Are whips or spurs relied on too much when schooling horses?

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Ernest Doodles

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I am fundamentally a lazy person. If given the opportunity to use something to fast-track the horse to do what I want quicker, I'll use it. So - I don't like using either whip or spur when schooling because, they won't improve my riding nor will they help me gain more effective natural aids, let they offer me a 'fast track' way to get what I want in the short term!

I tried out a pony today for a friend (who's pregnant) with a view to keeping him ticking over until she's had the baby and can start riding him again. Problem is, she insisted that I must carry a whip in the school with me when ever I ride him. Yet this pony is incredibly compliant and responsive to the leg and there was certainly not need for the whip, except when my aids were inadequate and so I needed a 'fast track' aid for a result.

Alas, I am one of a large number of riders that, when presented with this temptation, I'll use it inappropriately in favour of not looking like a numpty. So, I simply do not want to school her pony whilst holding a whip so I won't be tempted to take the easy route.

Yes, when driving horses, riding on the road or a disable rider that doesn't have all the natural functuality most riders have benefit hugely from artificial aids due to lack of their own. But when we can use the natural 4, do most of us really need anything extra?

Am I being totally unreasonable here by going against her wishes and just ride the pony whilst holding a whip - hoping I don't get tempted to use it inappropriately? Or, should I stick to my guns knowing that a whip is far too much of a temptation to use as a crouch to force the issue because I am simply not communicating with the pony effectively through my natural aids?

I feel this may be a deal breaker regards keeping her pony ticking over whilst she's unable to ride but, I really do feel strongly when it comes to my carrying a schooling whip :(

Would be interested in what you guys think
 
I had my mare for 15 years and never needed a whip or spurs on her! however, I now have to ride with both as my horse is the laziest little sh it you will ever meet, he would stand still and totally ignore my leg and whip until I started using spurs! he is now very responsive and often I just have to move my whip hand and he goes forward if he's ignored my leg!

I'm sure the owner has a reason for wanting you to carry a whip! just because you carry it doesn't mean you have to use it! so I think its a bit silly for it to be a deal breaker!

In fact this summer I travelled an hour and a half to the beach and realised I'd forgotten my whip, I was so worried, not because I thought I'd need it to make him go forward but if he reared up, how would I tell him off! it maybe something similar for this pony? it could be forward but cheeky?
 
As with any external aid, depends on the horse and rider. I dont use spurs as I don't feel my leg is balanced/quiet enough, but I do carry a whip for jumping and schooling. I rarely use it but a schooling whip can help to back up the leg. It's not for punishment, it's as an additional aid, so should be fine used in the right way.

But if you're not comfortable then I'd not use either and chat with the owner to explain. I'm sure if you get a good tune out of the horse/pony without it, can't see why they'd have a problem with that.
 
Ernest Doodles said:
I am fundamentally a lazy person. If given the opportunity to use something to fast-track the horse to do what I want quicker, I'll use it. So - I don't like using either whip or spur when schooling because, they won't improve my riding nor will they help me gain more effective natural aids, let they offer me a 'fast track' way to get what I want in the short term!

I tried out a pony today for a friend (who's pregnant) with a view to keeping him ticking over until she's had the baby and can start riding him again. Problem is, she insisted that I must carry a whip in the school with me when ever I ride him. Yet this pony is incredibly compliant and responsive to the leg and there was certainly not need for the whip, except when my aids were inadequate and so I needed a 'fast track' aid for a result.

Alas, I am one of a large number of riders that, when presented with this temptation, I'll use it inappropriately in favour of not looking like a numpty. So, I simply do not want to school her pony whilst holding a whip so I won't be tempted to take the easy route.

Yes, when driving horses, riding on the road or a disable rider that doesn't have all the natural functuality most riders have benefit hugely from artificial aids due to lack of their own. But when we can use the natural 4, do most of us really need anything extra?

Am I being totally unreasonable here by going against her wishes and just ride the pony whilst holding a whip - hoping I don't get tempted to use it inappropriately? Or, should I stick to my guns knowing that a whip is far too much of a temptation to use as a crouch to force the issue because I am simply not communicating with the pony effectively through my natural aids?

I feel this may be a deal breaker regards keeping her pony ticking over whilst she's unable to ride but, I really do feel strongly when it comes to my carrying a schooling whip :(

Would be interested in what you guys think
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It rather depends on whether you believe that a whip and spurs are used for punishment, or to refine the natural aids. There is no shame in using either, if they are used correctly and appropriately.

If I asked someone to carry a whip, or wear spurs, whilst riding my horse, I'd be unimpressed if it didn't happen.
 
