobertson]

At the place I learnt to ride in the 90's we had to catch, groom and tack up our ponies before a lesson (which was in field with hand made letters stuck in the ground) and when we hacked out we were often encouraged to jump picnic benches and over the hedge on to the estuary! Also when we went for the camping weeks in the summer we had to clean our tack every day and it was inspected if it wasn't done properly you did it again, muck out, poo pick and pull ragwort. If we all did a good job then we were allowed to ride our ponies bareback in head collars down to the estuary in our pj's to go for a swim Best time of my life I also learned so much as cathy the school owner would regularly sit us down to teach us horse first aid and anatomy! She was my hero, she fell off her youngster who then stamped on her head, she spent 4 months in coma and when she came out of it she had severe epilepsy and speech problems 1 month out of hospital and she was back on that youngster amazing woman! I was 11 when I started riding at her school.

I recently went to watch my friends niece's riding lesson at an inner city riding school we quickly got told by the 12 year old that was apparently the instructor that we weren't allowed to watch for insurance reasons most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!!! I also found out that after 2 years of 1 hours weekly lessons (at £30phr!!) this 8 year old girl can walk and trot but is to scared to canter!!! what??? after 2 years? Shocking riding school all the horses looked so sad No turn out at all at that place.

So after all that I agree mostly with the type of riders that are being produced and also the cost of riding lessons at average poorly managed riding schools. Also that people have riding lessons but don't learn about the day to day care. I can not imagine mummy being to pleased at her little darling being told (not always nicely) that she needs to clean her tack again because she didn't do it properly the first time by the matriarch types that I was taught by!

 

[Pale Rider]

I think that the problem is with the owners/riders rather than the horses.

As far as breeding goes, horses now are probably better bred than they have ever been in some spheres and worse than they were in others.

How much temperament plays in considering a mare or stallion I don't know, but that used to be an important consideration.

People breeding from crap because they don't want to get rid is a problem to some extent.

Feeding has gone crazy, its all the wrong stuff. People cram far too much sugar and starch into horses and wonder why their brain is fried. Horses get fed the equivalent of a McDonalds diet.

People don't put enough time in the saddle. Keeping horses at livery and riding once or twice a week for an hour is no use. The only way to improve is to ride and put some hours in every day.

Green people riding green horses is just a recipe for disaster. Young horses need good sympathetic riders who can ride the horse to bring it on. People learning to ride need to learn on and from horses which have been trained properly so they can learn to ride the horse, not just its head.

Owning and riding horses is now affordable for lots more people, consequently they can pay to have the horse fed and kept, but you also need time as well as money, thats what they don't have, time to aquire and hone the skill of riding.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Tasel, agree with you on feeding light. I've raised warmbloods. Have had the scrawny growers and the fatties. This is why feeding is a balancing act. Was your filly getting enough protein combined daily? Amino acids? Vits and mins for a growing horse? You yourself say she was scrawny which isn't a problem but I wouldn't break either a very immature baby and or very fat. And I'm not having a go at you. Just pointing out that at some stages and growth spurts you may need more than a handful of chaff. And that's all my 2 YO is on but yet I'm also including flax, and vits and mins for supporting growth. I don't do bagged feeds. I've gotten pure protein powder and added a couple of teaspoons to the rangy ones and this helps. I don't have to worry about stupid fillers.

What the backing yard did was feed her everything at once in order to pump her up and yet that was silly. Of course she had issues. Especially a balancer. Hate those things.

My intention of this post is not to be snarky or mean. So please don't take it that way. I hope your girl is fine now and continues on injury free.

Terri

 

[SusannaF]

At the place I learnt to ride in the 90's we had to catch, groom and tack up our ponies before a lesson

A couple of years ago a stable had to make a massive payout to the family of a girl who had been collecting her own pony from one their fields when she was kicked. So I wonder if kids still get to go down to the fields.

I always loved it. Especially taking the ponies back at the end of the day - they lived out at night.

 

[jump?howhigh]

I think as well to all these rules on riding schools and 'no win no fee claimers' they no longer have those step up horses for children to get on a horse with a bit of spice to learn. I was always taught learning to take a fall is part of learning to ride! Plus ive seen no end of silly owners' saw a woman buy a green 3yr old who didn't even know how to put on a headcollar. I attended an equine college and all the girls bought big warmbloods, tbs and irish sport horses because if you had a cob/hardy/heinz 57 vareity you were snubbed and picked on. Also know many riding school mothers who wanted sports ponies for there children. whatever happened to just enjoying riding? Why does it seem theres so much pressure that everyone has to compete or do a dicipline?

 

[jump?howhigh]

Plus back in the day a lot of horses hunted and riders had to learn and trust there horse to get himself out of trouble. Nowadays it seems to be all about you must have the horse here or there all the time. Horses are no longer allowed to think for themsevles on some parts.

 

[rowy]

I was over horsed with my first horse. I was a novice just out of riding school and didn't know much and we went to a dealer who had a 15hh tb who had done pretty much nothing but she had a real pretty face. Dealer could tell we were novices but sold her to us anyway.
We stuck with her even though I had a lot of falls! (she hated poles and liked to go 100mph at all times). And now, 8 years later, I have a rideable horse who is difficult but I can get more out of her in the school (training medium level now). She had taught me so much and turned me into the rider I am today. I can now manage the quirky horses and youngsters.

I think the main issue is that there are so little safe sensible Rc/pc ponies/ horses on the market. For this reason, people selling them are realising they sell fast so they upped their prices so this meant only well off people can afford them. The rest only have a pick of the "project horses" market or young horses leading to getting over horsed.

 

[pip6]

Lady at last yard bought herself connemara who turned out to have constant lameness issues (so badly put together nicknamed 'cut n shunt' on yard). She wanted to 'do classical' (dressage). Very wealthy boyfriend didn't like seeing her on connie, so bought her 6 yr old by very well known sj stallion. Huge mare, have to say very generous ride. She sat on it once in school (I was poo picking paddock next to school). She was terrified of it, kept on saying it was trying to take off with her when it was just plodding around like a dope. She refused to trot. Boyfriend got very frustrated, so he got on, took it up fields & hammered it over the xc jumps. Mare was never sound from that day, turned out she has degenerative bone disease in front feet. Owner now happy as she has 2 horses to fuss over on ground, with good excuse never to sit on them. Have to say not only one at yard like that. Why spend the money & have the hassle if you're scared to sit on them? Human ego.

 

[FfionWinnie]

There are more people who ride horses but there are less "riders".

For goodness sake you can buy horse stuff in tesco these days

 

[Littlelegs]

I don't think the price of safe sensible types has been pushed up at all in line with inflation. If anything the opposite. It's just the prices have dropped so much in general they seem high by comparison. Safe sensible allrounders were never cheap, but more people were equipped to have less than perfect horses & put the work in.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't think the price of safe sensible types has been pushed up at all in line with inflation. If anything the opposite. It's just the prices have dropped so much in general they seem high by comparison. Safe sensible allrounders were never cheap, but more people were equipped to have less than perfect horses & put the work in.

This is it in a nut shell and I like there used to be a type of old fashioned nags men's/ women who produced nice all rounder types and I don't think round here any way I see these people anymore ,I can think of one but if you think of the find me a nice all rounder for £4000 thread £ 4000 would not buy one of his horses .
Good all rounders are never cheap the last one I sold cost the same as a nice young event type.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I would call myself an amature (sorry about spelling) and have jumped up to foxhunter/1.30. I buy well bred horses, sometimes from the continent or ireland to produce myself. Over all the years ive had one horse who is a problem and inconsistant. I blammed myself and asked some more professional riders to jump her for a while and they struggled more than me. Some horses are just difficult and it does happen. I tried to sell her and alot of novices came and I ended up with all veiwings on the ground! I have kept said horse, talented, quirky and difficult but better with me I think!

I wouldnt blame breeding we need better horses to compete. I dont know much about riding club horses but I see many of them at uni perfect for the job!

I do agree with needing better standard of riders though. I am not perfect and always learning new things! I know many people who dont want to learn anymore yet still have issues. Uni the riding school is very tight and boring, due to health and safetly! When I was at a riding school I rode bareback, jumped too high, fell off and learned loads!

 

[AmiRobertson]

A couple of years ago a stable had to make a massive payout to the family of a girl who had been collecting her own pony from one their fields when she was kicked. So I wonder if kids still get to go down to the fields.

I always loved it. Especially taking the ponies back at the end of the day - they lived out at night.

Thats ridiculous! It was her pony!
Kids if they want to ride should also be taught the groundwork and care. Owning and riding horses is not the most safe hobby and its a shame that the culture of suing everyone for every trip and fall has come about.

 

[Littlelegs]

Exactly Goldenstar. When I was a child few of us rode perfect ponies or owned them. None of them were nutters by any means, just little quirks. Eg aged 8/9 I loaned a star of a 12.2. She couldn't half jump, & I & many before & after adored her. Good in traffic & safe, but if not kept occupied on a hack did a tiny half rear into canter. Great fun allround, & we all accepted that without big money, if you wanted to ride the talented pony that's what you got. Whereas many parents today just wouldn't consider a pony like that. And that goes right through to adults. I see it with kids my daughters age, only ever rode quiet plods & the parents are already worrying about the budget for safe 13.2 allrounders when they move up in a few years.

 

[armchair_rider]

In fairness to the buyers I do suspect it's easier to get rid of a problem horse these days. I would guess that in the past most people bought locally and could ascertain the reputation of the vendor, even if they didn't know the horse. Nowadays people look on line and drive 3/4 hours to go and see horses, they don't know the horse or the vendor.