A dressage ( or a jumping whip ) is a training tool .
I use use it for direction to show the horse the bit I what them to think about .
You can't ( well you can but that's another story ) lay your leg against a horses shoulder to indicate to it that falling out through the shoulder is what we are working on .
A whip is an aid just like your leg .
Carrying a whip does not mean you need to use it .
A spur refines your leg aid in the training .
Being thinner than your leg it makes its easier for horses to recognise the Aids being given in difference places which is useful in the higher level work .
But I do think spurs are overused in many cases rather than ensure the young horse has fully understood that it must go forwards until it's asked to do something else spurs are used and more often than not the horse ends up wooden and dead to leg .
 
I don't use either on any of my lot unless for a specific training issue (and I always carry a short event whip xc)
But each to their own, there are far worse things to subject a horse to no doubt
 
I never get on Mr H without a whip because he sometimes gets rude and needs a tap (or even just a gentle waft of the whip into his line of vision, to be honest) to remind him that he isn't allowed to do something.

Admittedly, I have a wonky right leg; so the stick also sometimes has to double for that a bit, but I don't think it's all that odd to expect someone to carry a whip when riding in case of bolshiness.
 
Yep. I tend to start without one, pick it up if I need to and usually one tap and he's like shhhiiitt she serious then I throw it down again.
 
A dressage whip (which I guess you are using in this case) when used properly is not a tool to use instead of your leg aids, it is used to back up your leg aid if the response you expect doesn't happen, I'm not sure why you think of it a an easy route, it's an extra communication tool and makes things consistent and black and white for the horse. For example, you give a soft leg aid to walk forward, the horse doesn't respond so you back up the leg aid with the whip, then hopefully after a few repetitions your horse will have learnt that a very soft leg squeeze means go forward. The better trained the horse becomes, i.e. the more of these repetitions you do, the less likely you'll need to use your whip as the expected response will become more solid in your horse's brain. Using the whip could make you a better rider as you have to concentrate on giving the exact same leg aid for a particular response. Self discipline and being self aware and being fair to the horse when you're riding should stop you using the whip inappropriately. And I guess in this case the bottom line is that it's her horse and if she only wants you to ride with a whip then I guess you have to go with it.
 
On the flip side, I rode something last week that has been nagged and nagged and nagged with the leg to the extent that he's so switched off, pony club kicks, then trying a pair of spurs (non pc kick obvs) made no difference.

Too much leg and no stick on a lazy one can be as detrimental as someone reaching for a stick too quickly.
 
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Goldenstar said:
A dressage ( or a jumping whip ) is a training tool .
I use use it for direction to show the horse the bit I what them to think about .
You can't ( well you can but that's another story ) lay your leg against a horses shoulder to indicate to it that falling out through the shoulder is what we are working on .
A whip is an aid just like your leg .
Carrying a whip does not mean you need to use it .
A spur refines your leg aid in the training .
Being thinner than your leg it makes its easier for horses to recognise the Aids being given in difference places which is useful in the higher level work .
But I do think spurs are overused in many cases rather than ensure the young horse has fully understood that it must go forwards until it's asked to do something else spurs are used and more often than not the horse ends up wooden and dead to leg .
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As usual GS has hit the nail on the head. They are there to refine your aids, not to keep nag nag nagging.
 
Auslander said:
It rather depends on whether you believe that a whip and spurs are used for punishment, or to refine the natural aids. There is no shame in using either, if they are used correctly and appropriately.
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Exactly this.

Do you know why the owner wants you to carry a whip? If they're insisting on a schooling whip specifically, that would perhaps indicate to me that they trust you to use it appropriately, i.e. to back up the leg with precision, rather than have the pony ridden for a year or so with unclear, imprecise leg aids that the pony may begin to ignore altogether. If I were the owner, I'd be less than impressed if I handed over a horse with a finely calibrated response to the aids only to get it back many months later to find a horse frustrated and confused with the lack of focus in the aids and with the bad things that go with that.

I'm not having a go at you OP, but I'm... I don't know, fascinated?... at how you seem to be quite content to be a lazy rider who admits to using things like whips inappropriately. You know enough to know that you only needed to use the whip when your aids were inadequate. If you don't want to actually use the whip, this pony would make you improve your riding. Why would you not want to take that opportunity?
 
I find the OP's post a bit strange. If I've read it correctly OP, you don't want to use a whip because it will encourage you to be lazy, yes? Well (without meaning to sound rude), surely you need to be more disciplined with yourself in the first place not to rely on it then? By carrying a stick I'm sure you aren't suddenly going to turn into a sack of potatoes who forgets how to use their leg and just smacks with the stick continually. What do you think is going to happen just because you carry a stick? I carry one but I only use a small tap occasionally. Horse can sometimes drop behind my leg if he's being a bit cheeky so he'll get a tap then, and I might sometimes use it during lateral work if I want a bit more. I certainly don't use it every stride or beat him with it.
 
If the owner of the horse wants you to carry a whip, then you carry a whip. You don't have to use it.

Every single competant rider I've ever known has carried a whip during training, and advanced riding/competing requires spurs, so I would imagine they have their uses. I think you're being a bit precious.
 
chestnut cob said:
I find the OP's post a bit strange. If I've read it correctly OP, you don't want to use a whip because it will encourage you to be lazy, yes? Well (without meaning to sound rude), surely you need to be more disciplined with yourself in the first place not to rely on it then?
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:lol: ^^ this

Rode a horse for someone this morning. His preferred way of going is with his neck buried into his shoulder, slopping along behind your leg. The owner is finding it somewhat hard work, not surprising.
Today I used spurs to sharpen him to my leg aid, and the stick to encourage his hind legs to snap under in canter, and to stop him trailing his quarters in leg yield. Finished up in better self carriage and a bit more forward thinking. It would be lovely to ride him without either spurs or a stick, but at the moment he is not sensitive enough. The trick is to use all of your tools appropriately to train the horse.
 
I wish I didn't have too. But I have tried and tried and tried and tried and I've decided if much rather give him a squeeze with my leg then back it up with a sharp smack than constantly KICK KICK KICK KICK.
I'd always ride with one out hacking they are very helpful for nasty people and nasty dogs!
 
Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them, however if you haven't got them then you can't use them!

I see them both as something that sharpens an aid, its all in the timing :)
 
A dressage stick is an aid as well as your hands, legs, seat and weight. e.g. Used behind the leg, along the flank it can be used to ask for a deeper cross in lateral work.

And I would much prefer to use my stick behind my leg once, than to have to use a strong or nagging leg aid.
 
Thank you all for your input, guys.

Firstly - I do not think there is any shame in any of us admitting our failings and, dealing with them accordingly, to the best of our ability. None of us are perfect, after all.

Secondly - I have no problem with the use of artificial aids by those competent enough to use them correctly. I do have a problem with MY using them for schooling purposes. And, given I’ve managed perfectly well without using them for years, (except for carriage driving or hacking on the road) I would need a ruddy good reason given to me TO USE ONE in the school.

In response to a few comments which pretty much covers all points made (hopefully):
Auslander said:
If I asked someone to carry a whip, or wear spurs, whilst riding my horse, I'd be unimpressed if it didn't happen.
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I totally agree with that – and, if someone mounted one of my horses with a whip in hand or spurs on boots, I’d be equally ‘unimpressed’. Unless they could provide a cast iron reason for doing to without prior knowledge of how the pony performs under saddle.
equi said:
Yep. I tend to start without one, pick it up if I need to and usually one tap and he's like shhhiiitt she serious then I throw it down again.
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That, to me, is a very sensible - middle ground - approach. Could suggest that as a compromise?
LadySam said:
Exactly this.
Do you know why the owner wants you to carry a whip?
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She relies quite heavily on her schooling whip to back up her leg aid. When I tried him out, I found him to be very responsive to the leg without any additional backup .... unless he was just behaving himself as he had a newbie on board :D

He’s certainly no ‘kick-along’ pony.
If I were the owner, I'd be less than impressed if I handed over a horse with a finely calibrated response to the aids only to get it back many months later to find a horse frustrated and confused with the lack of focus in the aids and with the bad things that go with that.
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So would I, LadySam, if the roles were reversed. There is always a risk when asking someone to fill in, no matter how much we may respect them as riders. Both us and our horses all have our idiosyncrasies after all so, what may appear the perfect solution on paper isn’t always the reality of it when put into practise.
I'm not having a go at you OP, but I'm... I don't know, fascinated?... at how you seem to be quite content to be a lazy rider who admits to using things like whips inappropriately ....
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I know my failings and limitations - but that wasn’t always the case. There was a time when I’d happily compensate for my lazy riding by inappropriate use of the whip. In fact this was ‘encouraged’ by riding instructors – various – back in the day. I am not prepared to go back there and haven’t been for a number of years.