Admittedly there's always been the option of sending a dodgy horse to auction some way away but then buying at auction has always been considered a gamble.

What's more with the internet and cars it's easier for people to find their dream horse rather than having to settle for something local - and suitable.

 

[Mearas]

Thank you very much for all your very interesting contributions. It would appear that a lot of people think that it is more that people are unable to ride and care for some horses properly and that riding establishments are unable to teach people to ride as they may like to because of the risk of being sued. This seems and irreconcilable problem? Does anyone have any thoughts? Perhaps having tests purely assessing someones riding ability and their training not that of their horses? Any other thoughts?

 

[AmiRobertson]

I think the important thing is that when you buy your first horse to have the advice of someone who has the best interests of the horse. My instructor teaches riding in a way that is more for the horses benefit than the riders. She is a mainly a dressage instructor but she has spent her life working with young horses and she point blank refuses to teach jumping until you have the flat work working properly. In the process of finding Dizzy she has been the person I have communicated with because I know that she will tell me if I am out of my depth or not.
Maybe its a case of insuring that people who are teaching riding are ACTUALLY teaching riding.
I think that lessons shouldn't just be about how to sit on a horse but about care and what a horse actually needs from you as an owner to be able to reach their potential so people who decide to buy are more knowledgeable before their hunt.
Again that can go back to dealers who will pretty much sell a horse to anyone when the horse is actually out of the buyers abilities they then struggle with the horse they buy and sell it on without actually considering the home the horse will be moved on to.
Maybe a more rigid training for future instructors maybe a kind of riding school offsted scheme :/ and stronger guidelines/licensing for dealers so they insure horses are going to the correct homes. Maybe possible buyers assessments, its why I chose to only view horses in private homes because they vetted me as much as I vetted them.
If only we lived in a perfect world without greedy and stupid people

 

[Mearas]

Ami, I think you make some really valid and useful points.

Must admit that my own trainer has a lot of hot horses at her clinics but they are always calm because they trust her. They seem to know that whenever she is around things are calm, they are not stressed or pushed beyond there capabilities. Even new horses pick up this vibe and are calm. I think many horses are now 'made' hot even unrideable by the training they receive.

 

[AmiRobertson]

Trust! I think that is the most important thing in relationship between horse and owner! If your horse doesn't trust you why would they want to do what you ask of them.
Building the relationship from the ground is just as important as when you are riding them. The horse I have just bought is my first horse in 10 years. She 4 and very green but she has a very sweet temperament. I really liked her and when I rode her I felt like I could do anything. Hacking out on the second visit was a different story at the moment she has no real relationship with anyone and she was very spooky so I got off and we walked from the ground by the time we got back to her yard she was calm and we finished with a lovely schooling session.
The first thing I asked her present owner who works at the fox-pitts yard was 'do you think I am suitable for her?' not 'do you think she is suitable for me?' and asked the same question to my instructor both said they felt that I was.
She comes on wednesday and a lot of our first month will be spent with ground work lots of grooming, handling and lunging along with some in hand hacks in the local area and I won't push her. Coming from sharing a field with just an old cob for company to a herd of 10 young mares all pretty much TB's and warmbloods is going to blow her brains and she needs to establish her place there before I jump on her back.
A fair few people who buy young green unsuitable horses don't seem to consider the environment the horse needs to grow mentally and physically strong and confident. Its a want it and have it now culture and without correct education regarding the horses welfare not the owners it will just continue.
Me and Dizzy have all the time in the world do this properly and for her benefit so I have no intentions of rushing her.

 

[Luci07]

while I agree about feeding for work only, I was always taught to keep the feed consistent so picked up on your comment about only feeding on the days your horse was worked? I would think it would be better to keep the feed regime the same and reduce colic risk?

And going back to OP. We did tend to stick it out for longer as well rather than present times and perhaps the opportunity for people to roll up ther sleeves and muck in has gone. I helped with my neighbours hunters when I wasn't big enough to fill up a water bucket completely. Had lessons on them and missed out ponies completely. And so on. Sure others on the board would have similiar stories to tell!

 

[Cortez]

As a collecter of waifs and strays, I have several rescue horses who have been made unsaleable by their previous riders. One horse is so afraid of the rider falling off or grabbing the reins that he practically comes unglued if anyone so much as moves in the saddle, yet he is the sweetest, calmest, most sensitive soul (which of course is part of his problem). Another has had a catastrophic accident involving ill-fitting tack coming undone and slipping which makes him unsuitable for any but the most experienced home. Both are fantastic horses, ruined by ignorance and unable to ever realise their considerable promise. Both were VERY expensive youngsters when purchased by their original owners. Poor horses.

 

[Mearas]

^^^^^^ You all sound like very knowledgable and caring riders

 

[wench]

There are lots of numpties on here...