Alas, there are a lot of riders out there (myself included) that either
a) Don’t appreciate that if only they focused more on improving their natural aids and, less of relying on their artificial aids, their riding and desired results would still not be compromised,
or
b) Won’t accept that their natural aids aren’t quite up to scratch which, as a result, results in excessive use of whip or spur – ego outweighing ability being the biggest culprit for this one. :(

This type of stuff is not the reserve of Pony Club types either - quite a few professional riders have got into a lot of trouble lately for excessive use of artificial aids.
chestnut cob said:
I find the OP's post a bit strange. If I've read it correctly OP, you don't want to use a whip because it will encourage you to be lazy, yes?
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Yes, you read that correctly.
Well (without meaning to sound rude), surely you need to be more disciplined with yourself in the first place not to rely on it then? .
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Sorry ? I don’t quite understand that question. I do not rely on whips or spurs because I do not use either when schooling on my own horses. Not used either for years. So I am a bit confused as to how I need to be more disciplined with myself???
 
Ernest Doodles said:
.......you read that correctly.

Sorry ? I don’t quite understand that question. I do not rely on whips or spurs because I do not use either when schooling on my own horses. Not used either for years. So I am a bit confused as to how I need to be more disciplined with myself???
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Surely, because if you cannot prevent yourself from over using a stick if required to carry one, you require more self discipline.
 
YorksG said:
Surely, because if you cannot prevent yourself from over using a stick if required to carry one, you require more self discipline.
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As I do not use either whips nor spurs when schooling my horses, self discipline - or lack of - regards whip usage doesn't come into it. So I don't understand what you are trying to convey?

Not ever rider (nor horse for that matter) get's on with whips or spurs. It doesn't mean they are any worse (or better) riders than those who choose to have that extra aid.

At least I had the good sense to recognise that, as far as myself and my mount were concerned, it is far more beneficial to our partnership for me NOT to be carrying a whip. Still took a lot of self discipline to work hard to improve the natural aids to a point that the whip was no longer a 'crutch'.
 
Ernest Doodles said:
As I do not use either whips nor spurs when schooling my horses, self discipline - or lack of - regards whip usage doesn't come into it. So I don't understand what you are trying to convey?

Not ever rider (nor horse for that matter) get's on with whips or spurs. It doesn't mean they are any worse (or better) riders than those who choose to have that extra aid.

At least I had the good sense to recognise that, as far as myself and my mount were concerned, it is far more beneficial to our partnership for me NOT to be carrying a whip. Still took a lot of self discipline to work hard to improve the natural aids to a point that the whip was no longer a 'crutch'.
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However the person you may be riding for, wants you to carry a stick, I would presume that you would have the self control to carry one without feeling the need to take short cuts and use it innapropriately.
 
I use spurs on mine. He's idle and gets behind the leg so to do lateral movements I'm having to kick and push which unbalances us both meaning we can't do the move. But with spurs I get an instant response. He can also be quite spooky and I find if I wear spurs I just need to squeeze and he'll go forwards, without (again) I'm kicking and pushing and sometimes have to use my stick.

In this instance I look at using the spurs as kinder than not, I hardly use any leg at all with them, but he needs so much kicking and encouragement without that we both get annoyed and it can't be comfortable for him.

I think it depends on the situation and I do think a lot of people need a lot of riding instruction before they use them!!

I'd be keen to talk in more detail with the owner to find out why and then see if you can have a lesson with her or her instructor to try to get to the bottom of it.
 
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I used to always carry a whip out of habit but rarely used it other than a gentle tap. But then I questioned why I needed it and stopped carrying one. As a result my current horse who I backed has never had a whip carried on her, she's never needed it (I noticed last time I went eventing that everyone else carried one!). It depends on the horse though, I hate them being used as punishment but I could understand a gentle flick with a schooling whip on a lazy horse for example. I have used spurs years ago in the short term but again I questioned why and decided I didn't like them, feel they're a bit nasty if I'm honest so never use them - dont even own a pair anymore.
 
YorksG said:
However the person you may be riding for, wants you to carry a stick, I would presume that you would have the self control to carry one without feeling the need to take short cuts and use it innapropriately.
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That is why I won't be riding for them :)

I have my way and, they have theirs. Never the twain shall meet, so it seems :)
 
I only really ride riding school horses but the number that go better when you have a whip in your hand without using it is quite astounding. Likewise horses that are bolshy to lead are like dope on a rope in a bridle even when led off a headcollar over the top...

The existence of the possibility of reinforced aids makes a difference to the attitude of the horse.
 
You say yourself the pony is lovely, well trained and responsive. I'd imagine thats a result of the owner schooling with a whip, so the pony has never had to be nagged with legs or been allowed just drag itself into transitions. Perhaps the owner knows the pony will take advantage of a rider without a whip and go dull to the leg or lean on the leg on turns etc. It would be interesting to find out their reasons, if they are pushing it then there must be one. I would much prefer to see a rider giving a quick flip of a schooling whip behind the leg instead of letting a pony be lazy going into transitions etc.
 
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